Houston Latemodels Sanctioned by ASA

[SSCHUCK]

Your not alone JP I bought four new stands to put our car on.

Now I just need to buy a car cover.

[NickHolt]

JP,

 

You run your Late Model with TSRS, right? Is TSRS changing to crates too? If not, how does the HMP decision to run crates (like last year) make your car suddenly obsolete?

 

Nick Holt

[jracer98]

I’m having a hard time affording all this affordability.

That's a well crafted phrase.

Jay

[Truck99]

JP,

 

You run your Late Model with TSRS, right? Is TSRS changing to crates too? If not, how does the HMP decision to run crates (like last year) make your car suddenly obsolete?

 

Nick Holt

I think he was referring more to the chassis that is becoming more common along with the crates at the tracks and in the series, including now TSRS - the full fabricated tubular machine.

 

From the limited reading I've done on here and in other forums, the trend is not only toward the crate motors but also toward a common type of car to go with them, and that car is unlike the type of car that was the TSRS norm a year ago and further back.

 

It's gettiing to the point where there seems to be very little discernable difference between the late model type cars in the various series. Is diversity a good thing in late model racing? If not, it looks like we are headed in the right direction. If diversity is what we need, we need to make a u-turn.

[CommonSenseRacing]

I’m still a bit conflicted about this whole crate engine deal. It’s an idea that seems to be gaining momentum and attracting a lot of attention which I suppose in and of itself is a good thing. Personally I’m not jazzed about totally eliminating the gap between those who have done their engine homework and those that haven’t though. Granted I don’t compete in a series that rewards or even allows $25,000 motors but the partnership we have with our engine builder is a vital part of our program nonetheless. Over the years we’ve gained enough knowledge to have a top notch package but it certainly hasn’t come from throwing lots of money at it. Our motors are competitive as a result of lots of research and trial and error. If we do have an advantage I feel it’s something we’ve earned rather than bought. I really enjoy the whole process and something will definitely be lost when buying a new motor becomes as mundane as a trip to Wal-Mart. A crate motor will cost me about $6000.00 by the time I pay the governor his share and that will be far and away the largest check I’ve ever written for anything engine related. Crate motors aren’t of very good quality yet will still cost about the same to freshen as the motors we have now. I’m wondering when and where I’ll save any money.

JP,

 

You admit it has attracted a lot of attention and that’s a good thing. First, when it comes to doing your home work, your engine builder doesn’t just work for you, all that homework you’ve done gets put in all the engines he builds. Second, trial and error costs money and time, time is money, just look at your labor bill. Third, you said it cost about $6,000 to freshen up your motor, your buying a brand new engine for that much. The saving should trickles down in all aspects of expenses.

 

I saw your car for sale, if you sold your engine and bought a crate engine couldn’t you race it?

[CommonSenseRacing]

I think he was referring more to the chassis that is becoming more common along with the crates at the tracks and in the series, including now TSRS - the full fabricated tubular machine.

Regarding, the fully tubular front end, the camaro frames are a thing of the past. They are getting harder to come by and if you are going to buy a reproduction one, it makes more sense to clip the car and replace it with a tubular front end and make the car more marketable.

[fishracer]

No one can fault anyone for being passionate about their investment of time, labor or cash invested in their racing vehicle. Racing is the neverending quest for speed, knowledge and triumph. With that said, if things are not tried to reduce cost, all of the above mentioned experiences will not have an opportunity to happen. Try, is the key word along with word unity on that ideal. JP has well as many racers have good reason to be sceptical about rules changes that come out of their back pocket. But rules changes with the spirit of reducing costs should be applauded considering that in the past they were geared mainly to those most vocal and conincidentally well funded. Protecting an advantage of either wealth or time researching with the resultant costs attached maybe just camoflauge of a teams real performance. Closing the gap on costs between teams will bring into the open the real top performing teams and maybe it will be the same ones and maybe not. But not taking a chance to find out maybe the worst thing that could happen to asphalt racing in this part of the country. Many a dollar had been spent for the next advantage in racing why not start investing now to try and lower the costs and increase competition for the future.

[lendo38]

I agree with fishracers latest comments. I am relatively new to racing, so I feel a little out of place commenting about how great things are with the crates because I started with one and do not have a car that appears to be obsolete now like some of you. The reason for my optimism is that it appears as thought we are heading towards a more universally accepted race car at all of our tracks in Texas. That has GOT to mean more cars at the race track. That SHOULD equate to more fans at the race track. We have all admitted that without some sort of changes, our racing was going to eventually see the toilet.

