NickHolt Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I can tell you this, PAPA, after having flagged a few races in my time. You only have one set of eyes and you are not looking for specific things, you are looking at the whole picture, but you don't have eyes in the back of your head. So you do depend on the tower and your corner workers to be your eyes too. Also, in my opinion, to take overall responsibly for the racing from the Race Director would be a mistake. The Race Director should make the calls based on what he/she sees and input he/she gets from his/her staff, including the flagperson. But I do agree that the drivers must obey the flags immediately, if not sooner, and that the flagperson should have a strong personality to be able to command that respect. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Horse is right!! But as another stated, there are alot of empty threats made in the drivers meetings about what will not be tolerated. And yet it happens twice as bad and dubbed "rubbin is racin" and "the fans like action races". Well this is the result. Hope everyone is proud of the great job put on by the racers and staff. You guys wanna be politically correct go ahead. The facts remain, the race should NEVER of been allowed to get that far out of hand. This kind of racing is plaguing almost every class at THR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I can tell you this, PAPA, after having flagged a few races in my time. You only have one set of eyes and you are not looking for specific things, you are looking at the whole picture, but you don't have eyes in the back of your head. So you do depend on the tower and your corner workers to be your eyes too. Also, in my opinion, to take overall responsibly for the racing from the Race Director would be a mistake. The Race Director should make the calls based on what he/she sees and input he/she gets from his/her staff, including the flagperson. But I do agree that the drivers must obey the flags immediately, if not sooner, and that the flagperson should have a strong personality to be able to command that respect. Nick I have to agree and disagree. The flagman should depend on the tower(Race Director), spotters and other officials for information about what is going on on the track but the flagman should be in charge once the cars are about to race and during the race. If the Race Director wants to make the calls then that person should be in the flag stand. A good qualified flagman can run the race. He can use input from other officials but he should be in charge during the race. When SAS was open I was an Official (turn 3 spotter). One day I had the chance to work the flag tower. A car backed into turn 3 wall very hard. I hit the switch for the yellow lights and waved the yellow flag because cars running at full speed were coming off turns 1 and 2. I also told Rescue to roll to turn 3. I got my butt chewed big time because I didnt wait for the tower. To many people in the loop. Besides...a Race Director should have enough confidence in his flagman to run the race. If not then hire one that he does have confidence in. I wonder how they even ran a race back before they had two-way radios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arob Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I don't think all the power should be placed on the flagman.I don't think there is any way he can see it all especiallyif there is 15+ cars.And I gotta say if your track is saying " the fans like action racing" then I don't blame you for parking your cars or racing somewhere else.I went to C.C. Speedway for many years and saw some pretty intense driver feuds that the track did nothing to try to stop or at least tone it down.It got so bad it spilled over into the stands and police had to be called a few times.I've also seen feuds there where the track did step in and fined and/or suspended several drivers early on and as the season progressed things mellowed out.Bottom line the track has to grow a set and act appropriately when these things pop up. I doubt there are not more than 3 drivers that are causing most of the problems , it never is many , but if they go unchecked that is when you get what you got this past Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I use to race locally at CC Speedway. Not anymore. Mostly for running out of money after a divorce. Also for the bullcrap that was going on on the track. I believe in good hard racing and racing with respect. I do not like rough driving just because the guy wants you out of his way. I do not like drivers wanting to fight each other. I do believe in the track taking care of all the crap that goes on and make it enjoyable for the racers and the people in the stands. Now that I no longer drive I did not like what I saw at Thunderhill this past weekend. That's not racing. That was a bunch of people who knew they could get by with what they were doing. I did not see any black flags when there should have been a few. My wife has not been a fan of racing for very long and was asking me why they had so many cautions. I could only answer that I thought it was because some drivers felt they owed somebody something. Nick sounds like he called a race the right way. I wished more tracks would run it like that. If the driver don't like it they can go to another track where they allowed dirty driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 