Economic times affect the Texas Super Racing Series

[hray]

Todd,

Racers in the midwest and east coast have been using E85 for several years now with no adverse effects. There was even an article in Circle Track mag about it's benefits. The dirt racers in south TX (McAllen and Corpus) have been using it for almost 2 years now and most of them have been modifying their own carbs. The only problem I've heard is they have trouble getting them to idle correctly. When I talked to Jason about it, he said that's because the idle circuit has to be modified.

As far as the savings is concerned, I've never been able to get by on $60/nite. Our fuel bill was more like $150. That's consistent with most the top running teams. That could be reduced to your $60 figure with E85. We recently ran the McAllen (dirt) Sport Mod race. It was 3 days of racing and we spent over $500 for fuel. That could have been reduced to $120 with E85.

I think it's a big deal for all classes. Things have gotten out of control when race fuel is costing $8 - $9 /gal. Why not allow it along with the other fuels, then if you don't want to run it, don't.

[ProTree]

my 2009 division 4 summit super series modified champion this year used E85 in the tank all season.

[97car]

Go back to running 2-3 heat races 8-10 laps each depending on car count and run a 25 to 30 lap feature. Take out the spotter requirements, this would let the guy race without having to have 5-10 people to crew the car every time he wants to race. The shorter races would lower the fuel and tire costs as well. This would give the crowd something besides just long feature races. I agree with the shock claim as well. They do have palces that mod the carbs for E-85 as well.

[turbotoddie]

Okay, you guys have shown good support of E85 but what compression are these motors running? The point of this conversation is to save money and get TSRS cars on track. You guys are suggesting we go out and buy new carbs and reconfigure motors to utilize a cheaper fuel. As well, I would think since E85 is mostly alcohol, is consumption greater?

 

Todd

[97car]

Not stating to mandate E85, but to allow it as a alternative. Also if they go to running heats and a shorter feature to pay in the heats like it used to be years ago.

[STAGGER77]

You can safely run up to 13.5 : 1 compression with E85. Consumption is about half way between race gas and alcohol.

[abrungot]

Working on some numbers, question about how may laps per gallon on a TSRS Car?

[hray]

Aaron,

When we ran an asphalt mod (engine is same as TSRS but car is lighter) we averaged 10 gal for a 75 lap race. That includes yellow as well as green laps. TSRS cars are heavier and they usually have more yellow laps (LOL). Hopefully you'll hear from a TSRS team, but I bet I'm pretty close.

[abrungot]

Well here are the numbers:

 

Total number of individual cars showing for TSRS last 3 races of season:24

Average per Race: 15.3

Total Number of laps Ran (practice/Qual/Feature): 4,651

Total est. Gallon's of fuel: 775

6 cars had greater than 300 laps on track: Most being 356

The AVE laps per car: 194

Total Estimated Fuel cost $6,046

On Average, there were 21% more laps completed for the spectacular than the other 2 races

If a Set of tires lasts 100 laps then 404 Tires were used up @ 134/tire (includes labor) $54,136

Aprox $6,000 in pit passes was sold for this 3 race period.

Only 9 race teams participated in all 3 race events.

 

So here goes.. its clear to me that TSRS Needs a tire rule, yes the above is an estimate, but Clearly that is where the focus needs to be for TSRS to field high car counts.

 

And yes in 2010 I will have a dog in this fight as i am working to help field a Rookie with nearly 9 years racing experience.

 

Lap Counts and car counts were pulled from Mylaps.

 

On Edit: If there was a 2 tire a race rule & assuming all cars had already got the initial allotment, 96 tires would have been bought @ a cost of $12,328...

[hray]

Aaron,

Apply the same thinking to fuel. If the cars burned 775 gal of 110 totaling $6046, they would have burned 968 gal of E85 totaling $2061. $4000 savings in 3 races. Then apply the same thinking to shocks. Conservatively 9 teams X 4 shocks X $800/shock = $28800. Cap shocks at $300 would = $10800

Your tire senerio goes as follows. Assuming the teams had to buy 4 tires to start with, then 4 more for the other 2 races (2/race) it looks like this: 9 teams X 8 tires X $134 = $9648

I agree the biggest $ amount is tires, but a little here, a little there, it all adds up.

[abrungot]

Rusty,

Here is my only arguement about the Shock deal.

Some if not a majority of team's already have these higher $ shocks,

So if you go to a shock rule, then any team that has them will incurr cost to get the new mandated shock.

Also how do you control someone paying to have'n them re-valved?

 

None the less a harder rule to impliment.

If you put a Tire rule in play for 2010 season, hopefully funding & advanced notice will allow for a Shock rule in 2011.

Also not sure what the cost are to get a motor to run on E85, and also not sure the life a motor on E85.

Not sure if motor builders around here have the "E85 Experience" So I would think maybe that is a future effort not a Next year thing.

 

Tire rule is easy to implement, (cost some man power to police)

 

Also not sure about a cost savings, however what about a gear rule in TSRS to neutralize HP?

Also may help 2 groove racing, being if you run the outside you would be able to keep the RPM up?

[mgr61]

Aaron

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the tires we ran the year before last simply would not last two races. We tried but after one night racing and practice laps the next race our tires were showing cords. Two tires a night would help the budget but it's just not possible. With these tires you must budget for four tires per weekend. I still think a purse that would pay the top 10 to 15 cars enough to buy tires would bring cars out of retirement. Any team would like to see themselves as a top 10 or 15 car so they would see their possibilty of paying for tires as a given. most teams don't necessarily see themselves as a top 2 car so they expect not to pay the tire bill every race and go fishing instead. The problem still remains how to pay that kind of purse and thats where Mary Ann needs help in race sponsership. IMHO

[hray]

Aaron

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the tires we ran the year before last simply would not last two races.

