arts22 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 GOOD POINT HELL LETS MANDATE THE SIZE SWAY BAR AND SIZE SPRINGS AND SCHOCKS YOU CAN RUN. STRAIGHT ACROSS THE BOARD. PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA BUT IT WOULD MAKE FOR AN INTERESTING RACE. THERE IS A LOT SOMEONE CAN DO. I JUST DONT HAVE ANY ANSWERS. ILL JUST GO WITH THE FLOW. I dont think I said have one size for anything..... You race a truck, do you know what the ARTS rules are for the sway bar? If not look at section 3.29.1.... Springs are in section 3.27.1..... Shocks are in section 3.28.1...... ARTS, motor rules on impound or claim section 3.37...... The tech officials and series determinds to impound or claim a motor not another competitor..... SO IF YOU HAVE A SET OF RULES AND GOOD TECH OFFICIALS, WITH STIFF PENALTIES THINGS WILL BE EQUAL AS IN AFFORDABILITY..... So you didnt get beat by Mr. Rich pockets because he has a bigger pot of gold then you its because he out ran you with the same options you have. He just used the options better than you....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Sure....... ill let you claim my 305 that had over $5500.00 put into it for 3500.00. Thats a good one! If i wanted to run a class with a claimer rule, i would run a bomber car on the dirt, a grand stock or SOME OTHER ENTRY LEVEL CLASS. Bet you would like to see a claimer rule in nacscar too. The fact you admit that your engine cost over $5,500, tells me something should be done. From my understanding ARTS started out as a lower level division, it’s the ENTRY LEVEL TOURING CLASS for TEXAS. I also understand that you have already sunk that money into the engine, the rules state that there would be a two year phase in period. Your engine would be exempt from the claim rule for two years. Does that sound reasonable? It’s not that I like claimer rules, it’s just the cost has gotten out of hand and something needs to be done about it. I believe the car counts speak for themselves. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Instead of a claimer rule.... Why not have rules for every aspect of the car and enforce them.... A good tech-man and good set of rules with stiff penalties.... Good point, the claimer rule lets the guy who does his homework reap the benefits, instead of the guy who spends the most money. I don’t care how much you know, if someone spends enough money, he will be faster. We need more input regarding what would be fair. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Claimer rules should be for entry classes. Such as the ones I have mentioned before. I have no problems with the truck rules. The truck series is a fairly ecomonical series to get into. As far as the Hobby stocks to super stocks i dont know the rules. But if you cant afford to move up to the next level of racing, then dont do it. Just because some one knows a few tricks about how to get a few extra ponies out of thier bullet, doesnt mean that they are cheating and dumping thousands of dollars into thier motors. At the racing level of the trucks, mods, and superlates a claimer rule will never be an issue! JMO All we are stating is that the truck engines and the street stock engines should have the same rules. The mods and the super late models are going to crate engine. Do you think it is realistic that the ENTRY LEVEL TOURING CLASS have more expensive engine than the mods and supers? Also, guys are dumping thousands of dollars, you, yourself said you have over $5,500 in your 305. What other division runs a 305? JMO I glad guys are putting in their input!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 ARTS22, I agree with you about having a good tech guy, but remember this is a weekend job for these guys. Racers have all winter to come up with creative ways to bend or break the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRA23TRUCK Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 YA ARTS 22 I KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE, I OWN 2 OF THEM TRUCKS, THAT IST HE 2 AND THE 12 TRUCK . NO THAT WE HAVE THAT CLEAR, I WAS JUST MAKING A SUGGESTION, BUT AGAIN I SAID I WOULD GO WITH THE FLOW. MANDATING SCHOCKS AND SPRINGS WOULD BE A LITTLE OVER THE TOP. AND I REALLLY DONT NEED YOU TO TELL ME WHAT THE TRUCK RULES ARE. BUT THANKS ANYWAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed demon 7 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I don't see how the claim rule would be cheaper. I think if you have $5500 in non claim motor, it would be cheaper than having $3500 in a claimer motor class. In a claimer class, you will have to have 2 $3500 motors($7000) just in case someone wants your motor. It is not feasable to build a new motor in between races and have everything ready, maybe I am slow and like to make sure things are done right? Now, put a $3500 plus swap and you must finish on the lead lap to claim the top 2 motors, that is different, cause you would have a motor to run in the next race if need be. I am also a fan of Crate Motors, and if you tech the non crate motors real hard, more people will swing towards the crates! I am one that does not like being beat by the almighty dollar!