USRA23TRUCK Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 control cost ,when they went to the american racer from the hoosier in the truck series, it did 2 things in my opinion 1. drove the cost up for tires #2 put the 305 at a slight disadvantage, because you can get the power off the corner with the slick tire to work with the 350, as where it was a little more tricky with the hoosier. the times are faster from last year, and thats even with a hundred pounds added to it. all that being said it was pretty competitve last year. the problem is people are always changing something. I thought the hoosiers where fine, and it saved all the racers money. so thats not controling the cost of racing at least for the truck touring series. ok i will shut up now., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrungot Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 when THR had Late Models.. Trucks were allowed to run with the late models.. They were just a tick slower but could hold thier own.. Ask Todd M. He raced his truck with the latemodels.. if trucks got rid of the 4link rear.. i think it would be a pretty close fight. << No techie.. just observation>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Let's stay on track here (no pun intended), trucks are a touring series. This is supposed to be about common rules for local classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 There was to be a race at the end of 2004 where the trucks were invited by Paul to race with the Sportsman. It seemed like a good idea, but thinking back there wasn't many trucks that wanted to do it... Â That being said, I'll give you your fiberglass nose; but what about fenders, doors, back bumpers and the rest of the car... I'm with the others, keep it the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Shane I'll make ya a bet... If I lose I stop taking photos period anywhere... If I win I get to take your hotrod out for a practice session during one of the first few TSRS races next year. The bet... USRA trucks will NOT run the crate motor exclusively after this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 , Â You cant stop takin pictures, how bout FOR FREE!!!!!!! Thats what we were told halfway thru last year. "In 2007 the trucks will be crates." Â I'm not sure if any of the drivers would want to set out for a practice, you know their not going out there with you in a car....lol... The truck count is down 7 to 10 trucks from the first of last year. I think theyll leave things alone for awhile and I hope their not changing all these rules for the 305's etc., just to trash them next year....... Â BUT it hasnt been written in stone, so who knows what their going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 And I am telling you and everyone else that has a truck that next year the crate will not be the only option... Also if you go dig through the old posts , I think it was on One of Kelly Jr's old posts, you would find it stated there as well... That was as it was told to me by Terry himself about 2-3 months ago. Still want to bet.... Hell if I put up faster times than you did at THR maybe you would put me in a car with all that extra cash you have laying around sure made it easy to get pictures of ya...jk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 YOU AINT RIGHT!!!!!!!!! Â Youll need alil more than a quick finger to turn some fast laps, HOTROD........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Well... We'll see about that...Gimmie some laps and a good baseline time to run and we will have a different bet... Maybe we should start a new thread for this to see what would be a good time for Shane to set for me to beat at THR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 While we're talking about local class common rules, let's not forget about another closely related subject that has been discussed extensively on here. Don't make them so damn "Chevy Exclusive", like they are now. Tweak them in such a way that other makes can be seriously considered when someone decides to build a "local class" car. Papa has done extensive research in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 If everyone could forget about the trucks for a moment, the truck suggestion was an afterthought, it should account for maybe 5% of this tread and it’s becoming the main focus.  I wrote a set of common rules so there would be a starting point for a discussion. I figured it would be easier to start with rules written by an independent, rather than trying to work off the existing rules and have one group say why are we using your rules as a basis instead of ours. I started this tread and didn’t plan on posting the rules I wrote, because the tread died pretty quickly. That told me there wasn’t a lot of interest in common rules, but then the tread started with ROCKSTAN about forcing the track promoters to do this or that, I personally don’t agree with that approach. So I posted the rules, to try to bring the focus away from the promoters and back on the goal. Whether you are a fan/critic of either TD, Mary Ann or the Bakers, they are the people who provide the racing venue that you race on. Have they made mistakes, I’m sure they have, everyone makes mistakes. Bringing up the decisions that they’ve made that haven’t gone your way is like, when you argue with your wife and she brings up something that happened 2 years ago. It doesn’t help, they are trying cut them some slack.  