 

That's why you have to change to a tire that will last! You can't keep running the F53. It's a good TRUE racing tire, but it's only designed for 1 race.

[racer61]

Aaron

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the tires we ran the year before last simply would not last two races.

 

That's why you have to change to a tire that will last! You can't keep running the F53. It's a good TRUE racing tire, but it's only designed for 1 race.

 

 

Somebody get the # to TowelCity Retreads!

They last all year!!

[Truck99]

It's already been stated, but to restate it - a tire rule is needed, but shorter features and a more durable tire would have to come with that. If THR wants to stick with Hoosier, the 970 is a good choice. Once everyone gets past the negative stigma of the "treaded" tire thing, they might grow to like them. We have done back to back comparisons with the 970 and F53 on our super stock. Granted, the setup was not optimized for the F53, but we did not pick up any time in our test using the F53 over the 970.

[turbotoddie]

Also not sure about a cost savings, however what about a gear rule in TSRS to neutralize HP?

Also may help 2 groove racing, being if you run the outside you would be able to keep the RPM up?

 

 

The eight in tire controls hp. A gear rule is unnecessary. Two groove racing will not exist with limited hp or 8 in tires. These are heavy cars and the two barrel limit doesn't allow for enough hp to complete a pass on the outside.

 

As for shocks, we don't know who has what nor who is going to run a late model for Kyle only. I assume some of the youth is heading to Houston to run crates and some other folks are rumored to other tracks or surfaces. Rule changes have cost all of us in the past, what is the difference now?

 

just another .02

 

todd

[Truck99]

I don't buy the argument about not changing the shock rule that states "the existing teams have already invested money in these shocks...changing the rule would only cost them more money."

 

Shocks sell fairly well. You can sell these high dollar shocks, buy a set of the new rules shocks and have money left over.

[hray]

I don't buy the argument about not changing the shock rule that states "the existing teams have already invested money in these shocks...changing the rule would only cost them more money."

 

Shocks sell fairly well. You can sell these high dollar shocks, buy a set of the new rules shocks and have money left over.

 

My feelings exactly.

[LM-RACER-20]

I dont agree with outside passing being better with a harder tire and more hp. Most classes out there already cant really pass on the outside. Not cleanly anyway. A harder tire, shorter features and such is more cost effective for sure. But will not open up outside passing. When you have the talent and setup knowledge that a lot of teams now have, the cars will be running at max potential and this will be on the bottom. The days of the outside lane left us long ago. I used to pass tons of cars on the outside. But thats before they all figured the setup out. Just as our sportmod class went. The first night on the track for us, there wasnt an outside line. All the cars were running pretty much to thier potential and no one could have passed on the outside. No one has that much more car or skill to make that pass happen.

 

so in short. Forget about the outside line. Thats gone and I really dont see a way to get it back. You cant back off on driver skill and team knowledge. Just work on makeing it cheaper to race and go have some fun. Stop being so serious about racing here in Texas. Everyone should understand your doing this for fun. Not a NASCAR ride. You could probably win the lottery first. Texas is not a steping stone to the big time. Never will be.

[ProTree]

give me some vht sp165 and i'll get your outside groove back

[debwill]

As stated in a couple of other threads, Terry Barden (new TSRS Race Director) will be holding a meeting for the TSRS Late Model drivers following the general THR/TSRS Drivers' Meeting on Saturday. He will hold an open discussion with all TSRS Late Model drivers to get their input on making the series more affordable.

[abrungot]

Here is a different angle on outside passing,

How much of the lack of passing or passing in the outside groove in the upper classes is due to the fast cars starting in the front..

 

Invert the field and you will have a entirely different race.

[xzgqh6]

Here is a different angle on outside passing,

How much of the lack of passing or passing in the outside groove in the upper classes is due to the fast cars starting in the front..

 

Invert the field and you will have a entirely different race.

 

Inverting the field will cause more wrecks............lighten the cars up to 2700 lb.....go to the treaded Goodyear or Hoosier and go racing...............changing motor rules and shock rules will cost everyone more money.........if you have a team with high dollar shocks then makem add weight say 50 to 100 lbs.............drastically changing rules will cost everyone money...............taking weight off the car cost time and is easier on tires and equipement...............We race in the pro mod class and we get 4 weekends of racing out of the Goodyear treaded tire..............once you get 4 to 6 good laps on the stickers the tires do not fall off..............this is with a crate motor..............

[hray]

.........if you have a team with high dollar shocks then makem add weight say 50 to 100 lbs.............

 

You may have hit on a good idea. Institute a shock rule of some kind, but give the teams 1 year to comply. During that year, put a weight penalty on those cars that don't comply.

[mgr61]

A good way to phase out the expensive shocks or even the less expensive shocks (everyone would need to buy new shocks so even the people satisfied with there old "cheap" shocks would still be burdened with replacing something that's not broken) is to ;

#1 put a time limit on replacing the shocks (one year as suggested)

#2 put a penalty on the expensive shocks

#3 everyone not replacing the shocks right away has to claim one set ( this set would the only set they could use until they comply with the new series shock), somehow identify the shock or better yet confiscate them after the races and keep them at the track.

as those shocks get bent or worn out or they are ready to replace with the mandated shock they can do so even one at a time if nessesary.

I think a reasonably priced double adjustable non-rebuildale shock would give everyone the ability to adjust with anyone overspending.