It hasn't been all that many years since we were racing our Super Stock at THR. At that time, that class was known for being able to put on one heck of a show with very few cautions. I remember going flag to flag with no cautions on many occasions with large fields of cars. I also was very disappointed in Saturday night's show and was pretty surprised by some of the things I saw, but sometimes all the cards just line up for one of those type of nights in any class. I haven't been at THR as much this year to see all of the SS races, but if this was a one-time deal, it's being blown out of proportion. If, on the other hand, it's beeng going on for a while, well then something needs to change. I hope it was just a fluke deal, and this class returns to being the top notch class they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorboy Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 There was no time for black flags, there were wrecks and it appears that the involved cars went to the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Judging by the fans reactions in the vids - they got their money's worth. Not that I like wrecked cars but THAT (fan excitement) is the end goal. every car, driver, team and official is part of a SHOW. That's right - entertainment. Withot that there would be no promotion and racers would have to take to theback roads to fill that need (being as the back roads are where the sport came from in the first place - it's only a sport if and when promoted as such!) It's hard to get 22 drivers who each get an hour of seat time per week to behave with the same skill sets and responses as cup drivers. If not impossible. Would you have your kids playing t-ball under MLB rules? there is no way to expect drivers in a local class to police themselves - the majority simply lack the hrs seat time and the patience and understanding of "traffic" that brings... Yes I saw a lot that could be different. ANY contact before the green waves should cause a no green AND the offender moved to back. Spin the leader accident or not - go to back (cant apply this to spots behind the leader as traffic causes most contacts). There are lots of things the officials can implement to police the drivers. but then what happens? Half the drivers stop coming and the show suffers, incomes from the sale of entertainment drops and tracks close. It's a very fine line - and personally I think more visits behind the tool shed go a long way but even that is not the answer. there is NO one size fits all solution. But I will add that I saw a parade lap go green AFTER a car in turn 3 contacted the one in front and the ensuing slide and bobbles caused a chain reaction. That is HORRIBLE flag work under any set of rules I have participated under!- simply because it not only ALLOWS the emotions to raise and carry into the next turn - it encourages it to. It's like letting your kids off timeout while they are still bouncing off the wall. defeats the purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast18 Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 If any filming was done for the reality show....well they got some footage & drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Judging by the fans reactions in the vids - they got their money's worth. Not that I like wrecked cars but THAT (fan excitement) is the end goal. every car, driver, team and official is part of a SHOW. That's right - entertainment. Withot that there would be no promotion and racers would have to take to theback roads to fill that need (being as the back roads are where the sport came from in the first place - it's only a sport if and when promoted as such!) It's hard to get 22 drivers who each get an hour of seat time per week to behave with the same skill sets and responses as cup drivers. If not impossible. Would you have your kids playing t-ball under MLB rules? there is no way to expect drivers in a local class to police themselves - the majority simply lack the hrs seat time and the patience and understanding of "traffic" that brings... Yes I saw a lot that could be different. ANY contact before the green waves should cause a no green AND the offender moved to back. Spin the leader accident or not - go to back (cant apply this to spots behind the leader as traffic causes most contacts). There are lots of things the officials can implement to police the drivers. but then what happens? Half the drivers stop coming and the show suffers, incomes from the sale of entertainment drops and tracks close. It's a very fine line - and personally I think more visits behind the tool shed go a long way but even that is not the answer. there is NO one size fits all solution. But I will add that I saw a parade lap go green AFTER a car in turn 3 contacted the one in front and the ensuing slide and bobbles caused a chain reaction. That is HORRIBLE flag work under any set of rules I have participated under!