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockStan Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 speed look at my car it is a big ass 4 door caprice that weighs 3700 lbs with out me in it and only 46%rear with me . i ran the black beast and every time came in the top 5 and sh.. i would sell that motor cheap cause it is all from paw i think it cost like 1200 total the almighty dollar doesnt have anything to do with it steven osborn won san antonio and his car is worth about well i think he would pay around 400 to haul it off lol and he came from the back. i personally am a big fan of the claim rule. it is implied to even out the playing field and you can not get a tech man that is fair to everyone the same any more they all have there "favorites" so to speak i guess you could say. what is killing short track racing is the loose teching that is going on and the rule "to save money" that is horse crapyou can install all the money saving rulesyou want but joe blow is still gonna go and buy a $10,000 enclosed trailer and by the end of the year he is gonna be broke from making trailer payments and his gas bill from pulling that trailer. if you want to make it fair install the imca claim rule and your tires must be street legal and cost no more than a discount tire special 4 for $99 stock springs and auto parts store shocks off the shelf or just install an exhaust rule of no larger then 1 1/4 " thatll slowem down but this is jmo and stick that in your pipe and smoke it oh yea CRATES SUCK for the workin engine builders in the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 YA ARTS 22 I KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE, I OWN 2 OF THEM TRUCKS, THAT IST HE 2 AND THE 12 TRUCK . NO THAT WE HAVE THAT CLEAR, I WAS JUST MAKING A SUGGESTION, BUT AGAIN I SAID I WOULD GO WITH THE FLOW. MANDATING SCHOCKS AND SPRINGS WOULD BE A LITTLE OVER THE TOP. AND I REALLLY DONT NEED YOU TO TELL ME WHAT THE TRUCK RULES ARE. BUT THANKS ANYWAY. WOW 2 trucks.....LOUD AND CLEAR........ So you were just being funny with a suggestion like that. ...... I thought you only ran one track thats why you suggested mandating parts..... I dont remember the 2 or 12 trucks running all the tracks with the trucks last year..... CSR, yes being a tech official is only a part time job but thats not an excuse for a series or track not to have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonesome Ford Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Personally, given the resources of comming from a Ford racing family... I can build a 302 or 351 cheaper than what the crate 350 costs. Plus, not have the headaches involved with having a "certified rebuilder" rebuild it for any reason it may not run right. I've used the head gasket example before. Crate- pull engine, take to rebuilder, hope he gets it done in time, pay him, reinstall engine & tune. Build your own - pull heads off with the engine still in the truck, replace head gaskets, reinstall heads, start & tune. To me, the more cost effective, efficient way is the latter. I'm not saying get rid of the crates, but dont punish those who currently run 302s, 305s, etc and make all of this equipment obsolete. Where else can we race these engines & be competetive? Claimer rule? well, I dunno. Not a huge fan of it in a series like the trucks, but who knows. I still believe with all the money being spent elsewhere, they could set some aside & hire a great tech official to take care of the tech problem. Jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRA23TRUCK Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 hhmmmm where you been the last 2 races. and if i remember right the last time i saw your truck run was it bill hamilton that drove it. No, i was being somewhat serious about the springs, but that would be to hard to do. I really dont want to fight on this forum, but I would like to see you at the track "thunderhill" you have a nice truck shane woulld like to see you come out more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed demon 7 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Don't get me wrong, I don't run a crate, I have a $1500 home built jobber, and I run with the crates. I agree with no crates in the lower classes, I am talking about the truck class, and the touring class. I like the ASA deal with the 400 crates, you can put your money into the car and not worry about the motors. At that level, you have the money to have a backup, cause you are not spending $20K on motors. As for claims, hell claim shocks, springs, and all that good stuff. For what I am about to spend on shocks, I wouldn't be doing it if I knew I could get them claimed!!! As for running that big 3700lb car in the top 5, great going. You got your car set up and you know how to drive it. I just know when I ran on dirt, my $1500 motor ran top 5, but it was the $4-6K motors that always won. I am new to the asphault and I like what I see, my driving and set up is as inportant as my motor and I make up a little more each week as I learn(Only raced 3 races so far on Asphalt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 hhmmmm where you been the last 2 races. and if i remember right the last time i saw your truck run was it bill hamilton that drove it. Nope, the last time you seen my truck run it was Jody Buzbee. They bought it after the last truck race at HMP, now that we have that clear................ I take it you only go to SAS if the last time you saw my truck run was when Bill drove it....... maybe thats why I dont remember the 2 or 12 truck...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRA23TRUCK Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I understand that clears a lot up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigfat Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 If Jody is his Reaaaaaal name I bet he's one hell of a driver. Sincerly, Shameless 105 HP caprice classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I don't see how the claim rule would be cheaper. I think if you have $5500 in non claim motor, it would be cheaper than having $3500 in a claimer motor class. In a claimer class, you will have to have 2 $3500 motors($7000) just in case someone wants your motor. It is not feasable to build a new motor in between races and have everything ready, maybe I am slow and like to make sure things are done right? Now, put a $3500 plus swap and you must finish on the lead lap to claim the top 2 motors, that is different, cause you would have a motor to run in the next race if need be. I am also a fan of Crate Motors, and if you tech the non crate motors real hard, more people will swing towards the crates! I am one that does not like being beat by the almighty dollar!!!! The $5,500 non claimer engine would be grand fathered for two years than it would fall into the same category as the claimer engines. This let’s racers use their existing engines for two years instead of having a boat anchor in the corner of the garage. Regarding the two engine question and the feasibility of building an engine between races, a lot of trucks that I’ve seen for sale come with a spare engine with tells me most guys are building two now. Also, let’s say you have only one engine and it blows, you have to build another engine in between races anyway, this way you should have the money in hand to replace it. When I raced 90% of the field used two engine builders, both had house engines incase someone exploded an engine on Saturday night they could be back on the track the next week. The swap idea is something we could and should look into. I couldn’t agree more with you about not liking the fact of being beat by the almighty dollar!!!! Keep the ideas flowing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 CSR, yes being a tech official is only a part time job but thats not an excuse for a series or track not to have one. I agree, but we need to explore other alternatives, because tech guys do not have the time to be ripping your car apart every weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 As for claims, hell claim shocks, springs, and all that good stuff. For what I am about to spend on shocks, I wouldn't be doing it if I knew I could get them claimed!!! That's my point, if there weren't guys spending a fortune on shocks, you wouldn't have too. This keeping up with the jones to stay competitive is killing short track racing. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 But if you cant afford to move up to the next level of racing, then dont do it. Just because some one knows a few tricks about how to get a few extra ponies out of thier bullet, doesnt mean that they are cheating and dumping thousands of dollars into thier motors. That’s one way to look at it, the other side of the coin is if your spending $5,500 on an engine, maybe it’s time you move up a division. As far as a few tricks to get a few extra ponies , if everyone had $3,500 to spend the guy with the tricks should still be the fastest and I would think it would much more of an accomplishment. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey741 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Just a question, If the guys who are winning are doing it with mostly horsepower, (I gather this since most of the posts revolve around engine claiming, tech/cheating), why is there no real difference between the 400 hp crates and the super latemodel engines? I mean relative to times on the tracks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrss1 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 as far as horsepower goes. it is a great thing to have but it does not make you fast. getting thru the corner makes you fast. ill use my same two references again. watch bobby teer or cary stapp. yes they get down the straightaway very strongly but when they get to the corner you never here them slide a tire. hard work pays off. as far as the engine claim/swap goes. my biggest concern