 

Maybe I have improperly read the rules, but it appeared to me as thought the tracks had put together rules that allowed a couple of different types of cars to run together in the same race. I thought that I understood that the TSRS style chassis were going to be allowed to race with the HMP crates???

[jp17]

Nick: Obsolete is your word. My point was that if you want racing flexibility a stock stub 8” tire car is now the wrong kind of car to have. I was referring primarily to the rule changes at SAS. As a result my car is far less marketable than it was at the end of last season.

 

CommonSenseRacing: I said the crate motor costs $6000.00 not that I pay that to freshen mine. I don’t. I will however sell it to you for that today. It’s brand new. You are wrong on the other count as well. The answer to your last question is no, a stock stub perimeter car cannot compete at 2640 lbs and 58% left side. Mine can’t anyway.

 

Lastly I’m not blaming anyone for my predicament. Heck I’m excited about the new HMP class and look forward to having that opportunity. There’s been lots of discussion about the cost effectiveness of crate motors and several good points made. I just thought that it was also worth mentioning that for one late model team in particular the move will be a very costly one with little or no long term savings.

[tqj3]

JP-

The problem is that the current situation wasn't created by the drivers, it was created by the various track owners and operators wanting to keep their track rules "different" from all the other tracks so their drivers couldn't load up and go run another track when they got ticked off, which you know they are going to do. (Get ticked off, that is.)

 

From a drivers' (and fans) standpoint, the best situation is for the rules to be exactly the same for a local late model at THR, SAS, HMPs and possibly CCMS; and for that class to be the top class at each track.

 

If the next step was a TSRS-type class as a touring class, but run under rules identical to the local track rules, drivers could try their luck and skill at several tracks and even run a few races in the traveling series when they thought they were ready. The new TSRS rule allowing tube front clips is a good step, but it means you'll have to change your front clip, and that's expensive even if you wait until the next time you try to knock down a wall.

 

Finally, there would be a top touring class like USRA Super Lates, with more liberal rules that, I would hope, would mirror the rules for similar cars in the Southeast so those guys could come see how good we are, and we could go over and spank them occasionally.

 

However, as the track owners had kept the rules specific to each track, it does mean someone will have to change their cars. And, unfortunately, the changes should NOT be made based on what will cost which drivers the least amount, but on what set of rules would ultimately be best for racing in Texas. If Terry D. can get everyone together and pull that off, he deserves all the props he's getting, and more.

[CommonSenseRacing]

CommonSenseRacing: I said the crate motor costs $6000.00 not that I pay that to freshen mine. I don’t. I will however sell it to you for that today. It’s brand new. You are wrong on the other count as well. The answer to your last question is no, a stock stub perimeter car cannot compete at 2640 lbs and 58% left side. Mine can’t anyway.

JP,

 

My apologies, your right, you didn’t say that it would cost you that much and no thanks not interested in a $6,000 paper weight. (no offense, I’m sure it’s a great motor)

 

As for the other count, your engine builder strictly works for you? If that is the case you are the exception not the rule.

 

About your car, that s#cks and really feel for you, lendo38 and fishracer wrote very well thought out paragraphs about the changes. In my opinion the changes are good for the sport, unfortunately you wound up the odd man out! I don't know you, but I doubt you deserve to be in that position.

[lendo38]

Something tells me we will see jp17 surface "up front" in one of the series next season!

[uhcougs]

So JP- what are you saying about the state of TSRS?

[jp17]

Nothing. TSRS is a great organization and we'll be racing a TSRS car next year.

[supertx]

commonsense

 

I bet your engine builder was as glad to get rid of you ,as you are of him.Wish I knew which car you run, it would be intresting to see how you run this year.oh that ought will be easy your the one that is going to be up front, right since you will be on the same page as the big money spenders?Happy Hoildays

[Guest noclutch]

Anyone know what the cost is to ship these crates to be worked on? I understand they do not come dressed? Need Carb, water pump, distributor? Time turnaround, can you get it back the same week so you dont miss a race? Oh, I almost forgot, the special ignition? How much does it cost?

[uhcougs]

JP - I knew you didnt think anything was wrong with TSRS (personally I dont think there is either, and should keep there rule package because its what seperates them from the local classes), but do you think that unless they change there rules to adapat and relfect those of all the local Late Models (400 HP crate allowance at SAS and HMP and I would assume THR as well) so that TSRS becomes an option for those who dont have the $ for a SLM but want to tour, that TSRS may be in for some trouble?

