What is the Value of a Race team to the Track

[abrungot]

* please keep this a constructive conversation.. Nicks getting old.. we need to make sure we don't stress him to bad.

 

#1 I have data to support my assumptions so these are not Hot air..

#2 Every Track situation is different.. [edited out by Nick}

 

 

OK, here it goes..

 

On Average 1 Car... will bring 3 Pit Passes & 11 Grandstand passes..

So with a $12 Frontgate, and $25 back gate.. $207 Revenue before Taxes, and excluding Food and Beverage Sales.

For Ease of math, I am going to Call it $200 per car in revenue.

 

This means for a track to Break even with Just PURSE Payouts, you can not exceed and Average Payout of $200.

Take $500 to win..[edited out by Nick] 500,250,175,125,100,75,50 to last

 

With that.. 10 Cars show up... $1,425 is the purse Payout.. Ave is $143 per car Purse Cost.. less the $30 Registration fee..

That leaves $113 in Purse Cost, vs. $200 in revenue.. ~$870 total Good guy to the track..

 

Now lets take the Pro Lates for the 2nd part of this example...

13 cars on the Entry... $9050 in Purse, with a Per Car Average of $696... Less $125 Entry fee.. Say $571 Purse Cost..

And i think you can add a few extra pit passes maybe 2.. So extra $50 in revenue... So $250 Revenue...

Mean's Pro Lates COST the track (or fellow Racers) $320 a Car, or $4,100

 

OK.. Netting it out..

If ya Run a Class like Chargers, even for $500 to win... Track see $870 Good guy..

Add in ProLates, and they Erase that Good guy, by Costing the track $4,100

 

Net... Without Major Sponosorship.. ProLates is a major Risk to a track.. and "Lower Level Classes" Help keep the doors open...

 

Now with the seeds planted here... THOUGHTS?

[rebelracewriter]

Are you thinking about buying I-37 or what?....lmao

 

On Average 1 Car... will bring 3 Pit Passes & 11 Grandstand passes..

over-estimated, especially grandstands

 

Pro Lates .....And i think you can add a few extra pit passes maybe 2

perhaps...BUT you'll get more in grandstand even if it's just the casual race fan with no team affiliation

 

You're obviously petitioning for the lower classes, and not to diss them, but the Pro/Super Lates, Modifieds, Trucks are more of a fan draw than the slower fender classes.....It's just the way it is, and always has been...Ever notice how many people get up to go to the concession stands/restrooms during the lower class races and return to their seats when the premier classes start?

 

Same thing in many forms of entertainment......IE; It takes far more money to book Metallica than some local cover band.....But Metallica is going to sell more tickets....

[abrungot]

Reb, negative on i37. The 11 is an average of total grandstands vs. Total cars, regardless of class. And you can sell more Metallica tickets.. but because of the cost... you might not be making more money.

[HiTech]

checks and balances .you need all .a total show . on one note its starting to cost the lower levels more to race just in tires and gas alone .you cant buy a decent street tire for under 70.00 bucks .plus pit passes plus food drinks and any other cost involved so an average can cost the lower level 120.00 plus ., the answer is it cost no matter what .you race for fun the checks always go out and never balances ..a track cant structure a purse to please every one .they would have to charge more at the gate and it is high for most now and hard enough to fill the stands half full as it is .i looked at cts photos and notice they had alot of fans in the stands with low car count ..with out the other parking lot show it would have been a lot less .not saying that in a negative way ..

[poorboy]

I think you are close to correct in what your saying, I'm not sure if your numbers are right on but close enough for discussion. I think the pro late models modifiers and trucks bring not only fans but also bring new racers to the track. The new racers are dreaming of one day running in the higher class , they are not usually wanting to run the lower classes forever.

[dancer52]

I think you are close to correct in what your saying, I'm not sure if your numbers are right on but close enough for discussion. I think the pro late models modifiers and trucks bring not only fans but also bring new racers to the track. The new racers are dreaming of one day running in the higher class , they are not usually wanting to run the lower classes forever.

 

New racers just want to race....front runner, go kart....lawnmower.....