The purpose of this tread is to try to come up with a good base set of common rules, then ask the tracks if they would consider it. That’s step one, second step would be to package it in a presentation, that would show them the benefits that could come from unity among that asphalt track for them. This is their business and for everyone who thinks these people are making money hand over fist, read some of the short track sights, there are a lot more articles about tracks closing than there are about new tracks being built. I personally don’t know their financial positions, but I believe the only HMP is profitable and that’s because of the drag strip! I say good for the Bakers, the common goal in my opinion is to make all of them MONEY!  I know guys are going to state that they are making it off the back gate, look at it this way, the back gate is the only gate keeping the lights on!!!  It would be greatly appreciated if we could get back to the original topic and put the truck discussion on the back burner for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 If everyone could forget about the trucks for a moment, the truck suggestion was an afterthought, it should account for maybe 5% of this tread and it’s becoming the main focus.  I wrote a set of common rules so there would be a starting point for a discussion. I figured it would be easier to start with rules written by an independent, rather than trying to work off the existing rules and have one group say why are we using your rules as a basis instead of ours. I started this tread and didn’t plan on posting the rules I wrote, because the tread died pretty quickly. That told me there wasn’t a lot of interest in common rules, but then the tread started with ROCKSTAN about forcing the track promoters to do this or that, I personally don’t agree with that approach. So I posted the rules, to try to bring the focus away from the promoters and back on the goal. Whether you are a fan/critic of either TD, Mary Ann or the Bakers, they are the people who provide the racing venue that you race on. Have they made mistakes, I’m sure they have, everyone makes mistakes. Bringing up the decisions that they’ve made that haven’t gone your way is like, when you argue with your wife and she brings up something that happened 2 years ago. It doesn’t help, they are trying cut them some slack.  The purpose of this tread is to try to come up with a good base set of common rules, then ask the tracks if they would consider it. That’s step one, second step would be to package it in a presentation, that would show them the benefits that could come from unity among that asphalt track for them. This is their business and for everyone who thinks these people are making money hand over fist, read some of the short track sights, there are a lot more articles about tracks closing than there are about new tracks being built. I personally don’t know their financial positions, but I believe the only HMP is profitable and that’s because of the drag strip! I say good for the Bakers, the common goal in my opinion is to make all of them MONEY!  I know guys are going to state that they are making it off the back gate, look at it this way, the back gate is the only gate keeping the lights on!!!  It would be greatly appreciated if we could get back to the original topic and put the truck discussion on the back burner for now. Very well put.  Trudge on CSR! I believe this is a good thing in the making. It still needs work, but that is what the discussion is all about.  One more thing I noticed about the SS rules. The compression ratio is limited to 10.5:1 but the heads can be cut to 58cc. I don't think those two numbers jive too well together personally. I think it's like the valve lift and valve spring seat pressure rules - you don't really need both. I'd say leave the cc rule in and remove the compression rule, just my .02.  Also, I breezed over the "pure stock" rules. That one might need some work if this stuff were really to be adopted in 07. The tracks don't even have a pure stock class. THR had one but replaced it with the grand stocks. At first glance, your pure stock rules are pretty far off from the current grand stocks.  cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 OR.............leave it alone completly and let the car counts catch up to the rule changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Very well put. Trudge on CSR! I believe this is a good thing in the making. It still needs work, but that is what the discussion is all about.  One more thing I noticed about the SS rules. The compression ratio is limited to 10.5:1 but the heads can be cut to 58cc. I don't think those two numbers jive too well together personally. I think it's like the valve lift and valve spring seat pressure rules - you don't really need both. I'd say leave the cc rule in and remove the compression rule, just my .02.  Also, I breezed over the "pure stock" rules. That one might need some work if this stuff were really to be adopted in 07. The tracks don't even have a pure stock class. THR had one but replaced it with the grand stocks. At first glance, your pure stock rules are pretty far off from the current grand stocks.  cs Thank you,  10.5:1 is another oversight with the 58cc heads, I originally was thinking about 64cc world product sportsman heads with 10.5:1. Problem I ran into was WP makes ford and chevy heads, but dodge was left out in the cold. The comparable dodge heads were way too expensive to try to keep the claim at $3,500. The 58cc heads work with a 11:1 compression ration.  