Houston Latemodels Sanctioned by ASA

[ProTree]

and Arts22, for taking your clients to Hooters,my series THANKS YOU

[supertx]

Arts 22

 

I would like to know what kind of return on the dollar you offered your sponsor.The standred rule of thumb is they want $3 back for everyone they give you to race on.What I have found over the last few years that a sponsor could care less about having there name on a race car there is a million places that they can put there name ,concerts,football games ,buses.just to name a few.You keep asking for the numbers Im going to shoot you one for a poor SLM team after you have your car motor etc and without any major problems your lookin at a grand a race. I think that lidlarry said it slm are not for everybody, not everybody can afford to run a slm

[arts22]

Supertx, thats close to what my figures were. With the pm on the car, I figured $1200 to $1500 give or take a few hundred... Our closest track is HMP and its 3 hours away, so its alil more expensive for us then the teams that live around Austin and SA... If you have your car and all the spares needed, it would be safe to say $25-30k would be a small budget... But with a lil bad luck, that $25-30k could easily double....... Im not sure about your standard rule of thumb on the $3s back for sponsors...... Find out what advertising the company has and what it cost, show them how you can be more productive then there current advertisement... Look for sponsors that have something to do with racing or that loves racing... Also companies that you may use(you already have a foot in the door) and dont get discouraged when they tell you NO THANK YOU!!!!!!

 

How would you get $3 back for every $1 spent on a Billboard along the Interstate?

[Guest lidllarry]

It can and does happen in billboard advertising. That is one of the most effective ways to advertise. Getting 3 to 1 from racing sponsorship at the local level is probably impossible. Basically they are buying into someones BS or their passion for racing. It is easier to sell a used car that smokes, because people need it, than it is motorsports advertising at a local level.

[CommonSenseRacing]

I hear people complaining about the rules being changed like the weather and the cost involved. In my opinion the four tracks need to get together and have a common set of rules for all the different local classes that race. These rules need to be phased in allowing the existing cars at least one year for minor changes and two years for major changes before being mandated. During that period weight penalties could be used to even out the field. This would create stability and allow racers with existing cars to compete. Also, people who are interested in building new cars can feel comfortable that their equipment won’t be outdated in a year.

 

Regarding the HMP purse, I believe HMP will have a severe hurdle to overcome regardless of the purse. From what I understand, without notice one night they decided that the modifieds were no longer going to receive a purse and just didn’t pay anyone. I’d appreciate it if someone who knows what happened would speak up. With that in minded if I had a car sitting in my garage, I’d be hesitant to spend any money fearing that they might do the same thing to me.

[jp17]

I believe you are referring to July of `99 when the then Houston Speedway quit paying purses for all classes and shifted it’s emphasis to smaller cars. If so that would not be a valid comparison, HMP is under different management and the Bakers are fine folks.

[CommonSenseRacing]

I wasn't writing about 99, I left that out because of the different ownership. I believe it happened in 03 or 04, that why I asked for clarity. From what I understand the baker's did it to them. I guess the question is, they had a good limited mofidied class what happened to them?

[uhcougs]

I don't know anything about a purse for that class, I do know that only 2-4 cars were showing up at the events, and thew few races they did show up for, there were only 2-3 cars left to start a race. The last race they showed up for the guy who overseeing the series, decided to trailer 'em up and head home after 3 cars showed up and 1 wrecked in practice.

[Bandit]

Arts 22

 

I would like to know what kind of return on the dollar you offered your sponsor.The standred rule of thumb is they want $3 back for everyone they give you to race on.What I have found over the last few years that a sponsor could care less about having there name on a race car there is a million places that they can put there name ,concerts,football games ,buses.just to name a few.You keep asking for the numbers Im going to shoot you one for a poor SLM team after you have your car motor etc and without any major problems your lookin at a grand a race. I think that lidlarry said it slm are not for everybody, not everybody can afford to run a slm

That is a good figure if you don't mind bringing up the rear and you build everything. Oh yea, and you never crash.

[STAGGER]

Bandits right. That figure may even be a little low for a Mod or TSRS if you want to run in the top 5.

