COMMON RULES

[SASPEEDRACER24]

Budman,

 

Was either of those two links supposed to be better than the other?

[hray]

Budman,

 

Was either of those two links supposed to be better than the other?

Can you get the stats of each race like what is posted on the HMP site on any SAS or USRA site about their races? I think that was the point of the comparison. One of those 2 sites is catering to the racer. In my business it's called customer service--something that is pretty much lacking at most tracks that I've been to. So much so that when you do go to a track that caters to racers you notice something is different. You may not recognize what it is, but you know something is different.

[SASPEEDRACER24]

Racing is no different than any other business.  You offer your customers a quality product and they will come, and be willing to pay a premium price for it.  If you don't, they won't.  It's that simple.

 

Is this a quality product?  

 

Link

HRay,

 

I guess my question was more from a fan's stand point than a driver standpoint. From a driver standpoint of the site Mylaps.com vs. just regular results is awesome I have no idea how hard it is to upload the results to the site but it is set up well. Depending on who you want to call the customer ,driver or fan, you could get a different answer. I was more curious if just by going by the number of classes and cars, If that was how the question was intented as the quality product?

[Budman]

I thought it would be more obvious. The car counts in the features at both tracks look like they should be for heat races, not features.

[hray]

Marc,

You're right about "who the customer is", but if you studied Deming in economics class (who arguably taught the Japanese most of what they know about running a successful business) the progression goes like this: first you need someone to have a track to race on (the promoter or owner), then you have to have someone to race on that track (the racer) because you don't have a product until you have both. At that point the racer is the promoters customer. A track can make it at that point as long as the back gate pays the expenses and the promoter offers a quality product (facilities, purse, etc.) acceptable to the racer. Now comes the fans who become the customer of both the promoter and the racer. Each has to satisfy the fan in a different way. Most tracks run on such a slim margin they can't do without the fan so he/she become necessary but the track and racer are indispensible.

There is a way that the promoter is the racers customer, but no need to go into that.

Bottom line is this; the promoter and racer need each other, but with a given pool of racers and multiple tracks to choose from, the promoter has to treat the racer as his customer or the racer will simply go somewhere else or quit racing eg: the 2005 & 2006 seasons at THR, SAS & HMP. If you wanted to invest your life savings in one of these tracks, which would you choose?

[USRA23TRUCK]

NONE, RACING AROUND HERE IS AN EXPENSIVE HOBBY, THE DAYS OF OLD ARE FOREVER GONE. IT ALL SEEMS TO BE AN ENDLESS MONEY PIT SOMETHING DRAMATIC NEEDS TO BE DONE BY ALL, AND HEY I DONT HAVE ANSWERS I HAVE IDEAS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES, SOME GOOD SOME BAD. I KNOW WHEN MY DAD OWNED THE TRACK HE DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY, FYI HE SOLD IT, THEN GOT IT BACK SOLD IT AGAIN. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THERE IS NO STAYING POWER, AND IM SURE TERRY IS NOT MAKING MONEY, HE JUST LOVES THE STUFF THATS ALL, AND I DARN SURE KNOW US RACERS ARE NOT MAKING MONEY. BUT IT SEEMS TO ME WE JUST CANT GET AWAY FROM THIS DISEASE WE CALL RACING. I WISHED I COULD. MATTHEW

[tqj3]

Hray-

I'd pick Thunder Hill in a heartbeat.

And the economic breakdown is this: tracks are management, racers are contract labor, and they had both better be working together to get money from the real customer, the paying spectator.

The fact that racing is just popular enough to have a small automatic fan base is one of the problems. It lets tracks and series think they're just a little bit away from being profitable if they just keep doing what they are doing, but the reality is they aren't doing anything to grow that small automatic fan base.

[abrungot]

This is not a true statement TQ "but the reality is they aren't doing anything to grow that small automatic fan base. "

 

THR is doing something.. they are investing in their future by investing in JRA kids Club.

The payoff is more long term .. but JRA has already added value back to THR this year based on resources spent last year.

 

Proof is opening night and JRA's Actions and Mailings leading up to the Easter Egg Hunt.. *(100 Families informed about the 5pm start/Easter Egg Hunt. Based on the reaction about 30 - 40% were unaware of the events on that night. If you saw the infield during the Hunt.. you will realize the effect.)

[tqj3]

While your efforts are laudable, Aaron, I stand by my statement.