 

JP - I think your in luck for racing in your home town. Last time mary ann posted on here, she said that TSRS was trying to work around HMP's schedule, you may jsut be able to secure a dual championship!

[CommonSenseRacing]

I bet your engine builder was as glad to get rid of you ,as you are of him.Wish I knew which car you run, it would be intresting to see how you run this year.oh that ought will be easy your the one that is going to be up front, right since you will be on the same page as the big money spenders?Happy Hoildays

SUPERTX,

 

My relationship with the engine builder I used was just fine, I paid him and he did his job. Maybe I’ll be on the pole or a back marker, that’s not the point. As you put it we all will be on the same page and that is all I could ask for!

[CommonSenseRacing]

SUPERTX,

 

This is another website I came across on crate engines and these guys have there own machine shop. http://www.brownandsonsauto.com/crate_engi...ne_program.html

 

 

Why is a Crate Engine Better than My Current Engine?

Cost!!!! Engine costs are going up every year. Cost is the number one reason why less and less racers can afford to race each year. Car counts are down across the country due to the increased cost of racing. The cost to build a competitive short track engine increases every year. As new parts are developed and tested, it becomes harder and harder for racers on a budget to be competitive. A racer with a larger budget than his peers is at an advantage, he is able to keep up with the latest technology and purchase the latest components for his engine package. Cost is also a factor in attracting rookies to the sport. As the cost of racing is reduced, more and more rookies and other competitors will be able to start racing.

 

Why Obsolete my Current Engine?

Generally, engines are only competitive for 1-2 years, during that time they generally need rebuilds and extensive maintenance. After two years, most teams have to build a new engine because it is outdated, worn out or broken and requires extensive costs to rebuild. If a Crate Engine is an option at the track and allowed to compete, it has generally become the engine of choice after a period of 1-4 years so your current engine will not be obsolete. There will be some "concessions" such as weight breaks in an effort to make both engine packages competitive just as your current engine went through when the rule was introduced. After 1-5 years our experience has shown that the sealed Crate Engine's value makes it the engine of choice. In addition competitors will find that when all teams use the same engine package, racing will become more competitive. The real challenge then will come down to driver skills and chassis set up. It also minimizes track tech time and issues and complaints of cheating. Most tracks will choose to continue with the current engine rules and make crate engines optional. This allows current engine builders the chance to continue to build engines of there configuration.

 

Will I be Competitive?

That depends on several factors. The ASA program has proven that anyone can be competitive. Last year and this year "Rookie" drivers have won races in ASA. The ASA program is a great testimonial that anyone can be competitive when the playing field is level. That is why NASCAR is so popular. Can a crate engine be competitive on the short track? Yes, one track in NH built a 430HP crate engine, installed it in a two year old late model car and asked the 4 top drivers from the prior year to drive it. All four drivers broke the track record with less HP. They found that they were loading and unloading the chassis with their old engine package and were smoother with less HP.

 

What Crate Engine Should I Use?

Review your local tracks rule book for your class to see which engine package is legal. GM will have several engine packages available that should fit most class's without adding or subtracting much weight. If you have questions contact your local track for a copy of the rules or talk with the track officials.

 

What about Durability? Will a Crate Engine Last?

GM's Crate Engines have proved themselves on and off the track for durability. Hundreds of engines have competed full seasons at local short tracks around the country. They have been successful at 12 hrs of Sebring, IHRA drag racing and the One Lap of America. Some engines are still competitive after two seasons with normal maintenance. The ASA program has proven that "Assembly Line to Race Track" can work. ASA engines are on their second season with no reported engine failures other than team errors.

 

What if My Engine Fails?

Most crate engines carry a warranty. But the warranty is void when used in racing applications. They will however as a general rule of thumb replace the engine on "new defective failure". That is: if the engine fails within the first initial start up it will be replaced. This will be at the discretion of the factory upon inspection of the engine.

 

Will I be Able to Race at Other Tracks?

Currently more and more race tracks are adopting crate engine rules. There are at least 25 tracks in the USA using crate engines. Tracks from as far away as FL, to the East and West Coast and North Carolina have crate engine rules that are successful. As more tracks locally adopt crate engine rules, competitors will be able to race at several tracks a week. Other factors such as tire and chassis rules will affect your particular class at those tracks. If more and more tracks adopt similar rules, a day may come when you could load up your family and race car and take a vacation to visit a relative and race at another track for experience.