is that a racer feels his engine is getting tired and all he has to do is claim somebody that has a fresh engine. that is what scares the hell outa me. again i am glad this has been brought up. maybe something good will come of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey741 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I agree, One advantage of horsepower is the ability to make up for poor handling by better acceleration in the straights. When the Houston Late Models were first run three years ago the times were only .3 off Romco. The problem was you could not make up for mistakes in corners therefore you could not compete with a huge horsepower disadvantage. There seems to be a point where horsepower advantage is minimized. My question is, Has anyone here been involved at a track where a claimer rule was used for a long period of time and if so how often was a claim actually made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I agree, One advantage of horsepower is the ability to make up for poor handling by better acceleration in the straights. When the Houston Late Models were first run three years ago the times were only .3 off Romco. The problem was you could not make up for mistakes in corners therefore you could not compete with a huge horsepower disadvantage. There seems to be a point where horsepower advantage is minimized. My question is, Has anyone here been involved at a track where a claimer rule was used for a long period of time and if so how often was a claim actually made The problem isn’t the horse power, it’s everything that goes with it. It’s a trickle down effect, the best way I know how to put it is, take a four cylinder mustang and put a 600 horse power big block in it. Great, now you have all this horse power, but now we have to spend money on a better transmission, rear end, suspension, brakes the list goes on and on. One of the other points people don’t like to bring up about crate engines is that 400 HP puts a lot less strain on the drive train, suspension, brakes and chassis than 600 HP. THAT’S THE PROBLEM WITH SHORT TRACK RACING TODAY, RACERS HAVE ASKED FOR JUST A LITTLE HERE AND JUST A LITTLE THERE, PUT IT ALL TOGETHER AND YOU HAVE JUST SPENT A FORTUNE!!!! I don’t know if the claim rule will be the answer, but just like the crate engines in the late models, I feel it is a step in the right direction towards keeping local tracks and racers a float. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey741 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I also believe it is a step in the right direction. I was just commenting on the fact that most of the objections raised by those against crates and claim rules seem to be concerned with people cheating in their motor or talking about how much it cost to build one. The concern seems to be don't take away my advantage (it cost xxxx.xx to build my motor) and I don't want anyone to claim it for yyyy.yy . If every one knows how much you can spend or chooses to risk being claimed for less than was spent, take the risk or not. Your decision! I have no experience with a claim rule but I would like to hear from some who has. Lets hear how it works in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted April 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I also believe it is a step in the right direction. I was just commenting on the fact that most of the objections raised by those against crates and claim rules seem to be concerned with people cheating in their motor or talking about how much it cost to build one. The concern seems to be don't take away my advantage (it cost xxxx.xx to build my motor) and I don't want anyone to claim it for yyyy.yy . If every one knows how much you can spend or chooses to risk being claimed for less than was spent, take the risk or not. Your decision! I have no experience with a claim rule but I would like to hear from some who has. Lets hear how it works in the real world. I've had a little experience with claim rules, if you choose not to except the money you loose the points and the money from that particular night. The person who got claimed was Tommy Baldwin ( yes, the cup crew chief), it was a charger car at Islip Speedway around 1984. The claim amount was $1,500 and someone claimed his car, his father Tom Baldwin didn’t accept it and was ranting and raving about unfair it was that their car was being claimed. He was so upset because he had over $5,000 in the car and didn’t think it was fair. My point is that if you know what the claim amount is and you can realistically build a car, engine or shocks for that amount, you should care if it gets claimed, it’s the guys spending their way into victory circle that get upset. Let’s say for argument sake we have a division with ten equal cookie cutter cars and I finished last, at least I would know that it’s me that needs to improve and it’s not that the other guys are out spending me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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