[Bandit]

There is a great article in the PRI mag. in Sept.For the ones that don't no what PRI Is it stands for performace racing industry, it is the trade jouranl for people involved in the bussiness side this was a very unbias article about the good and the bad of crate engines.It is worth reading but quite frankly I know that T.D. don't really cares what anybody thinks and he is going to do what he thinks he has got to do to help his bussiness. What i see happening with crate engines is a $7500 engine that will end up costing aleast 10 to 12000 or more buy the time you end up.I know for a fact that some people that already run crate engines have them gone thru by there engine builders this was talked about in the article above and i know of some people in TX that has there motors tricked out.It will be like anything else in racing the people that have money will find a way to get to the frront.If you think that spending 7500 min. on a crate engine that will have know resell value is a good deal go for it.

This is a good point and a big concern, but the engine you are refering to must not be the the GM engine judging by the cost. Maybe it is a spec sealed engine used by many of the series (such as CRA). The GM crate engine is widely used now in dirt late model racing with very good results and very heavy tech by the series and GM. At one time I was totally against crates, but after taking a closer look at it, including reliablility and the sealing procedure, I am now in support of the concept. If you can pull 200 pounds off a SLM and run a $5000 vs a $19,000-$30,000 engine, where is the question? As far as resell on the engines, there is no resell on any engine. I can't even get a nibble on a concept motor that I am trying to sell for 5k. If USRA makes a provision for the crate motor next year, you will be supprised by the top teams that try it. Most are just tired of the engine expense, reliability, rebuild time and dealing with engine builders. Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the engine builders. Our machine shop, Austin Performance and Machine, has given us great service and excellent work, but we have to look at the cost of racing. Heck, even formula 1 makes you run the engine two races and one set of tires per race. If they are trying to bring cost down, why should't we?

[SASPEEDRACER24]

Ok Im a little lost here what is the difference between the McGunigill Sealed motor vs. a GM crate? Are they teched differently? Cost?

[Jason]

McGunegill is an engine builder that builds a spec motor and then seals it...

The McGunegill Chevy motor makes 590hp and is 13 and some change. The Ford motor they have is about 2 thousand more.

[uhcougs]

Who uses the McGunigill Sealed motor?

[SASPEEDRACER24]

I believe 2 cars that were in the derby were running them have to check on where they finished... I believe they both qualified on time as well... Is that motor legal to run in USRA?

[supertx]

Bandit

 

I don't know of any dirt late model series that runs a crate motor all the series that I have run with run a SPEC motor.The advantage to a spec motor is it keeps the cost down and keeps your engine builders in bussiness.SUPR has great rules for spec engines I know of people that have 2 yrs. on the engines without freshing them.Again what ever happens happens far as crate engines if the power seems like its the way to go there spending the money on there tracks.I do have one big question how do you tech a crate motor with sealed bolts and don't say people won't get into them it's already happening.The other question I have about crate engines what are people spending to freshen one of these engines and what parts are they replacing?

[CommonSenseRacing]

Bandit

 

I do have one big question how do you tech a crate motor with sealed bolts and don't say people won't get into them it's already happening.The other question I have about crate engines what are people spending to freshen one of these engines and what parts are they replacing?

I’ll take this one, if you don’t mind.

 

I do have one big question how do you tech a crate motor with sealed bolts and don't say people won't get into them it's already happening.

 

There are a number of ways to check them, first I’m not claiming to be an expert in the motor department, but for starters crate motors are reasonably similar to each other so there should be a range that the compression ration and cam duration and lift fall it to. Second HMP uses a rev limiter and third, in my opinion they should use a harder compound tire. At the end of the race check tires with a tire durometer.

 

The other question I have about crate engines what are people spending to freshen one of these engines and what parts are they replacing?

 

The 02 crate motor in my opinion is not worth rebuilding, sell it after 2 seasons and buy a new one. The 04 crate motor, the track can select a engine builder that can reseal the engines after they are rebuilt.

 

There will always be people who cheat, that is just part of racing. Let’s at least take the first step and work the kinks out as we go.

