Economic times affect the Texas Super Racing Series

[racer61]

I don't buy the argument about not changing the shock rule that states "the existing teams have already invested money in these shocks...changing the rule would only cost them more money."

 

Shocks sell fairly well. You can sell these high dollar shocks, buy a set of the new rules shocks and have money left over.

So how much of a loss did you take on your shocks, and have you sold them? You are assuming that they will be able to sell them. How much of a loss did Gunnar take on the latemodel? Not complaining about it, just saying that I dont believe that that is cost effective. But then again this is stock car racing, if its not shocks than we will find something else to spend all of our money on for speed.

 

And why is it that so many people believe that inverting the field is going to cause more wrecks?

[LM-RACER-20]

And why is it that so many people believe that inverting the field is going to cause more wrecks?

 

Because the fast cars in the rear get really PO'd when a slower car starts mirror driving or overdriving trying to keep the faster car behind them. So the slower car gets bumped out of the way ( maybe a wreck ), or the slower car overdrives in the corner trying to keep you from passing and causes a crash. God forbid they let a faster car go by clean.

[gundogC3]

So how much of a loss did you take on your shocks, and have you sold them? You are assuming that they will be able to sell them. How much of a loss did Gunnar take on the latemodel? Not complaining about it, just saying that I dont believe that that is cost effective. But then again this is stock car racing, if its not shocks than we will find something else to spend all of our money on for speed...

Cory, only around 30k....

[racer61]

"And why is it that so many people believe that inverting the field is going to cause more wrecks?"

 

Because the fast cars in the rear get really PO'd when a slower car starts mirror driving or overdriving trying to keep the faster car behind them. So the slower car gets bumped out of the way ( maybe a wreck ), or the slower car overdrives in the corner trying to keep you from passing and causes a crash. God forbid they let a faster car go by clean.

 

You make a good point and probably seen that happen recently, however, even the "fast" guys mirror drive. Being fast right now means making a couple of good laps. But being a good racer means being able not only to pass but being able to get passed. Both departments need help. Fans like to see racing, not follow the leader. After getting tore up a few times may be what some of these guys need to figure out that they dont "own" the place. It worked at longhorn for over 25 years. This track was smaller and had walls.

[Truck99]

So how much of a loss did you take on your shocks, and have you sold them? You are assuming that they will be able to sell them.

 

No they are not sold yet. They would be great on your pro mod!

 

It all depends on how you look at it. To me, that money is already spent. It's not coming back. When those shocks are sold, I will purchase a set of shocks to meet the new truck rules and won't be out any "new" money. I know it's probably flawed economics, but I also know it won't cost us a penny more than we've already spent.

 

And you're correct - this is assuming they sell. But I am confident they will.

[racer61]

So how much of a loss did you take on your shocks, and have you sold them? You are assuming that they will be able to sell them.

 

No they are not sold yet. They would be great on your pro mod!

 

It all depends on how you look at it. To me, that money is already spent. It's not coming back. When those shocks are sold, I will purchase a set of shocks to meet the new truck rules and won't be out any "new" money. I know it's probably flawed economics, but I also know it won't cost us a penny more than we've already spent.

 

And you're correct - this is assuming they sell. But I am confident they will.

CHase, I looked, but because they are all 9" I cant use them on the front. So i would have 4 rears and still need fronts.

And Im not sure there is such a thing as economics in racing. We spend all we can get our hands on, beg borrow and steal the rest. No magic formula, no financial report to go by. And most of us cant spell nor know the definition of it anyway.

[supertx]

I don't have a dog in this hunt but Im wondering why would anybody run a class that they can't afford? just to say there late model drivers? Should the guys that can afford the class be limited to or forced to go run other places like PASS,ASA,etc.etc. look at all the people that have left this area to do just that.There are car owners that can afford to run late models and hire drivers from the lower classes that proved them selfs but they have left also.Bottom line if you keep cutting the cost there will be no late models you might as well just run a grand stock and call it a late model.

[LM-RACER-20]

racer61

You are right indeed. All drivers need to know how to race clean. I myself can mirror drive with the best of them. And believe me. If mirrors are allowed in Sportmod and I race, I will use it if I need to.

Either way you start them, someone will be upset and not like it. Use qualifying and the slow guys never get a chance to run up front. Start by points and the fast guys to the back, then more wrecks and the fast guys get mad because the slow guys hold them up. So there isnt answer to make everyone happy. I would rather qualify each week. Because I know how I am behind the wheel. I dont like to be held up. I will move people. I wont wreck them ( not on purpose ), but they will move over one way or the other. I drive agressive, but not dirty.

