Texas Speed Racers Association

[RockStan]

and tg y dont you go and get a profit loss margin record i am sure they arent goin in the hole they might not be makin a killin but i am pretty damn sure they ARE making money

[SASPEEDRACER24]

Never said there wasnt any problems. There are always ways to improve.

[Sarge]

Profit sharing!!!!!

 

Are you nuts!!! Get a grip!!!! (delusions of grandour)

 

Look fellas. Being a race car driver at your local track will always be a loss to your pocket book. It is a HOBBY. If you aren't doing it cause you love it, your in for a world of disapointment.

 

The tracks are there to provide a place for you to participate in your hobby. PERIOD. Next your going to go after bowling alleys cause you don't give you your league fees back, nor enough to pay for your trick ball and shoes.

 

How much is that deer lease you got? The gun you use to hunt with? The blind, feeder and four wheeler. Do you get your money back at the end of a hunt? No. It is a hobby.

 

How about fishing at the lake. Bass boats ain't cheap last time I checked. You need a truck and trailer, plus gas in each, plus ramp fees, bait, tackle, cooler contents. Last time I went fishing there wasn't a Fish and Game guy waiting at the ramp with a pay envelope at the end of the day. It is a hobby.

 

Racing at your local tracks is a hobby. Treat it like any other hobby you could have and you will see that all HOBBIES are money loosers. If your making money at it, it is a job, not a HOBBY.

 

And there is already a national sanctioning body in place. If I had money to build a car it would be an IMCA car. That way if my IMCA track closes, I can go else where and race it and not change a thing. Or I can sell it to a bunch of racers all over the nation.

 

If the track owners don't make money there isn't any more track, and you don't have anywhere to play at your hobby. You want to play, ya gotta pay. Professionals get paid, but it is their job, not a hobby.

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

[abrungot]

Sarge... I guess track owners are what?

Hobbiest?

Business Owner?

Without people willing to participate in the hobby.. they have no business..

 

So shouldn't we try to work together? also its not all about Dirt...

[REBELRACER]

sarge does make some good points though.........most racers got into it to have fun........the bad thing is if you are losing money, you probably aren't having fun.........it would be nice to see all of the tracks get along and establish common rules, but for some reason that idea came to a screeching halt after some folks did a lot of work to make it happen..........

[Truck99]

Sarge... I guess track owners are what?

Hobbiest?

Business Owner?

Without people willing to participate in the hobby.. they have no business..

 

So shouldn't we try to work together? also its not all about Dirt...

Aaron, the track owners are business owners in every sense of the word. Whether or not they are successful business owners depends on a lot of things, but they are business owners nonetheless. You'll see people speculate on here and in other public forums that the track owners are getting rich at the driver's expense and others argue that they are taking a loss each and every week. In my opinion, neither is true.

 

I agree with you that the car owners and tracks should and MUST work together, but nothing in any of Stan's proposals expresses that unless I missed it. Stan's plan seems to promote drivers being able to make their own rules and run wherever they want and seems to say that the tracks can be muscled into abiding by this plan by an organization of drivers. Where's the cooperation in that proposal?

 

Let's say for a minute that Stan's group is an overnight success. Any group will have the "have's" and "have-nots" when it comes to power and decision making. In this case, those with the power could carve the rules to their liking regardless of what the majority or underfunded teams desire. Would this really happen? Who knows? The fact is, the system Stan is advocating is potentially no better in the light of attracting more drivers than what we have now.

 

Stan - please don't take any of this as a personal attack. I hope you're pushing this thing because you think it's the right thing to do. I just happen to disagree. It seems like it's been quite a while since you raced full time. Can you be absolutely certain that what you're advocating is needed given your recent absence from full time racing? Why not just finish your car and bring it out and have fun. That's what it's all about. The purses are still being paid like clockwork, and the rules in the local classes have changed very little over time.

[Whitey741]

.....most racers got into it to have fun........the bad thing is if you are losing money, you probably aren't having fun

 

 

Rebelracer,

I am not trying to start anything here but, I would dare to say there are not many (if any) local racers that make more money than they spend racing. Definitely not in purse money anyhow.

 

I would love to think that I am wrong, if so let me have it.

 

Tim

[abrungot]

Chase,

 

I am pretty sure you and i are on the same page with our thoughts..

 

I have loved racing all my life.. and will do just about anything in my power to keep it around...

 

we could talk about this till we all are blue in the face.. the issue is.. this energy will most likly be short lived...

 

I will just work with the kids.. buy doing that i am investing in the future... and the dream has a chance to stay alive.

[Sarge]

Aaron,

 

Are the bowling alley owners hobbiest or busnessmen? How about the ice rink owners? The owners of the deer leases?