[jracer98]

I don't know of any dirt late model series that runs a crate motor

http://www.fastrakracing.com/

 

Jay

[Jason]

Bobby Gill, Clay Rogers, and Landon Cassill all ran the McCunegill motor. All 3 were very quick as well. I believe the World Cup 300 at i70 was also won by this motor.

[fishracer]

Bandit hit the nail on the head.

 

What I heard (hearsay) was that ASA LM, pumps the motors and has invested in a micro camera with ambilical probe that looks down the ports of the heads and intake for machine work as well has through the spark plug hole into the combustion chamber, also through the drain plug hole in the oil pan.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think they have air boxes so that everyone runs at an equal disadvantage and its easier for the techs to quickly look at intakes or any extra lines atop the intake (similar to nascar lmsc rules). This also allows competitors to be at ease knowing that the other guy does not have an intake advantage or the trick of the month intake. SAS did this a couple of years ago for this reason.

[Bandit]

Check out 4m.net talks alot about the pros and cons of crates. Also talks alot about dirt late models with crates.

[CommonSenseRacing]

I read this article in stock car mag, thought it was pretty interesting.

 

Tech Articles

 

Crate Engines

Cost Cutter Or Creativity Killer?

 

By Larry Cothren

Photography: Larry Cothren, Sandy Macys

 

Depending on your perspective, crate engines are either a boon to short-track racing or a blight upon a sport founded on the ingenuity of talented engine builders. Count Tom Curley among the proponents of crate engines, which essentially become spec engines after being bought directly from manufacturers or through supply houses and then modified to meet requirements specified by a particular series or track. In 1999, Curley, president of the American Canadian Tour (ACT), was searching for ways to reduce the costs for competitors running his Late Model circuit. He began exploring crate engines as an alternative to the special-built, or designer engines, then common in ACT.

 

Rising Engine Costs

 

When Curley began looking at less expensive alternatives, engines in the Monte Carlos and Tauruses used in ACT cost in the $15,000 range, nearly three times what they had cost seven or eight years before. “This is basically going to run you all out of business before we’re done,” Curley told ACT competitors. So Curley purchased a crate engine in late ’99, asked one of his racers to test it for a couple of events, and studied the results.

 

By the time the 2000 season began, Curley had developed a five-year plan to phase in crate engines, specifically the 355hp ZZ4 produced by General Motors. Competitors were given the option of wrapping any type of sheet metal they wanted around the engine—Ford, Dodge, or Chevrolet.

 

Eight teams bought ZZ4s for that season while Curley bought two himself. Curley told the racers that he would do whatever necessary to ensure that the crate engines were not at a disadvantage. Plus, the two engines he bought would be available to teams as loaners if the engines they purchased developed durability problems that forced competitors out of action. “There were only four racers who ended up having enough nerve to run them,” Curley recalls.

 

That changed once teams realized how durable the engines were and how well they performed. By the summer of 2000, ACT competitors bought another dozen ZZ4s and the series entered the 2001 season with 70 in circulation. Early this year that number approached 100. Curley estimates that 75 percent of his races are now won by crate engines. He admits, however, that roadblocks exist when asking racers to buy into a crate engine program.

 

 

Racer Support Critical

 

“No promoter in the country can make this program work unless he gets the support of his racers,” says Curley. “He’s got to have the racers buy the philosophy that we’re trying to save them money; that their racing, quite frankly, is going to improve with this. But to try to get that mentality into a racer’s head is next to impossible. Once everybody gets that mentality, then they start to understand that as long as it’s durable, the fact is that our crate motors are competitive with our $20,000 motors; basically everybody now has given up on ($20,000 engines) because of the cost, and everybody will buy a couple of crate engines so that they have a spare. Most of our big teams now have three crate motors in their shops. Then they still pay less than they would for one of their other ones.”

 

The key to making the program cost-effective is to seal the engines so teams can’t tune them for more horsepower or rebuild them more often than necessary in an attempt to gain an edge. The GM ZZ4 engines have been especially durable in Curley’s ACT series. “Our guys go two years, two full years, before they have to do anything if they take care of their oil changes,” says Curley. Then, for $2,200—or an average of $1,100 per season—teams can have the engines rebuilt.