[LM-RACER-20]

If you dont cut costs, then there wont be any late models. Everybody always wants to go faster. Faster cost money that they cant afford to spend or dont want to spend.

 

I started in racing at Longhorn more than 20 years ago. Pitted for John Green in the super stock class. Then pitted for Neco ( Naumanns ), then pitted for Tommy Gural. Then started racing myself at THR. I've seen the supers I started with at Longhorn go to all the nice aftermarket stuff, get expensive and die. The streets, move up in name to the super name, then get all the good stuff and die because of cost. The late models at THR got split up when TSRS started and the local late models died. Streets then took on the late model role and took the super stock name. If TSRS cant get affordable, it dies and then the top class is the supers again. Then what happens? Supers are now the premier class and deserve all the good stuff. Then what? It gets expensive all over again and dies.

 

It's just a vicious cycle.

[turbotoddie]

Since I have a dog in this hunt(2 actually), inverted starts would be fine except we have too much speed discrepancy between the front and the rear of the field. In short, on this one groove track, we are going to have cars pushed out of the way because you can't go outside. Result, unnecessary damage. It caused wrecks at SA and it will cause even more at Kyle. In the big picture, the more cars get tore up, the fewer that come back for the next race much less the rest of the season.

 

And, Supertx is right. We can talk about cutting costs all day long but this is supposed to be the premier series. It needs to be a Late Model. As stated earlier, a tire rule and a mandated shock is about all the additional limits we need. However, if its the premier class, it should have a premier purse. None of us race these cars for the purse but it would sure make it a little easier to justify to the wife if we could come close to breaking even on a race night's expenses without being the winner.

 

FWIW, I don't have Penskes but I have a set of shocks from Swenson so I stand to lose a chunk of change as well.

 

Unfortunately, I have to be at work Saturday so I can't attend the meeting but I hope these concerns get conveyed in a positive light and heard by all involved.

 

Todd

[Mary Ann Naumann]

I have not had the time to read all of this thread, but our new Race Director, Terry Barden is looking through it and is looking forward to having a meeting with the TSRS Drivers and Car Owners on this Saturday @ THR. But, I would like to clarify this one statement...

The late models at THR got split up when TSRS started and the local late models died.

TSRS started when the local late models were already a dying class, there were very low car counts at THR & SAS, then TSRS was founded and had 32 cars at one event in the first year, these were not 32 cars running at THR! They were cars from all over the state that came together to create TSRS. Is it an expensive series, what racing is not, if we're in it for the money, we have chosen the wrong sport and that includes the operating of a race track! I know how easy it is to sit back judge and give input and think it is easy to just make changes and it will fix it all, technology does effect any class or series, but there is no one any better at trying to keep the cost down on all classes then Jack Sandefur. So, those of you that truly have a hunt in this series, please join us on Saturday for a sit down and talk meeting with Terry Barden and several of the TSRS Officials.

[LM-RACER-20]

Your right M.A. The count was down and dieng already. But it did pull cars away from it. If I remember right I think this is when Longhorn was still open as well. So that played a small role in car counts too. I think. I've slept since then and the mind is getting old.

[waddy]

take the mirrors and the radios out, and invert the field,,,,,,yee haw,,,,,,,exitement again,,,,,

[Ford27]

From a fans perspective I dont think TSRS is really late models anyway...they are more like a limited. They have to much power and not enough grip to put on a good race to often...not that i havent seen them have a good one.If you want to see true late models racing you go to hmp. I like watchin thr but the lower classes are more exciting because I think the slower cars can run outside a little. Ive been toying with the idea of selling my late thats collecting dust and going to a lower class as well.( crates are expensive too) Now if I can find someone that doesnt want 7 or 8 grand for a camaro. Hope yall work it out

[rebelracewriter]

LMAO @ David....no offense taken

 

Ok I'll roll a few things together here....passing @ THR, inverted fields, driving style(or lack thereof)....

First of all I just roll my eyes and shake my head EVERYTIME I hear "if you invert fields there are more wrecks." Super Stocks seem to do very well with an invert....IMCA ALWAYS inverts, and with the occasional exception, the fast guys ALWAYS make it to the front.

 

But that all comes from drivers respecting one another and/or the cars being different enough in speed to make a clean pass.

 

Everyone knows that the fast way around THR, at this point, is the bottom groove....and guys SET UP to run it.....Now if they were forced to start farther back and SET UP to run the top it "might" work better, plus eventually(in theory) you'd get the upper groove rubbered in enough to be comparative the bottom.