 

These people put up their capital in hopes of turning a profit. If not enough people show up to bowl, the bowling alley closes. Same with any other business.

 

These people (bowling alleys, race tracks, land owners) need to make money or they aren't going to keep letting you play. You, the hobbiest, pay to use their facilities. Heck, you pay to go fishing, in the form of use fees and licenses.

 

You can choose to play or not, but you can't expect the owners of the properities to let you come for free.

 

Heck, when I was stationed at Shepard AFB I knew a guy that had a slot car track. Me and some buddies would go there on Wednesday nights and race our little slot cars. We would pay him just enough to keep the lights on, and we made sure to buy all of our parts and stuff from him. But even though we were friends, I still had to pay something just so he could make his rent payments. I ran in the 4th Annual Okie Open one year up in Enid, Ok one year. Cost me $50 to enter my car, had to pay gas to get there a hotel room and food. I was racing for a trophy. Had to pay to play.

 

Drivers pay alot to play, and they risk alot playing. But at this level, the level we are talking about you are playing a game. It is a hobby, recreation, fun. It isn't a job and you won't make money doing it. And if you think you have money tied up in a car, try buying and running a track. That is serious money. For the track owners they HAVE to make money, or your not going to have a place to play.

 

Sometimes I think ya'll lose sight of what your actually doing out there on the track. If your not having fun, it might be time to trade that car for a bass boat. Just don't think you will ever make your investment back drowning worms either.

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

[REBELRACER]

I am not trying to start anything here but, I would dare to say there are not many (if any) local racers that make more money than they spend racing. Definitely not in purse money anyhow.

 

thats what i said........if you are losing money it is no fun.....nobody with any sense gets into racing because they think they will become rich, not at the local level at least........they get into it to have fun.........but with constant rule changes it costs the little guys, the low budget teams who race for fun, more money and then it starts becoming no fun, they get burnt out and sell their stuff........jmo

[ACE44]

I think what Stan is trying to propose is instead of having 4 sets of rules for the 4 asphalt tracks have one general set so we can race all the tracks without changing certain parts to be legal . This would be like the IMCA Sarge but not dirt ! If that organization can work for the dirt racers why not a similiar organization for the asphalt cars. Now that we have a schedule that gives us a opportunity to go to other tracks when our home track is not running that would increase car counts if everyone new they did not have to change alot of things on their cars to be able to run. I think this is the intention that Stan is proposing , I think if this is the case then it would help the tracks out by brimging cars to race at other tracks ,increasing car counts and the track would make a little more money.

[REBELRACER]

but if it all worked out and all of the tracks adapted the common rules for every track, would the racers actually race other tracks when their home track is off, or would they use that week or so off to work on their cars and spend time with family and things of that sort........plus with less races, it means the lower budget teams would spend less money so they may be supporting their track more often..........im sure there will be those who do travel to the other tracks on their time off, but im sure there would be others who decide to use the time off for other things............the common rules idea is a great idea, and locking them in for a specified time would also make a huge difference...........jmo

[tps48]

Sarge, You make some good points and I have never raced for any other reason than because I love it. But the difference between our hobby and the bowling alley, golf course, fishin hole is that they dont charge my wife, friends, fans,etc. $10-20 to watch me bowl,fish,or golf. But because people are willing to pay to watch us race I dont feel bad about getting paid to do it. Because people will pay to watch us race gives the perception that the track owners are getting rich. As a small business owner I am well aware of the unseen expenses incurred in running a profitable enterprise. The point is, we need each other(tracks & racers) to both get what we want. JMO

[RockStan]

Stan - please don't take any of this as a personal attack. I hope you're pushing this thing because you think it's the right thing to do. I just happen to disagree. It seems like it's been quite a while since you raced full time. Can you be absolutely certain that what you're advocating is needed given your recent absence from full time racing? Why not just finish your car and bring it out and have fun. That's what it's all about. The purses are still being paid like clockwork, and the rules in the local classes have changed very little over time

 

 

chase trust me the rules have changed drastically over the years and no i dont race full time but i do build cars pretty much full time so i do no what rule changes take place that is part of my job each year is spend countless nights looking over rules and finding the flaws and the good portions of them and here lately there havent been many of the later. like take the street stock class i mean the new super stock class that yall run inwitch was an adverse affect from a supposed rule configuration between the 2 tracks sas and thr well that was just one big cluster $%#@

and the little bit of racing i have been doing is in imca to all of you who want to shun me for not believing in them i have considered that also................................ but with imca you have no chance of being a state or regional champion unless you want to build and asphalt and a dirt car that is the only reason i havent even mentioned going to imca it is a good idea if you want to run 3 nights a week............ and yes we are doing this for the local racers and yes i do no about rules and yes i do no how to drive and yes i can build cars and yes i can read rules very well and here lately the only thing coming from any of the tracks has pretty much been toilet paper you all can dis me and say what i am doing is pointless but like said in a previous post if it works on dirt y not asphalt because trust me it isnt easy making transition from dirt to ashpalt and back again but it is easy to adjust from track to track if you have the option to but if yall are happy with what you are doing then quit reading what i have to say other wise it is just making me think that you are not happy and kinda scared to come out and say what i am willing to shout FOR YOU