 

An alternative is to sell the used engines for, say, $3,000, avoiding the $2,200 rebuild expenditure, then taking the money saved on rebuild, adding a $1,000 or so to it, and purchasing a new crate engine. Racers looking to get into the series benefit from buying the used engines, investing in a rebuild, and having $1,000 less invested than they would in a new engine. “They’ve got a comparable engine to the bigshots and they’re buying their used cars,” says Curley. “We’ve swelled from always having good car counts to now my biggest problem is we’ve got too many cars because I’m seeing a lot of guys who can’t qualify.”

 

Lost Soul?

 

Still, crate engines have their detractors, most notably among engine builders who provide custom-built engines to various racers around the country. Crate engines could potentially take money from their pockets, particularly if they’re not approved by particular sanctioning bodies to do rebuilds on the engines—rebuilds that could be few and far between.

 

Cars competing in American Speed Association (ASA) events have been running spec engines since the 2000 season. ASA employs a version of the LS1 engine produced by General Motors, modified and sealed by ASA and sold to member teams.

 

Joe Balash, technical director for ASA, likes the cost advantages offered with spec engines. Where ASA teams were once spending in excess of $100,000 annually on engine programs, they’re now getting the LS1s for $14,000 each, and the engines are lasting as long as 30 races—a full season and a half on the ASA circuit.

 

 

The argument that crate engines rob the sport of a significant part of its heart and soul is common, nonetheless. “We’re working with the ASA member tracks to bring this technology to the local level, and you hear some of that,” says Balash. “But at the end of the day, the key is to make sure that short track racing is viable in the future, and we need to do things to bring cost savings to all levels of racing. That’s one of the things that we look at.

 

“There are a number of Late Models and Super Late Model teams that are spending anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000 for an engine, and then running multiple engines. As the prices continue to escalate on those, there are fewer and fewer Super Late Models and Late Models in competition. By bringing some of those cost savings, we feel that it will be very good for the health of the sport.”

 

There are other ways to contain those costs, however, according to Darrel Poe, whose business, DP Performance, is a major supplier of Late Model Stock engines in the NASCAR Weekly Racing Series. “Yes, the costs of the components that go into building an engine have drastically changed—not only for the engine but for the entire race car,” says Poe. “The steps of constructing a race car really haven’t changed that much, but the components and the ingenuity and the design have changed drastically. That’s where your increases have gone, and if the sanctioning body—be it NASCAR, CASCAR or whatever series—would write a little more language in certain areas of the rule book for the construction of the race car or construction of the engine, the costs could be brought down and still have a quote ‘race’ engine.

 

“If the sanctioning body sits down and takes a look at the rules they have in black and white, they’re in total control of what they put down. We don’t have to run a billet connecting rod. We don’t have to run a high-dollar crankshaft. We don’t have to run a custom piston. But we can still build a racing engine. That’s the point.”

 

Level Playing Field

 

Aside from the cost component, proponents of crate engines point to other factors that help local racers. Curley, for example, points to the parity that the ZZ4 engines have brought to ACT, where just four years ago he says “we had dominance by probably five teams.” Of 30 events in the series last year, there were 22 total winners and seven first-time winners. “Especially in the lower-level classes I think you’ll find that crate engines offer some real value to the racers,” says GM Product Specialist Gary Penn. “If you’re a back marker, for example, and you now have the opportunity to run the same engine as the frontrunners, I mean, what a great opportunity.”

 

 

Jim Spaulding, recently retired parts manager for GM Racing, says crate engines can eliminate excuses for the under-powered and focus attention to other areas of the car. “I’ve never talked to a driver who wouldn’t be faster if he just had more power,” says Spaulding. “Particularly the younger guys starting out—they’re running against guys who spend more money on their engines and probably do have more power. It tends to be an excuse for younger drivers: ‘Well, I could do it, but he’s just out-powering me.’ The fact is, particularly in short-track racing, the horsepower isn’t all that important. It’s your ability to set the chassis up, to get the power to the ground, and the driver’s ability to drive it.