 

A couple other things

 

Shocks....what's the race life of a shock? Granted you may bend/break one, but how often do they usually get replaced as normal PM? If you're getting new ones yearly anyway, why wouldn't a shock rule work?

 

Tires....again I'll go back to my original question....Is the life of a 10" tire greater than the 8"?.....Would passing be easier/harder with 10" tires?...I'd say if the current tire will only last one race, then they need to be scrapped anyway.....That's freaking rediculous!!!!

 

LM20 hit the nail on the head about classes dying.....I've been having a similar conversation about the dirt modifieds......Classes get so expensive to run(racers are there own worst enemy) that tracks can't afford to keep up with a purse/payout to support them and "POOF" they're gone.....I watched it with our Supermodified class in South Bend....and saw the same thing with the weekly Late Models and Sprint classes around Houston when I lived there.....then with the Super Late Models around here.....it reminds me of freaking Obamanomics....Going broke...so spend more!!!! ...Old poker adage....."Don't throw good money after bad."

 

If tracks can't keep increasing purses(which is pretty obvious) and keep the gates open, then racers will need to adjust their mindset and keep their racing costs down to where the purse does justify showing up. If the people want to go faster(usually those with bigger budgets anyway) there are always the higher series like ASA/PASS/etc....If the guys with the unlimited budgets rule the classes the smaller guys just give up.....and that doesn't help anyone...tracks/purses, racers, fans.....

 

<<<steps away from the dais......

[Guest THRRD]

Reb,

 

Could'nt have said it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Terry

[97car]

Amen Reb. I agree the field and start punishing those that don't know how to race from the back to the front cleanly as well as the mirror/spotter drivers. At least then it wouldn't be follow the pole sitter most of the race.

[racer61]

.( crates are expensive too)

 

 

What? Crates are supposed to be the god send for Super Latemodels in Texas.

Wait, where are the supers at again? I forgot.

 

 

 

Im sure this will get me in trouble with someone

[LM-RACER-20]

I personally dont have a problem starting in the back. But, it will cause issues. At least in my class. My car was about .250 per lap faster than the guy in front of me one night and there was no way to get around him without a punt in the rear, which I didnt do. And if I could set up for the outside I would. But at the current lower groove speeds of most cars in my class, it's not going to happen. There is no way to get enough grip going the long way around to make that pass. The field is too fast for that. So we have to bottom feed. THR is not an outside grooce track just by design. NOw I'm not against trying to make that change.

 

Now for IMCA outside passing. Absolutely. I started in the rear for a 20 lap race at SOS and made it to 2nd, got spun by a lap car, went to the back, then ended up finishing 3rd. I think it was about a 16 car field. But on dirt there are many grooves to run in. I'll run top to bottom on dirt, I dont care and I dont set up for either. I go wherever the other car isnt and make the pass most of the time. Thats the advantage of dirt racing. It just doesnt work on asphalt. At least at THR.

 

And I agree with no mirrors or spotters in ALL classes. Let the drivers race for it.

[Blue Moon Motorsports]

...And I agree with no mirrors or spotters in ALL classes. Let the drivers race for it.

 

NEED mirrors and spotters in all classes!

[LM-RACER-20]

The only thing that spotters and mirrors are good for is blocking. I someone needs to have a spotter tell them theres a car on the side of you or your clear on a short track, that person shouldnt be racing.

 

 

You gotta FEEL it.

[Blue Moon Motorsports]

The only thing that spotters and mirrors are good for is blocking. I someone needs to have a spotter tell them theres a car on the side of you or your clear on a short track, that person shouldnt be racing.

 

 

You gotta FEEL it.

 

True to a certain extent...BUT...Spotters are good for safety and avoiding wrecks. If you are going to block, you are going to do regardless of a spotter, et al. There are arguments on both sides, but I firmly believe that spotters and mirrors are a boon for safety, and help keep cars/trucks FROM being torn up. Mirrors can tell you what your senses cannot. If you mirror drive, you're still gonna drive like a blockhead if the mirrors are taken out. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I gotta put my 10 cents in.(That's 2 cents adjusted for inflation!)

[97car]

I've seen better racing without mirrors or spotters and inverted fields as well as cars coming from the rear to win on short tracks with cars that are a lot faster then what we have on asphalt.

[LM-RACER-20]

Yea, sorry we got off topic, but it's fun.

[supertx]

I've seen the usac and west cars come here year after year and run a second groove .I've seen Bobby Joe run the outsise one year and won a bunch of races . So is it the experince that let these guys do it or is it that they work on there cars more?