[abrungot]

for those like me that like to use simple words : Laudable = Deserving commendation; praiseworthy, Healthy; favorable and was also the word of the day on May 29, 2000.

 

As for the track they do have a financial investment in this process: Regular Child Admission 6-12 = $7.00 JRA 6-13 = $3.00

$4.00 per child investment to keep them coming back.. for Years to come..

[oatey220]

Guys,

 

I hate to say this but there are so many different race car divisions that you need a directory just for all the acronyms you see on this site. The herd has been too thinned out. Take a look at what is working all over the rest of the country and what used to work in this part of the country ..............common rules . I think Budman said in an earlier post its a no brainer area tracks should have common rules. What is wrong with having 3 classes 1.late models, super stock 2. novice, hobby stock and 3. pro sedans, mini stock. Race at one track on Friday the other on Saturday. From a spectators view more cars = better show = more fans = and so on .................

Of course it wouldnt be a crime if the rules helped keep the cost down.

 

Don

[hray]

TQ,

You are wrong on this one. First of all, I said the promoter's customers are the racer and the fan, the racer's customer is the fan so we agree on that, but a track can operate without the fan, but it can't operate without the racer unless you have a bunch of fans that like to sit in the stands and watch asphalt cool as the sun goes down. As I said, we need the fan because the profit margins are so low in racing, but you could conceivably design a business model where the back gate could sustain the track.

I'm only trying to point out that a track that caters to the fan and not the racer will utimately fail and that is the path we are on-and no common rules is a hugh contributing factor.

I don't agree with everything in this thread, but what has been proposed would go a long way to improving the situation. I don't mean just what commonsense has said, but Budman, Oatey and all the contributors. We all need to stop being so adversarial and territorial and push this idea forward.

[tqj3]

Hray-

I don't disagree with you, particularly on the direction common sense racing is taking and the input by others, including Budman, Chase Stapp and yourself.

I do think anyone who thinks they can operate a track successfully these days strictly off the back gate better be independently wealthy.

My point is that, like a corporation and its workers, the tracks and racers need to work together to get money from the only paying customer: the spectator.

If you think the tracks have all the money, and the racers just need to get some of it, you'd be as shortsighted as labor unions who think management has the money. It doesn't. We are all supposed to be working together to get the fans to support our business/hobby.

Henry Ford once said, "I don't pay wages. The product pays the wages. I just handle the money."

Track owners and series administrators don't pay for racing. They just handle the money.

[CommonSenseRacing]

Unfortunately, short track racing is not in the top 1000 list of businesses to get into make money. People run tracks for the love of racing, tax write offs, ego, they all have their own reasons why. Last time I checked they bulldoze race tracks to make room for shopping malls, not the other way around.

 

oatey220, your right there are too many division in Texas, but there needs to be more than three. This is more of an issue at HMP than the other tracks, allisons, legends, thunder roadsters and pro sedans (if they still run them). If all the guys bought allison legacy cars they have 30 cars every time they race, but they don't. I know the legends, thunder roadsters and pro sedans run motorcycle engine and the allison cars run a 4 cyclinder, but they are all basically 3/4 versions of cars (maybe not the thunder roadsters, but they run the motorcycle engine).

 

I believe the fans want more than three divisions:

 

1. Having the USRA SLM division run with the Blizard Series is a great idea, especially if they agree to have races here in Texas. I know some people are against it, but the SLM division is dying here and if this helps raise the car counts, how could it be bad, regardless of the reasons for the low car counts.

 

2. What would be nice is if the TSRS adopted rules to allow the crate engine cars and the local SAS late models to be competitive. This way when they race at a track the local guys could race with them, instead of having two or three late model races.

 

3. The two modifieds divisions are close enough to run together.

 

4. The trucks and the street stocks could also run together in the beginning until the car counts are high enough to split them back up.

 

5. A hobby stock division with common rules for all the tracks.

 

6. A pure/grand stock division with common rules for all the tracks.

 

7. The Texas pro sedans

 

8. Allison legacy cars

 

That's eight divisions right there, I think that's plenty. Next step is to work together on car counts.

 

JMO

[SASPEEDRACER24]

Budman,

 

Thats what I was thinking you ment. Hopefully once we get though this rough spot in rules ect. car counts will go up. We shall see. I for one would love to see it happen. More pictures to take.