 

“When you go to a crate engine program, you can be pretty assured that everyone is out there with the same power level. It takes one of the excuses away, and I think it encourages the team to work on the things that are really important, and that is chassis setup.”

 

In addition to the ZZ4 and the LS1 used by ASA competitors, Penn says GM’s 350 HO is another crate engine popular among racers around the country. “We, in fact, just released a circle track racing version of both the ZZ4 and the 350 HO crate engines,” says Penn. “Those come essentially ready to race with an intake manifold, a pair of circle track racing valve covers with the proper breathers on the left side and no holes on the right cover, for example.”

 

GM has also developed a program to seal engines at the factory—a plus for sanctioning bodies or individual tracks looking to implement a crate engine program. GM’s updated version of the 350 HO—the 350 HP—comes sealed from the factory. The seal employs twist-off, hex-headed bolts located at various places on the engine—the intake manifold, heads, front cover and oil pan on the ZZ4 and 350 HP. The bolts, which have a special GM logo making them difficult to duplicate, are designed to break at a specified torque. Whenever one is drilled out, the replacement bolts will have been manufactured showing them as bolts made expressly for a particular track or sanctioning body, which theoretically will have an engine rebuild system in place. The ZZ4 using the seals are marketed by GM as a “Limited Late Model Circle Track Engine.” Curley’s ACT, meanwhile, is doing research and development on a Dodge engine that potentially could be marketed for circle track racing.

 

Custom engine builder Poe, while suggesting alternatives to reducing costs, is not against crate engines, pointing out it all boils down to enforcement. Says Poe, “If there’s a class of racing developed by some sanctioning body that says, ‘Yes, we’re going to run a crate engine in this particular class,’ and they educate the track officials on all of the components of that engine so they can police it and still keep a level playing field, it’s got a lot of merit to it.”

 

Curley says the concept is drawing interest from short tracks around the country.

 

 

“From all the interest I get from promoters around the U.S., I would guess I get anywhere from two to three calls a month,” says Curley. “The only problem is it’s scary to take that first step, because you’ve got all your racers in place, they’ve got all their inventory, and they’re sure as hell not anxious to go out and spend money on something they’re not sure of. If you’ve got two $20,000 motors in your shop, the last thing you want to do is have somebody beat you with a $6,000 motor. So it’s a very difficult play. What happens is once you convince them that it’s the only way they’re going to survive at the short track level, then I think they start to buy into it.”

[asalms]

Just to clear a few things up;

Houston Motorsports Park is running the ASA Late Model Series rules package only for their weekly Late Model Division. Identical to the rules package followed by the Madison (WI) International Speedway, I-70 (MO) Speedway, the Mid-Atlantic Asphalt Racing Alliance in Pennsylvania and New York and several other facilities throughout the country.

 

Houston is not running our purses designed for our traveling series and Houston will set any purse and point fund at there discretion. Houston is running our rules package only and the ASA Late Model Series will assist in training of Houston tech officials.

 

Furthermore; The ASA Late Model Series is in no way, shape, or form affiliated with ASA Racing, which is a totally seperate entity. That can be confusing sometimes.

 

There isn't an ASA Late Model Series event scheduled for Houston at this time. The ASA Late Model Series wishes the Houston Motorsports Park the best of luck in the 2006 season and look forward to working with the staff and management now and in the future.

 

There is however an ASALMS Challenge Division event scheduled for the San Antonio Speedway on Saturday April 1, 2006. (No Joke!) We hope to meet and greet all our our old and new fans in the great state of Texas.

 

A press release about the Challenge Division date at San Antonio will be released later in the week.

 

Thanks for your time.

[ups88john]

so whats the difference between north/south and the challenge series. i heard at one point that they ran different engines and tires. looking at the rules i see they run the same crate, but couldnt find anything about tires. i know they have televised races, will this race be televised? just a few questions.

 

big john

[speedracer]

Hey ups88john,

 

On the south series they are letting the 2- barrel motors run only for the 2006 season, and on the challenge series the tires are different like you said.