I know the pure stock rules are very different, but I figured the current grand stock cars would get a weight break to make them competitive.  One last thing, this was my thought on why I wrote the common rule the way I did. Someone new wanted to start racing, builds a pure/grand stock. The end of the season if that person wants to move into the hobby stock class, the upgrade is front and rear hoops, heads, intake, carburetor, racing shocks, spring buckets and cutting the rear section of the floor and truck area. Instead of starting from scratch with the car, not to mention all the spares they had would be useless, with they rules even the rims are the same. This way it is a progression from class to class. That’s also why I made the pure stock engine claim $1,000, in my opinion even if you could build the pure/grand stock for a $1,000, having someone claim your engine is a lot less painful than someone claiming your whole car.  JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 OR.............leave it alone completly and let the car counts catch up to the rule changes? According to you every year the rules change so how are the car counts ever going to catch up, the common rules are a proposal to lock the rules for 7 years to let the car counts catch up. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 before you can "lock" them in for 7 years , you want to change them 'again'........... realisticaly , you will be lucky to lock on to a set of rules for at the most 4 seasons, at the most. lets say you convince four tracks to meet an agreement on rules , then mary ann and brian sale THR...........the new owner does not want this set of rules , could even do away with a class to form a new one..........where does that leave you. And the following year Dickerson decides he's had enough of every tom dick and harry telling him what rules they should establish and he sales out. there is a reason these track owners are the owners and there is a valid reason they hire the tech men that they do......USRA is looking for more tech officials , your time could be put to better use if you looked in to that. jmo.............but everyone from the owners to the tech men to the racers are tired of changing.........and you can post til you are red in the fingers but a common set of rules that is exact from track to track already exsist - it's called a touring series. the best you can hope for is somebody forming a semi touring series for streets, sportsman and hobbies...............then all the the talk of running different tracks will be out the window because you will see just how many of them were serious about it to begin with. it may be enough to put on decent races twice a year but not twice a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted May 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 before you can "lock" them in for 7 years , you want to change them 'again'........... realisticaly , you will be lucky to lock on to a set of rules for at the most 4 seasons, at the most. lets say you convince four tracks to meet an agreement on rules , then mary ann and brian sale THR...........the new owner does not want this set of rules , could even do away with a class to form a new one..........where does that leave you. And the following year Dickerson decides he's had enough of every tom dick and harry telling him what rules they should establish and he sales out. there is a reason these track owners are the owners and there is a valid reason they hire the tech men that they do......USRA is looking for more tech officials , your time could be put to better use if you looked in to that. jmo.............but everyone from the owners to the tech men to the racers are tired of changing.........and you can post til you are red in the fingers but a common set of rules that is exact from track to track already exsist - it's called a touring series. the best you can hope for is somebody forming a semi touring series for streets, sportsman and hobbies...............then all the the talk of running different tracks will be out the window because you will see just how many of them were serious about it to begin with. it may be enough to put on decent races twice a year but not twice a month. Your right about the changing of the rules, but I also stated that there would be a 2 year phase in/out period. The last thing I wanted to do was to make racers go out and spend more money and have existing usable parts retired on the shelf. Locked rules for 4 seasons, originally I posted 3 -5 seasons, 4 would be fine. The idea is not to do away with any of the classes, but adapt the existing cars.  Your also right about if there is a new owner in the mix, but at this point I believe it is more likely that a track will close down, rather than a new owner stepping up.  As far as a tech official, I’ll take that as a compliment, SAS is just to far for me to drive every week. I also agree that everyone is tired of change, but I get the impression a lot of people believe asphalt racing in Texas is broken, this is just one suggestion about hopefully getting it back on track. It could also be a waste of time, only time will answer that question.  No one wants another touring series in Texas, there are to many of them already. Common rules would allow racers on their off week at their home tracks an opportunity to race at another track if they were so inclined, that’s all. Big races would be twice a year, not twice a month.  I do like the way you think, keep pointing out problems with the common rules that's the only way we can all fix them!!  JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 What's your ideas on standardizing tires? Not arguing brand, but each track has a different tire (THR - Hoosier, SAS - AR, HMP - Goodyear) and the promoters probably have multiyear contracts with the tire distributors. Changing tires track to track is one of the most expensive parts of racing different tracks. If you get refusal to comply from the promoters in any area it will probably be tires because of $$$$$$$$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Yep, Â When the tracks enter into those kinds of contracts, it kinda like going scuba diving with your feet in 200 lb. blocks of concrete. Â For the tracks, everything is lovely for a little while, then ............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 What's your ideas on standardizing tires? Not arguing brand, but each track has a different tire (THR - Hoosier, SAS - AR, HMP - Goodyear) and the promoters probably have multiyear contracts with the tire distributors. Changing tires track to track is one of the most expensive parts of racing different tracks. If you get refusal to comply from the promoters in any area it will probably be tires because of $$$$$$$$$. I really don't "get" this. Even if the track owners openly hated each other couldn't they all get a better deal by going with one tire company ? Just have an uneasy alliance for the short duration of the negociation. Â This has been a problem since forever. There was a time that I had wide fives with Hoosiers (SAS) , McCreary's for tida and goodyear cup radial (recaps) for the weekly Midland races. My shop looked like a 4 Day tire store...oops, old reference...think Discount tire today. Â It's like ole Sarge says, whether or not IMCA is your thing or not doesn't mean there aren't things to be learned from their success. How many tracks do they have that run the same tire? JMO Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Maybe I'm really stupid about this sort of thing, but why do tracks have to enter into contracts with ANYONE!. Are they in the racing business or the tire business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Maybe I'm really stupid about this sort of thing, but why do tracks have to enter into contracts with ANYONE!. Are they in the racing business or the tire business? BOTH!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted May 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 What's your ideas on standardizing tires? Not arguing brand, but each track has a different tire (THR - Hoosier, SAS - AR, HMP - Goodyear) and the promoters probably have multiyear contracts with the tire distributors. Changing tires track to track is one of the most expensive parts of racing different tracks. If you get refusal to comply from the promoters in any area it will probably be tires because of $$$$$$$$$. Excellent point, I don’t know the specifics of the tire contracts the tracks have, but your right each track seems to be running a different tire. One of my thoughts was to base the tire rule off a tire durameter reading, hopefully this would allow the tires produced by the different tire manufacturers to be similar in tire wear and lap times. When we ran the NASCAR modified in the northeast, all three tire manufactures were allowed, Goodyear, Hoosier and Mc Creary (American Racer) tires, similar compounds. This way the tracks could honor their tire contracts and the racer would still race on the home track tire. There would provision in the rules that states if your are running at a different track other than your home track you would be allowed to race on your home track tire. I would also like to see a harder compound tire, one that would give racers at least 3 weeks on the right rear.  This would take a lot of cooperation on everyone’s part, possible, I don’t know! Short term maybe painful, but long term could help.  As far as the schedule goes, I was thinking:  March HMP and SAS 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, CC and THR 2nd and 4th weeks of the month.  April HMP and CC 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, SAS and THR 2nd and 4th weeks of the month.  May SAS and CC 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, HMP and THR 2nd and 4th weeks of the month.  June THR and CC 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, HMP and SAS 2nd and 4th weeks of the month.  July THR and SAS 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, HMP and CC 2nd and 4th weeks of the month.  August HMP and SAS 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, CC and THR 2nd and 4th weeks of the month.  September HMP and CC 1st and 3rd weeks of the month, SAS and THR 2nd and 4th weeks of the month  October Have the big races, one at each track.  If your home track is racing that night, that’s were you race, if you want to race on your night off, then you have the option. I don’t think all the racers will be traveling, but if they want to run a different track once in a while, the gear and set up would be the only thing they would have to change.  JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Hell with it, I'm going dirt trackin' ......................... tonight, anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Now your making schedules for the tracks...... Do you have a car/truck, work with a team, or a track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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