 

Why is The Engine Sealed and Who Will Police Them?

Sealing the engine is the only way to prevent tampering and keep the engines competitive. Sealing engines will have to be done locally. The local track can approve one or two engine builders for rebuilds and track servicing. The track or engine builder will be responsible to keep records of serial numbers on the seals and make emergency repairs at the track such as a bent push rod. Hefty penalties and suspensions will need to be instituted at the track to keep the playing field level. GM is developing a kit with the necessary bolts and hardware for sealing engines that can be instituted at the local level. GM is also looking into sealing the engines from the factory.

 

How Much Will it Reduce My Engine Costs?

That depends on several factors. It depends on which crate engine package is legalized. What class you compete in. How much you currently spend on your engine package and how many times you service the engine during the season will all affect your "Average Engine Costs". On average it will reduce engine costs by 1/3 to 1/2. A typical "Factory Stock" will expect to see engine costs drop by as much as 1/ 2 as the engine will be competitive for an average of two years. That cost will be further reduced because of the initial cost of the crate engine will be lower. On a Limited Late Model where engine maintenance is higher, the "Average Engine Cost" savings will be even more because the engine will can be competitively run all season with only normal maintenance.

 

Where Will I be Able to Purchase the Engine?

The engines will be sold through a local GM dealer. Some tracks may elect to purchase the engines from the dealer, seal them and sell direct to the competitors. Another option which several tracks have implemented, is allow the local "Authorized" engine builder sell the engines to competitors after installing oil pans and sealing the engine. Contact your local track and ask how they plan to provide engines.

 

What Will it Cost to Rebuild my Engine?

The cost for a rebuild will vary depending on the amount of racing hours on the engine. If the engine has limited hours on it and only need rings, bearings and a valve job, the cost will average $1,500-$3,000.00 including parts. GM recommends that the rods, camshaft, lifters and valve springs be replaced after two years or 300 hours of use. The current tracks that are using crate engines find most teams elect to purchase a new engine after the second year. Some competitors have three years on their crate engine . The rebuild costs vary due to local labor rates and what each engine actually requires, so it is hard to estimate the true cost in each application.

 

Will My Carburetor be Obsolete?

GM is recommending use of a 650 CFM 4BBLcarburetor on the crate engines. There are several reasons GM is recommending use of the 4BBL carburetor. First, the engine is more efficient with the use of a 4BBL carburetor and is affected less by temperature changes with the lower compression crate engines. Second, 2BBL carburetors cause a restriction on the engine. Small CFM increases in flow will have a larger effect on HP gains than an efficient 4BBL carburetor used on a low compression engine. Third, engine damage & failure is more prevalent on restricted engines. It is harder to tune a 2BBL engine, easier to lean out the engine due to dirt and debris and pour carburetor tuning. Currently well funded teams and engine builders spend more money and time to develop 2bbl restrictor engine packages. If Cost is a concern, then tracks can institute a "Claimer Rule" on the crate engine 4BBL carburetor to try and reduce the money higher funded teams will spend to gain an advantage.

 

What if I Want to Race a Ford or Dodge?

ASA has successfully proven that if all teams run the same engine package and are able to use other makes sheet metal (Ford & Dodge) that the racing is very competitive. GM's crate engines are very affordable compared to building a competitive Ford or Dodge racing engine. Currently Ford or Dodge does not offer a crate engine package for use in circle track racing. GM is advocating that Ford and Dodge create a comparable crate engine package so individuals who want to race a Ford or Dodge can compete on the same level.

 

What are the Benefits of a Crate Engine Rule?

You will notice several benefits right away. First, your initial engine costs should be reduced at the beginning of the year. Second, your "Average Engine Costs" should be reduced over the course of a season. If you elect to use the engine a second year you will see a tremendous drop in engine expenses. Third, all your competitors will have the same engine and competition will be close. (This is why NASCAR is so popular) Forth, teams with more budget will not be able to "Out Spend" you in the engine bay and make you un-competitive. Fifth, with lower costs and more competitive racing more cars will be racing and the purse should go up. Finally, do you really know how much HP your engine makes? Most local engine builders build a different combination each time and do not dyno them or has access to a dyno. So how does he really know how much HP each engine makes? GM will give each and everyone the same engine package. With a sealed crate engine everyone will have the same chance to win, no one can out spend you to buy the checkered flag at the end of the night.