[zoom]

After the races at SAS on the 22nd, I spent about an hour talking with Terry Dickerson and Rick Day. There were some other folks popping in on the conversation (can't recall all of their names) But I brought up most of my concerns and explained them to Terry. He explained a lot of what he is experiencing. It opened my eyes to what he is going through and I hope he is seeing what I go through.

I havent been out to race this year yet because of the tire rule. Car is done, just didn't agree with the tire rule. Probably doesn't make any difference to the track if I run or not since I am not a front runner.

The point is -

They took the time at the end of a very busy night to listen and explain. They didn't have to. I have been digesting all that was said that night and trying to decide what to do about it.

One thing I do feel strongly about. NO track or management is going to respond positively to anyone or any "organization of drivers" that tries to use the internet as a bully pulpit or to an attitude of "you need us".

Here is what we need to do and this is what I will be doing every time I have a concern or problem with a track.

 

I am going to take the attitude of being professional about it.

 

I am going to call and make an appointment and then go and talk to them in a business like manor. If I plead my case and leave the emotion and attitude at the door, they will listen and things will change.

 

Go and represent yourself ONLY.

 

In all cases, I need to be above board and not put on a different face after the meeting.

 

If we all do this (or most of us) then they can get a better picture of how the drivers feel and how they are doing.

 

As has been stated many times here. The track owners/promoters are not doing this as a hobby, this is a business to them. As such, they are interested in P&L statements and growth. If the L is bigger than the P then they start doing things they think are needed to fix it. Each and every one of us would do the same thing.

 

I am not running their business, I am running my hobby. So all I am qualified to do is to tell them how their decisions are affecting my end of things. I can't tell them how to run their business. I don't have the information they have and I don't have the credibility in that arena to tell them. Sure, I can come up with a bunch of ideas, but so can they.

 

Let me end with this. I used to wonder why the track never called me and got my opinion or take on things like rules, procedures etc. But heck, they don't have to. Now, I will go and make an appointment with them, talk to them, and be heard that way. I believe they will listen. I don't know if any action will be done because of it, but who knows, maybe driver x,y and z told them the same thing and they can draw a concensus from that.

Hope this rambling made sense.

JMO and thanks for reading

Mark

[Truck99]

and yes we are doing this for the local racers and yes i do no about rules and yes i do no how to drive and yes i can build cars and yes i can read rules very well

 

...but if yall are happy with what you are doing then quit reading what i have to say other wise it is just making me think that you are not happy and kinda scared to come out and say what i am willing to shout FOR YOU

Ease up Stan...I never said a word about your ability to drive, read, or build. No need to get defensive. In fact, I've seen some of the cars you've built. They are good pieces.

 

And yes, we are happy with the current rules package, especially considering there is no longer a LLM class. Believe me, I am in no way scared to express my feelings as you suggest. The only difference is that if I were opposed to a certain rule or procedure, I would voice that with the track management directly.

 

Since you say the rules have changed so drastically in the SS class, let's examine those facts on a cost basis for a second. I'll admit that these are from memory. We've raced in the class since the track opened, so I remember most of them.

 

Motor rules changes:

 

1. Switched from stamped steel rockers to roller tipped rockers - since stamped steel rockers are very prone to break in a race application, they have to be replaced frequently. The good roller tipped rockers will go at least two seasons - cost savings!

 

2. Changed the cam lift rule - the cams still cost the same unless you factor in the fact that more available "shelf" cams fit the current rule. In that case, another cost savings.

 

3. Ignition - we can lock the mechanical advance now - cost is free.

 

That's it for the motor changes.

 

Chassis changes:

 

1. We can now run adjustable spring cups - cost is $30 each but the shorter springs are $10 cheaper. If your car was already set up well, this change was not needed.

 

2. Mini spool - cost is around $20 or weld the spiders for free.

 

3. Adjustable leaf shackles - most cars already had them but just couldn't use them as they were designed - cost free.

 

4. This is the biggest one - 3-link hookups for metric cars. Considering the very small number of metric cars that were previously running, I don't think you can even factor this one in. However, I feel the change was needed to make these cars competitive and attract this type of car in the future. The camaros and Novas are getting harder and harder to find.