 

Marc

[RockStan]

i do believe hray is right about that i mean the tracks have been operating for years with no fan base but that has nothing to do with common rules the more i read the more i like about commonsense

[Budman]

I've been thinking about Tommy 33's post a page or two back. So, let's play a little game on here. Suppose I'm the track owner at THR. Convence me why it is in my best interest to have the same rules in my local classes as say SAS. What's in this for me?

[1-Crew]

Budman,

 

What I see is an opportunity for the track to increase car count and bring new blood to the series.

Scene one:

Suppose I'm an excited 19 year old, my first couple of paychecks from the gas station burning a hole in my pocket and convinced I could be the next Dale Jr. I'm in Austin but looking around I see a race car for sale in Corpus Christi. It seems some one got tired of getting slam dunked every week and decided to leave the racing to someone else for a while. I also see last years track champion at Thunderhill is moving up and his car is for sale also.

 

CC car, $1500

Kyle car, $3500

 

Turning my pockets out I find that I have about enough to buy the CC car and still have enough left for the gas to go get it and a set of tires (remember I'm a not so bright pump jockey so the budget end of things hasn't sunk in yet).

 

Eager to hit the track and show the world my stuff, I suddenly find a frowning Jack looking at my car and shaking his head. What's that? Not legal here? I need to have someone take the weight jacks out? but, but.. I can't afford that right now!

 

Scene two:

I finally got the car together, it's legal, seems to be mostly there and I can't seem to get enough of it. I'm seriously hooked! What, not racing tonight?? Limited schedule!! I gotta get a fix.. Wait, SAS is not too far down the road, I can turn the sofa over and dig under the floor mats for loose change that should cover the tow money.. I'm a genius!

 

What do you mean not legal? Wrong wheels?? But I just towed two hours to get here!! You don't understand, I'm jonesing here, I gotta race!! arghhhh!!!

 

Fade out..

[Budman]

Excellent points, but remember, for now, I'm the owner at THR. Why should I change MY rules. How will doing that put more cars on MY track, more fans in MY stands and more money in MY pockets!?!

[oatey220]

Budman,

Unfortunately, changing the rules at THR to match those at SAS would not help much, but it would be in your best interest to sit down with a representative from SAS, and 5 or 6 experienced driver/owners (make sure you include both the poor boy and the rich kid from both San Antonio and Austin). Put all politics and personal agendas aside. Now comes the easy part - as a team, create a common set of rules and a schedule that is beneficial to both tracks. Other considerations to make things go smoothly are using a common promoter, common track operations staff and tech inspector. Remember: as an owner you want to make $$$, Racers like $$$ but race because they love it, and fans in the stands spend $$$ for a good show, so to get what you want and what the racers like your common goal should be to give the fans a good show.

Don

(Sounds simple doesn’t it ……….)

[1-Crew]

In an earlier post it was stated that this is where the negotiations between tracks fell apart. Each track owner, acting in what they believe to be the best interest of their racers, defends the rules that are in place. Unless you are Walmart you can't go to your vendors and say "we will carry your product but only if you change the packaging and pay for replacing the advertising we can't use because if shows the old packaging".

 

The fans don't care what the rules are, they want enough variety to know there is a difference in the classes of cars and they want to be entertained. We hope the majority want that entertainment in the form of close competition within each class..

 

The track owner has to appeal to both the racer and the fan. Both are paying the track owner for use of the facility. It benefits the track owner to have increased car count so he needs to know, is a rule change (in favor of standardization) going to bring in more cars, chase away existing cars, dilute the car count as local racers choose somewhere else to race just because they can, or none of the above.. BTW, if someone chooses to tow 2 hours (minimum to get to the next track) rather than run the local show, the owner/promoter needs to understand why and work on fixing the problem.

 

IMHO I think it can work for the overall good but it has to be tied to more than just standard rules. You have to agree on race dates so the hard core racer can compete at as many tracks as they can afford to run. Each rule should be defensable, why is it better than the way it was (cost, reliabilty, speed, class differentiation, etc.).

 

There will always be someone who argues why a particular rule is going to hurt them or their team. Phase the changes in slowly. Let Joe gas station run what he has without changes for a few races. Put in a special grandfather clause that imposes a fixed penalty for configurations that you want to do away with (weight jacks get a 100 lb penalty) or weight jacks allowed but if installed, crossweight must be 50% +/- 2%. Vortec heads allowed through 2007 with 100 lb penalty, etc. That way no one needs to rush to implement all the changes at once. They can use up existing parts/tires etc. rather than jsut be left with stuff they can't use adn can't sell because no one else can use them either..