 

as far as watching...I would rather watch 25 grand stocks anyday over 6 pro lates.

 

In my opinion...the lower classes almost always put on a better show....they actually have passing....and usually get a little rough...either way, they put on a show.

 

If you really think the fans only want to see the top classes..well we must run at different tracks. Usually the fans go crazy over the bombers...or front runners...usually the entry level class....cause that is the class with the most locals....sure..they might like the other classes...but the fans always like the class with people who they can relate too.

 

Sure..the travelling racers..and travelling fans like the higher classes....but most likely that is because they either know someone in the class or used to race that class.

 

Now if you have a higher class that is really competitive...(and the guys dont have 20 cautions every race) well then...everyone likes that class....but...that is rare to see anymore....seems lately the higher classes cause the most cautions...and only 1 or 2 guys are fast...not to exciting...

 

just my opinions... AJ

[arob]

[edited out by Nick] There is a reason why tracks are getting 80+ cars a race night. From a fan stand point these provide an entertaining and a nice atmosphere to watch racing. I understand what abrungot is getting at with regard to pro lates.It is a risk for the track when the track puts up a good purse thinking they will get 18-20 cars then on race day only8-12 show up.Not enough cars to pay the purse.

[arob]

100% agree with dancer52.

[turbotoddie]

I agree it is a risk. However, poll the average fan that comes to watch a race. Their desire is to see a good car count, good looking cars, speed and some rubbing/racing!

 

Aaron's whole premise is based on counting what car X brings to the track. The real question is, "What brings people to the track that aren't related to a particular driver?"

 

The answer is fast, clean, sharp looking racecars that make a good car count. If the car count is there, the racing will be there(maybe not at the front but there will be racing). For myself, they have to sound good as well(ie V8's for the show class).

 

In my opinion, the biggest risk is how much to invest in the track to make it attractive to the avg fan to get them to leave the air conditioned comforts of home and spend their hard earned money. Race cars will get them there once but what does it take to get them to come back? As well, what does it take to get the racer back?

 

Turbotoddie

[UMSCHEIDRaceServices]

What are you wanting the tracks to change? What tracks have you supported this year? I think ive seen you one time at SAS but not any of the other tracks? Your reason?

 

Just Wondering

JC

[arob]

"What brings people to the track that aren't related to a particular driver?"

In dirt racing the answer is sprint cars. What keeps the fans coming back is a good limited modified class which most all dirt tracks get a good car count of 15-25 weekly.If your other classes are strong too it is a bonus.When the sprints came to STS the place was packed and many stayed the whole night.Since then I noticed a few more people in the stand than before the sprints.

[NickHolt]

I have seen that "11 grandstand butts per car" figure bantered around for several years. I believe it was based from an old NASCAR marketing study done many years ago, but in reality, it's simply a number based of someone's guesstimate rather than verifiable data. Top-tier NASCAR events are a far cry from a Texas asphalt short track event. Apples and oranges to start with even if the NASCAR study was valid for their venue.

 

However, without recent, verifiable survey data obtained from the actual marketplace (Texas asphalt short tracks) we are simply speculating at best. You may say there are 11 fans per car, but I may say there are 50 fans per car or perhaps 2 fans per car. Taking it a step further, is the "11 per car" figure averaged over the different classes running at a given track? By that I mean, does each Eco Stock car draw as many fans as each NASCAR Fiesta Modified? Who knows unless you have accurate data to back that up. And we don't.

 

On a more general level, tracks can't break down and compare revenue streams the way you have in your scenario. It's the whole financial picture that matters, not just assuming that this class pays for this and that class pays for that. Revenue goes into a big pot and all expenses are paid from that big pot. When you go to work, you do lots of different things to earn your paycheck. It all goes into the bank and you pay the bills. You don't say, "Well this task I'm performing is to pay for the hamburger I will have for lunch or this hour of work is going to pay for the next gas fill up. It's all revenue that either gets spent or ends up as profit - a rare event in Texas asphalt racing these days.