- simply because it not only ALLOWS the emotions to raise and carry into the next turn - it encourages it to. It's like letting your kids off timeout while they are still bouncing off the wall. defeats the purpose. some of your views here needs some addition ...hr.s and seat time is needed ..but common sense plays a larger part ...caring plays a large part ...respect plays a very large part .and some of these drivers who have someone footing the bill and fixing broken parts ..needs to get the bill .....and spend time at the shop fixing what stupid driving . lack of caring . lack of respect .will cost them ....thank the lord my son didnt have to spend much time with repairs on his car ..and cost to go with it ..a lesson he needed not .......yep a rookie ...after the first night of racing ..i told him i did not want to see the hood bent in anymore ..go around . figure it out with out taking someone out ..but when someone drives you wrong ..talk to them after .get it fixed right there and then ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 some of your views here needs some addition ...hr.s and seat time is needed ..but common sense plays a larger part ...caring plays a large part ...respect plays a very large part .and some of these drivers who have someone footing the bill and fixing broken parts ..needs to get the bill .....and spend time at the shop fixing what stupid driving . lack of caring . lack of respect .will cost them ....thank the lord my son didnt have to spend much time with repairs on his car ..and cost to go with it ..a lesson he needed not .......yep a rookie ...after the first night of racing ..i told him i did not want to see the hood bent in anymore ..go around . figure it out with out taking someone out ..but when someone drives you wrong ..talk to them after .get it fixed right there and then ... yep - just like any family . All must learn how to work together or be torn apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 The views and opinions that have come up and every idea has come and gone to make guys run cleaner... The only one's that can make the driving better is the drivers themselves. No rule change, black flag use, all involved all for one rule will fix that. Since this board has been open these same opinons get put up but most of the drivers don't listen hell half of them probably are not even online to read this. Its the blame someone else mentality the is plauging us as a whole... The drivers themselves have to take it upon their shoulders and decide what they are racing for. 90%+ would say its for fun. But really is this fun anymore... Really? The reality is that it isn't fun anymore... I think most people have lost the fun in the sport and are more interested in grudges and the he said she said BS. If you can't handle a little contact without having to wreck someone, try to start a fight, use your car as a weapon then guess what your in the wrong sport. But who's going to tell you not to race when they need every car they can get. So take a minute think about what your really racing for before you decide to blame someone else when they race you like you race them... JMHO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Its the blame someone else mentality the is plauging us as a whole... RIGHT THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 simple- QUIT TALKING ABOUT THE BLACK FLAG AND USE IT!!!! we can't police ourselves, and if we could it would look about the same as this race looked. That would cure it Shawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 If ya can't fix the drivers, fix the cars. Remove the bumpers and the fenders. THAT will fix the attitudes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUSTY61 Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 the Dwarf Car's had 19 cars and ran 3-4 wide sometimes without any cautions except one spin out in the first lap. Ran 20 laps under green, lasted a little over 6 minutes. Our goal each race is to race hard without touching each other. Also our field is completely inverted so the higher point average guys start in the back. Just sayin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 the Dwarf Car's had 19 cars and ran 3-4 wide sometimes without any cautions except one spin out in the first lap. Ran 20 laps under green, lasted a little over 6 minutes. Our goal each race is to race hard without touching each other. Also our field is completely inverted so the higher point average guys start in the back. Just sayin! tps drivers are the same way .........well ,most of em .. one of the reason we injoyed racing with t.p.s .... its easier to blame some one else .then to look at your own mistake .....i made a mistake in being in the wrong place this year at the wrong time ..early in a race .....i lost a tire .....yep the car in front of me spun the car in front of his ... i was not real happy about that ..but..i knew if i had stayed back and waited one or two more laps ..that tire would still be on the car ......i could have went over and jumped that other driver . but i did not ....he made his mistake ....and i made mine .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 If ya can't fix the drivers, fix the cars. Remove the bumpers and the fenders. THAT will fix the attitudes! you have a point .....one thing that helped my son this year after the first night when he used this part of the car .....was there is no cage in front of the radiator ..................makes you think .....maybe the rules in racing is to move the radiator out in front of the cage ...that would fix alot of problems . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Yes sir, H/T, they do it all the time. It's called IndyCar racing. They actually race each other. It eliminates most of that other nonsense that should NOT be a part of racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Yes sir, H/T, they do it all the time. It's called IndyCar racing. They actually race each other. It eliminates most of that other nonsense that should NOT be a part of racing. you put a push bar on those cars ..the clean driving would be history......true .