 

my two cents..

[abrungot]

If Track A had 40 cars showing every week and only 26 could start the feature. on Rules #1

and Track B has 15 cars showing every week and needed 11 more cars for a full Feature on Rules #2

 

Common Rules would work! Thats not what we got here. If common rules were in play then Track B could offer more Money and Take away from Track A...

 

What we have is..

Track A has 12 cars showing every week and they need 14 more to make a full feature. on Rules #1

Track B has 16 cars showing every week and they need 10 more to make a full feature on Rules #2 *(Who's what doesn't matter)

 

What needs to happen is incentive for the 50+ cars sitting collecting dust to Upgrade and make it out to the track.

Common Rule won't fix that..

 

Excitement, Money, and Customer Experience is whats needed to grow car count in my $.02. The Family needs to reunite and stop the fighting.

[arts22]

What needs to happen is incentive for the 50+ cars sitting collecting dust to Upgrade and make it out to the track.

Common Rule won't fix that..

 

Excitement, Money, and Customer Experience is whats needed to grow car count in my $.02. The Family needs to reunite and stop the fighting.

Exactly, there needs to be more going into the cars setting then into common rules. If there are no cars, the rules are useless... If you only have 25 cars total(sas & thr), how many do you think are going to make the trip every other week, 1 to 5 MAYBE if that..... If 5 cars show up it makes the car count go from 10 to 15. Is that good enough? Also how many cars that are racing NOW will be parked if they cannot afford to change their car to the "common rules car". YES 2 year phase in period- If "rich kid" can afford the new rules right now(and it makes the car better) and "poor kid" cant, then what... YOU LOOSE ANOTHER CAR.....

 

Budman its hard to "PLAY OWNER" when you dont know all the varibles going into their decision making... lol

[1-Crew]

If 5 cars show up it makes the car count go from 10 to 15. Is that good enough?

50% increase, that's good return for any change you make..

Also how many cars that are racing NOW will be parked if they cannot afford to change their car to the "common rules car".

Depends on which way the "common rules" goes but it makes an argument for the KISS principle. If there is a point of contention for something like adjustable suspension, rule in favor of the least expensive alternative (non-adjustable) then add a penalty for adjustable. A car that has it now (while they may like it) now has no advantage over one that does not. If car A that has adjustable suspension doesn't want to play that way, let them move up a class where adjustable is legal.

What needs to happen is incentive for the 50+ cars sitting collecting dust to Upgrade and make it out to the track.

Upgrade is a poor choice, update is entirely appropriate and required.. If they are gathering dust it is the same as if they were towing two hours to run somewhere else, there is a reason and it may not be rules.

 

Did they run out of money, rules won't fix that.

Did they have a disagreement with track management, if it was over a technical issue, rules might help but probably not.

Did they have a disagreement with a fellow competetor, rules won't fix that.

Did they feel like they were chasing a moving target because every time they got good, someone lobbied for a rule change to allow something they didn't have and forced them to join the arms race or sit out, rules can help that!

 

If I have a car gathering dust and I know I can only afford to build it up slowly, I am going to want some assurances that A) anything I do, I'll only have to do once - not change half way through the season because the rules change, and if something happens to the track, I have some reasonable expectation of being able to run the car somewhere else or sell it.

 

Building a race car should be like taking a trip to Vegas, you only put in money you can afford to lose. The reality for many racers is it becomes an investment that you expect to retain some value. That is the benefit to those 50 cars gathering dust..

[thumper]

Rules are the biggest enemy of racing.Too many,too picky.Fighting about a cam lift or a valve size just seems pointless to me.You want cars,go to the salvage auctions,city impound auctions and the green sheets to see what kinds of cars are available.Group them together by size or engine size,keep street tires,forget rules or least most of them,put a claimer of half the average price of car plus trade,and make sure any model can play.Make it where a person can race on Sat for less than $100 a nite and cars will appear.Cars dont have to be fast or fancy,just affordable.Its that simple.Dont get into the stupid argument about what model has an advantage.Race all brands,the evolution of racing will take care of the rest.RULES<RULES<RULES.The fewer the better.Its like politicians.