 

And while you may disagree, conventional wisdom says it's the "top divisions" that actually draw fans to the grandstands. Yes, there are certain "lower division" teams, such as yours, that make it a point to recruit fans and sponsors, but they are the exception rather than the rule. And, yes, just like at a school band concert, there will be folks attending to applaud their child or relative, but big racing events with "high-value" cars draw big crowds (if promoted properly), while "low-value" cars tend to draw relatives and buddies.

 

Also, the "top" classes tend to bring multi-member teams with them while the "lower" classes tend to bring far fewer crew members. Not true in all cases, but certainly true overall. At least that was true when I was directly involved with two different promoters.

 

Finally, the chances of landing major sponsors for race divisions are greatly increased the higher up the racing pecking order you ascend. This is just plain common sense.

 

Bottom line: Your argument is true only if all other variables are equal for the classes being discussed and if the two classes being discussed were simply rated by back gate revenue versus purse payout. I think you can readily see that there are many other variable to consider that that simple comparison.

 

Nick

[abrungot]

What are you wanting the tracks to change? What tracks have you supported this year? I think ive seen you one time at SAS but not any of the other tracks? Your reason?

 

Just Wondering

JC

 

JC,

I have supported SAS with the #50 Entry in April yes...

What you haven't seen, and i know there are plenty of people that can say they have seen me there.. Is i have been at Killeen at the beginning of the year, and Nearly Every week lately at Cottonbowl speedway with TBS racing... #14, #01T Street, and #01 Limited...

SO please don't tell me i am not supporting local racing to and shut up..> THX

[abrungot]

Cottonbowl i think last weekend, had the worse Local Car Counts i have seen most of the year, difference was Pit passes went from $25 to 30, and the front Gate fee went up as well... All because of Sprint cars were there.

 

If you look at Costs.. I will use my specific Known costs...

 

$510 for 4 New tires, $100 for take-offs for spares, 20 gallons of Race Fuel @ $9 = $180, 5 pit passes for 2 days = $300, 2 tanks of Haul Fuel $160. That's $1250 Right there.. That excludes the Motor/Tranny Maintance, gear, repair to Axle bearing, Food and drinks, 3 people took the day off unpaid.. I think you get the point...

 

Yes in the upper classes, there are higher Tire costs, and Actual Car costs.. but if you look at those costs there.. Pretty much everyone's paying them...

[MikeReininger]

So much for keeping it constructive

 

After reading the above, I think the problem has been solved. For all you track owners, if you run mini stocks, grand stocks and chargers only, you could get rich!

[abrungot]

So much for keeping it constructive

 

After reading the above, I think the problem has been solved. For all you track owners, if you run mini stocks, grand stocks and chargers only, you could get rich!

 

if your definition is rich is $800 bucks before you pay to keep the lights on and the other expenses..

I like your way of life..

 

There isn't a problem solved.. unless you know the answers.. if so i bet there are alot of people that would love to set up time with ya..

Yes i can be a smart ass too!

[Danielsen Motorsports]

Race tracks cant be compared to anything else. They stand alone in the risk vs reward. The lower class cars usually bring more in pits and in the stands per car consistantly. Main reason is their family and friends have not been force feed the idea of racing year after year like the drivers running in upper classes that have done it for years. This doesnt apply to every car and team but the majority. The biggest issues with tracks is the "unexpected". They plan for mothers day, fathers day, graduation weekends, TMS race dates, IMCA Nationals, other big area race dates. Those you can plan around but its the race weekends that have suprises thrown at you like an area big concerts, threatening weather, rainouts, unexpected family events and unexpected track expenses that do more harm then anything else. I see too many tracks depending on a 3-4 hour saturday race night to pay all the bills which accure throughout the week getting it ready. Some tracks have hit on alt. revenue to compensate but in my opinion the homerun that all tracks need to offset the bad nights is the big 2 - 3 night race weekend. Big entries, Big purses equal big participation, big ticket sales and big payoff. Obviously big risk can be thrown in there if homework isnt done properly. Without the Big weekend race or 2 I think a track puts too much on its locals to keep track alive.