 

What Happens When My Engine is Worn Out?

The teams can elect to sell the engine to another team that may have it rebuilt at the tracks "Authorized Rebuild Center." Or they may sell it to someone who is looking for an engine for their Hot Rod, Street car or truck. By changing oil pans and rebuilding the engine it will be similar to the crate engines we sell for off road street packages. The parts used in the crate engine packages are 4-bolt blocks, good cranks and rods which are becoming harder to find. These pieces make excellent parts for high performance use.

[ProTree]

could you repeat that

[supertx]

COMMON SENSE

 

I hear you sounds good.By the way did you happen to notice that they were the AC DELCO parts warehouse in Michigan for 50 yrs.with 14000 part numbers in stock,Think they might want to sell you a chevy part or two.

[Guest noclutch]

Yes sir,

GM just put a lot of small shops out of business, just like Walmart. What achievment is there by racing someone elses product? The backbone of local and regional racing was the small guy who put in countless hours building his own power plant, tuning his car and having a small machine shop as a sponsor. The bottom line here is the new blood racers are too lazy to build their own, they want to arrive and drive. Reading some of these press releases are quite hilarious. Do they think someone actually believes the reason they are running a radial tire in the ASA Late Model challenge series is because of the large number of Nascar development drivers in ASA? LOL

 

By making these wholesale changes, it is obvious that the focus for the tracks have been redirected from obtaining sponsorships to surviving off of the back gate. This is just another band aid, without sponsors, there is not enough cash flow to survive.

 

PS

Support you local Machine shop

I dont buy at Walmart, I go to the local hardware store.

[CommonSenseRacing]

Yes sir,

GM just put a lot of small shops out of business, just like Walmart. What achievment is there by racing someone elses product? The backbone of local and regional racing was the small guy who put in countless hours building his own power plant, tuning his car and having a small machine shop as a sponsor. The bottom line here is the new blood racers are too lazy to build their own, they want to arrive and drive. Reading some of these press releases are quite hilarious. Do they think someone actually believes the reason they are running a radial tire in the ASA Late Model challenge series is because of the large number of Nascar development drivers in ASA? LOL

 

By making these wholesale changes, it is obvious that the focus for the tracks have been redirected from obtaining sponsorships to surviving off of the back gate. This is just another band aid, without sponsors, there is not enough cash flow to survive.

 

PS

Support you local Machine shop

I dont buy at Walmart, I go to the local hardware store.

noclutch

 

First off, Wal-Mart didn’t put the local hardware store out of business, Home Depot and Lowe’s did that. I don’t like the way Wal-Mart treats their employees, so I personally don’t shop at Wal-Mart. However, Wal-Mart helps countless numbers of people by allowing them to buy product at the cheapest possible price. So in my opinion Wal-Mart has become a necessary evil, it helps more people than it hurts.

You speak of the backbone of local and regional racing and how the small guy who put in countless hours building his own power plant, tuning his car and having a small machine shop as a sponsor. That guy races grand stocks, hobby stocks and street stocks, he’s not the racer pulling into the racetrack with a special rig just to tow his race car.

 

Regarding the new blood I agree with you, it’s a different world now. Is it fair no, but life’s not fair. Complaining about it doesn’t do any good so why bother.

 

ASA Late Model challenge series and the radial tire, your guess is as good as mine on why they run them.

 

Regarding sponsorship, I wish I had a good answer for you, dollar for dollar there are better ways to advertise your business.

[ferdinandsanford]

Racing has changed, not even the local Chevy parts department knows much about it. I just walked in and went to the parts department counter and inquired about the chevy crate motor, the guy asked what I was going to put it in. My response was "probably a straight rail with monte carlo skin." He kinda looked puzzled so I told him "Its a race car, I dont have it yet but I am getting the numbers together to build one". His answer was this, " You probably would be better off building your own, these are like the old targetmasters built in Mexico."

[CommonSenseRacing]

" You probably would be better off building your own, these are like the old targetmasters built in Mexico."

First, if these engines are such junk, why are so many tracks around the country switching to them?

 

Second, why is it that when I put crate engine racing in a google search, I don’t see site after site bashing these engines?

 

Third, I’m sure the parts guy has sold hundreds of these engines and 85% of them must have blown up! Just curious, was that parts guy Lidllarry?