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Simple... empower the flagman with the use of the black flag. Warn with Point & Told over radio... 2nd time Black Flag see pit steward lose how ever many laps as it takes to get the point... Change the rule.. involved in 2 cautions or 1 solo... combined with Simple... its called Rough driving... aka Recklessness looks like a good way to help the points fund! "Any Driver involved in an altercation on the track, such as throwing a helmet or steering wheel, making obscene gestures, recklessness or fighting may be subject to disqualification for the night and forfeit all purse money and can be fined of up to $500.00." I lost a championship because i raced a guy how he's raced us all year long... Fans saw me win, till the final results came out.. Wished that would happen to everyone! Heartbreaking way to lose...a race OR a Championship! Race a guy who dumps or chops anyone in his way the way he races you and get DQ'd for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Harris Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 4 spotter's, 3 score keeper's, 1 flagman, and 1 promotor would rather make 1 driver mad at them and keep 20 more happy and returning to the track, no all involved, thats what the spotter's are for, if your caught taking someone out, go to the rear, if it was blatent, black flag your gone for the night, thats what the flagmans for, want to argue at the call, wait till after the races and have proof, don't like the dicision, go to a track that let's you run over everyone else to think your a winner, thats what the promotor's for. one bad driver gone, 20 others happy to start real racing again. that's all i had at hot rod hill, it worked for 4 1/2 years before it was close for loud noise. control is with all your workers, the flagman makes the call's, the spotter's are his eye's and ear's, the promotor determines that his call's are fair and accurate. 20+ cars on the track at a time, huge car count, racer's with respect for each other, and fan's that love a good saturday night show, 1 good announcer would help !!! all in all, the promoter has to back up what they say ( there will be no rough driving ), or ( we will be using the black flag ) and if i'm a good promotor, why do i need a director ? i have always known that to be the flagman, on a short track, how many offical's does it take to make a bad call ? when you get a bad call and say anything about it, your just wiening or they will look into it and give you a call, i'm still waiting on call's from a long time ago, i guess they just forgot. i may not have been the best promotor in racing history but, i made every call equally and a firm believer in fair for all. a dq. ment just that, you lost your points and money for the night and if you didn't like that and caused more problems, you were barred from the track until you paid a fine and that was at the discretion of the promotor, then you had to start as a new entry with no points for the rest of the season. in tech if you were caught illegal, you were dq'ed and lost allpoints and money for the night and the tech man had the right the dq you for anything illegal he found on your car, not just what he might be teching for that night, then when you brought your car back, it had to be re-inspected before it was eligible for compition. i see too many night's where someone has something on their car that is obviously illegal and i am told that they are not teching for that tonight. it don't matter when you are teching for 1 thing, if you happen to see something else illegal, dq the car, it don't meet the rules for that class, or is it that you don't want to make them mad for getting caught cheating, tech should have the right to inspect any car at any givin time and to make a call by the rules as if it is a disqualification, he don't need a promotor to step in and say, no, that's o k for this week but give them a warning. your car is legal by the rules or it's not, no question about black and white, sorry, no favors by me. this subject has tore down more good promotor's and race track's than should, we could go on and on about who's to blame, that won't fix the problem, but in the off season we could have a drivers and owners meeting to set a new direction that any track chooses to make nessary changes to implament rules of rough driving to help our tracks keep and build car count for the racing future, the owners of the asphalt tracks in Texas has had their hands full trying to please everyone. that just won't happen, in order to keep good car count, you are going to have to control the racers as they all have proved that they or we can't do it by our selves, if you hold tight on the raines of a horse, you have control, but if you just drop the raines, the horse has control. all of our promotor's are great people, they just need us to do our part and let them have control to save our racing. i was born into racing and have been involved all my life and have never seen so many (non) drivers bullying themselves to the front, THAT MY FRIENDS, IS NOT RACING !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.