[MikeReininger]

if your definition is rich is $800 bucks before you pay to keep the lights on and the other expenses..

I like your way of life..

 

There isn't a problem solved.. unless you know the answers.. if so i bet there are alot of people that would love to set up time with ya..

Yes i can be a smart ass too!

I have a degree in smartass, and a minor in sarcasm. The point is, none of "us" have the answers. We don't own or operate the tracks. I'm sure the owners / promoters have made their decision based on what they think works best. It's up to us to now choose our track or tracks to support. I've chosen CTS and SAS. I'll stick with that and support them the best I can. I'm available all week for that sit down...as long as your buying.

[fast18]

It's easy for me to pick a track...I live 15 miles from the one I have raced at since it was built.

[top_shelf_12]

I feel for track owners/promoters. Especially when a "premier" class advertises 20 registered drivers and 6 show up. Should some of the responsibility be put on the drivers/teams too to make sure they put on a good show? That is why the "lower" classes are actually the heart and soul of short track racing. They're usually more family oriented, cheaper to run so don't need a huge purse, they race hard generally speaking. I will say HMP and SAS get the car counts but SAS is running limited schedule b/c of the cost issue and unfortunately had to cancel one of their events. You have a track and promoter doing what they can and struggle with car count except for that "lower" class. To me, sometimes I would rather say, I'll pay you "lower" class guys the "premier" purse until the "premier" class shows up and earns it. That's why I like the purse based on car count. It's becoming pretty clear that these "premier" guys are only running one or two tracks so I'd rather support the guys that support my track if I was an owner/promoter. If my bomber class routinely pulls 20 cars while a touring series brings 6-7, I'd put my resources into a high payout Bomber race and let those guys put on a show and showcase what they have to offer rather than watching 6-7 "premier" cars get out there and put everyone to sleep.

[arob]

My point is what happened to CCS. They got a "commitment" to 18-20 late model cars.The man worked his booty off promoting, securing sponsors and sponsor money , promoting and advertising and had 8 cars show. The limited mods on the other hand threw together their first event and got 14 cars . To me that means go to where the cars are and they are not in asphalt late models. I see Cody putting up 20+ pretty sures to 40 maybes for his next event.I think he has a better chance to meet his goal than asphalt late models.In other words the top asphalt class should be modifieds.I really think Cody is on to something to save asphalt racing in Texas.Hopefully he succeeds.

[top_shelf_12]

Plus the mods can draw from the dirt mods too since apparently it's easy to set up for asphalt.

[abrungot]

Since i don't know what i am talking about, and just posting negitive stuff to hurt texas racing.. I Told Nick to just take the post down.... He said he won't its a valid conversation.

[Jamie]

However, without recent, verifiable survey data obtained from the actual marketplace (Texas asphalt short tracks) we are simply speculating at best. You may say there are 11 fans per car, but I may say there are 50 fans per car or perhaps 2 fans per car. Taking it a step further, is the "11 per car" figure averaged over the different classes running at a given track? By that I mean, does each Eco Stock car draw as many fans as each NASCAR Fiesta Modified? Who knows unless you have accurate data to back that up. And we don't.

 

How hard would it be to collect this data? It is already being collected at the pit gate when you sign in, or at least can be. Why can't it be applied to the front gate? I'm not saying make people sign in but poll them quickly as they come in. Sweet and to the point. "How many people are with you and what car number are you here supporting?"

 

I'm sure you won't get 100% participation but you may get enough data to start crunching numbers.

[top_shelf_12]

Abrungot, I don't see your post as negative or hurting racing at all. I see where you're going with it, it's just that it only works if the "premier" classes act like it and show up and put on a show. From a fan's standpoint, I would much rather watch 20-25 bombers than 6-7 late models, especially if those 6-7 get spread out. You can't control who shows up and who doesn't and I know there's a cost for the racers to come but there's also a cost to get them here and it's real disappointing as a fan to be advertised for a show and the show didn't show up. When that happens, the track needs to depend on their locals to save the day and provide the entertainment the big boys dropped the ball on.