hray Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 .........I just don't see the track buying anyone's engine for fear of making someone mad. ......thanks Todd I already figured this one out. Buy a junker crate (about $1500 on ebay), freshen it and add some cheater parts (solid lifters, bigger cam, port and polish etc, etc) - another $1500. Get noticed by THR, then they claim for the price of a crate $5295 for a 604. Voila, I just made $2295. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Rusty Somebody will try this. You wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 tech dept could check the motor before claiming it,see it's illegal,remove the owner/driver off the property and out of the series and tell them they are not welcome back to the track,then people get the idea you're not playing games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 tech dept could check the motor before claiming it,see it's illegal,remove the owner/driver off the property and out of the series and tell them they are not welcome back to the track,then people get the idea you're not playing games. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 tech dept could check the motor before claiming it,see it's illegal,remove the owner/driver off the property and out of the series and tell them they are not welcome back to the track,then people get the idea you're not playing games. I agree. I second the motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Most places give you a weight break (houston 40#) for running an non-altered crate. Not being able to rebuild your $5 or $6 thousand dollar crate does not make it economically feasible to run a crate. However, by making it an option, it does quiet some of the people trying to implement the new technology and save a few bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Most places give you a weight break (houston 40#) for running an non-altered crate. Not being able to rebuild your $5 or $6 thousand dollar crate does not make it economically feasible to run a crate. However, by making it an option, it does quiet some of the people trying to implement the new technology and save a few bucks. It is common knowledge that crates that have been rebuilt are rarely, if ever, "non-altered." Someone running an unaltered, straight-from-the-factory crate against the teams that have spent thousands of dollars on their "unaltered" rebuilds, loses. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modracer Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 No offense but I can't see the track spending $5400 to claim a motor. It just doesn't mske any sense to do so.They could use that money for other bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Most places give you a weight break (houston 40#) for running an non-altered crate. Not being able to rebuild your $5 or $6 thousand dollar crate does not make it economically feasible to run a crate. However, by making it an option, it does quiet some of the people trying to implement the new technology and save a few bucks. It is common knowledge that crates that have been rebuilt are rarely, if ever, "non-altered." Someone running an unaltered, straight-from-the-factory crate against the teams that have spent thousands of dollars on their "unaltered" rebuilds, loses. Nick All the more reason to adopt a policy like THR has - only factory original GM crates with GM etched bolts (not RM etched, if they even exist anymore), no rebuilding allowed. I know this type of policy won't sit well with people who have already had their motors rebuilt, but look at it this way - the cost of a new factory original is not much more than the cost of a rebuild. Don't kill me for this guys, just voicing my opinion about something that should help racing in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Does GM rebuild these engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyman85 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I agree with you Chase, but unfortunetly the RM etched bolts are out there - very scare, but a few "side" mechanics do have them. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but doesn't it really come down to money and morals?? (Like usual in racing?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Does GM rebuild these engines? I don't know. Would be nice if they had a core exchange wouldn't it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I agree with you Chase, but unfortunetly the RM etched bolts are out there - very scare, but a few "side" mechanics do have them. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but doesn't it really come down to money and morals?? (Like usual in racing?) The RM bolts would not be acknowledged for the same reasons seals would not be - only GM etched bolts would be accepted as evidence that the motor is factory original. Even that is not perfect. We all know that anything can be had with the right amount of money or resources. But it's better than the alternative. PAPA - no they don't. GM has stepped out of the crate motor rebuilding business. That is why they do not supply the RM "reman" bolts to rebuilders any longer, among other reasons. GM's take on the motors is that they are not intended to be opened up. At least that's my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I must of missed something. You want to mandate a factory produced crate engine, from a factory that no longer produces them? The new generation of crates are coming from other builders such as McGunnegil. Most all the crates running up front have had some alteration which makes them a "sealed motor" not a crate. Call a GM motorsports rep and they will tell you the same thing. If a crate motor can not or will not be teched as the built motors (i.e. pull and weigh a crankshaft) than they need to have penalties not given weight breaks. I too can build my own crate and make 465+ hp and by my own bolts to seal it with and instantly gain 1/2 a second too knowing that the crates do not get teched. Of coarse this is all just my own opinion and it is not directed towards anyone, although I agree with Nicks last comment. Priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I must of missed something. You want to mandate a factory produced crate engine, from a factory that no longer produces them? The new generation of crates are coming from other builders such as McGunnegil. Most all the crates running up front have had some alteration which makes them a "sealed motor" not a crate. Call a GM motorsports rep and they will tell you the same thing. If a crate motor can not or will not be teched as the built motors (i.e. pull and weigh a crankshaft) than they need to have penalties not given weight breaks. I too can build my own crate and make 465+ hp and by my own bolts to seal it with and instantly gain 1/2 a second too knowing that the crates do not get teched. Of coarse this is all just my own opinion and it is not directed towards anyone, although I agree with Nicks last comment. Priceless Cory, where did you hear that GM is no longer producing these motors? I've heard the same rumblings, but they are still readily available from GM dealers with GM etched break-away bolts. If you were talking about my comments above, I said that GM is no longer in the "rebuilding" busines. Building them brand new is apparently still alive and well with GM. The one we recently purchased has a placard on it from GM that indicates it was built in August of 2009. The sealed motor you mentioned is a completely different animal altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modracer Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 GM has never been in the rebuilding business. They have only authorized others to rebuild them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 GM has never been in the rebuilding business. They have only authorized others to rebuild them. You are right. I used the wrong wording. I didn't mean to suggest that GM ever actually rebuilt these things. What I meant was that GM used to take a role in the rebuilding process by making and issuing the sealing bolts that were "RM" etched. I don't know how long that lasted, but it's not taking place any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks Chase, I stand corrected, I guess I misread something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted December 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Chase, GM announced a couple months ago in Circle Track mag that they are considering using a different type of seal bolt that is harder to duplicate. No details other than the bolts would be specific to each engine. No word on how they would do that other than some sort of codeing. How tech officials would verify them was not disclosed. The problem is rampant. RM bolts are available on ebay and RJ for as low as $100. Any track that does not tech the crates are either ignorant of the ability to cheat these motors or they just don't want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 There are a lot more open motors busted for cheating than there are crates or sealed. There are a lot of series and tracks that are having little to no problems with the package. People will always find a way to break the rules if that is what they want to do. The whole crate/sealed engine concept is mainstream , and next you will see fuel injection. Keeping up with technology is challenging, but it has to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 OK ..Im confused and maybe I missed something. When the crate motor wears out or breaks then its just a huge paper weight? It cant be rebuilt and be considered as an open motor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 You can run it pretty much anywhere but Kyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundogC3 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 You can run it pretty much anywhere but Kyle. I wasn't going to geton here anymore, but if that's the case.....guess what???????? 1 or 2 truck's at Kyle next year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 You can run it pretty much anywhere but Kyle. I wasn't going to geton here anymore, but if that's the case.....guess what???????? 1 or 2 truck's at Kyle next year.... At some point in the meeting, they said the no-rebuilding rule did not apply to the trucks - the truck rules are the same as HMP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted December 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 There are a lot more open motors busted for cheating than there are crates or sealed. ...... That's because most tracks with crates don't tech them. How can you catch a cheater if you don't tech? As has been clearly noted on here, just because there are seal bolts on the engine doesn't mean it hasn't been cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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