 

That's it! So show me where these changes have forced people to stay home because of their cost. People are staying home for various reasons, but it's not because the rules have forced them too.

 

The hobby stock class has undergone even fewer changes than these.

 

Those are the facts in black and white. Not conjecture.

[fast18]

I've been sitting back and reading post after post. I could write a long winded post regarding the pros and cons of Stans post but that has been done. There are a good number of opinions and facts I agree with on this thread also....but all I really have to say is ...Support Your Local Track. Other than the folks running in series...where do you race the most ? Your local track. If you can't afford the class you're in drop down, run less races or quit. I have always raced for the fun and always will.

[TAMS boy]

I guess if some people were on our side of the shows they would see how much track owners lose. It may seem they are pulling in money but when you step back and look at all the expenses it might clear a lot up.

[RockStan]

O k i am on the phone right now with triston at smileys and you no what 970 88.50 a piece . you no the track make 26.5 dollars per tire or atleast jerry does not quite sure what they charge him for that "service" if you buy 4 tires that is 106 dollars over what you can buy them for from smileys............... if you were allowed to i am not saying what we are trying to do is perfect or gonna cure all problems but atleast make a voice and hell it dont even have to be me i dont care who it is as long as they have the racers interest in mind witch the tracks say that is what they have in mind, but i personally am not to sure and you are exactly right chase but if i am not mistaken all we need is no valve spring rule and adjustable "weight jacks" and shocks dont even matter any more cause i can buy racing shocks with the adapters to make them stock mount................ and look what we got a damn super stock................ you no the tracks are talkin about making us faster by proxy and made all these rule changes to accomodate that but nothing really on making the cars safer to me that is more important than goin faster..... i mean i could be wrong going fsater might be more importantto some of yall but hey that is your problem if you ask the tracks............ dont believe me check into it................ oh chase i didnt mean for that to come off towards you on that either sorry

[racingmom]

They do not ship the tires for free, find out the full cost of shippping them or the price of gas to go pick them up! oh and the cost of Jerry's time to go pick them up and the cost for him to be at the track when you need the tires. Not speaking for Jerry, but my guess is that he is in this business for the love of the sport not to get rich!

[Colt15]

I think its funny Stan how you dissapear for 5 years and come back and back to the same way you were 5 years ago stirring up stuff. Man the last 5 years were so peaceful too. If you like imca so much go run with them. I guess smileys doesnt charge shipping on each tire or jerry gets gas for free in his truck to go pick those tires up? or what about him being out there on practice days taking time away from his real job?

[holley4berl@yahoo.com]

Hey Rock, if the union can buys all of the tracks, you guys can have all of the profit they are making off of them.

[ACE44]

Why is everyone talking about the tracks making money. That is a good thing ,if they are or do, because if they don 't profit there will be no where for us to race. The point trying to be made includes no union or not even a certain group of drivers trying to bully there own rules and prices on the tracks . I think it would be nice to have the same rules at all the tracks so people like my self can go race other place's with out having to change cams, carb's, add headers ,tires ,ride height and weight. The cost of racing we dont mind ,I dont mind the cost of traveling to race ,but why not set the rules so all "WE" have to change on our cars is gears and set ups and go race!

[RockStan]

hmm colt 15 that is funny you have room to talk about being gone for the last 5 years cause as far as i no i have been around for the past 5 years not in another state building cars and i used to actually talk kinda decent about you being able to get out and do something with yourself hell i was kinda proud of ya but then YOU are the one comin back and stirrin up stuff see you are complaining about and and i am complaining about but the difference is you are comlpaining about stupid stuff you have no idea about ........................ like me so lil red when you complain about things like they have done nothing to improve saftey or not make a new super stock or the price of tires and yes i am aware that it costs gas and money for shipping but see yall keep trying to get the subject changed and all we are trying to do is make a safer cheaper and more efficient classes of racing so when you can complain about that repost till then [edited out by Nick Holt, 5/2/06]..........................................just my TWO CENTS

[SASPEEDRACER24]

Stan what is the answer? All I have heard is a bunch of vitrol towards the tracks and management but you have not said how you plan to change things other and vaguely acting like if they dont change to what I want then we (union) wont race. Last year THR and SAS came very close to coming up with similar rules ala TTOPA. The tracks didnt come to an agreement but its not like no one tried and no one cares which is how it seems like you feel. Car count doesnt nessisarrily mean more money for the drivers either. Just look at the IMCA Supernationals where you had a poop load of modifieds race for $500. What safety issues are you refering too that you want to see changed that you allude to? Just wondering...

 

Marc