Texas Speed Racers Association

[Colt15]

I think I have a pretty good education but I still cant understand what you wrote.

[blane]

The concept here is note worthy. This can easily get personal.

We all know that the local track owners are not making a killing, for what ever reason.

I did not think this was the point of this Thread.

How to give the Racers a voice, and help make up common rules that are in the Race teams best interest id kind of what I gathered.

This is a great idea, just stay on target "Rock", and Colt15 I wish all the old racers who have been ran off over the past 5 years would come back. We need all the Racer teams we can get at this point.

Several people tryed to pull the local racers together last year (START), and they had several meetings.

Track owners from several local tracks showed up, AND WERE VERY OPEN MINDED to the ideas suggested. The down fall was that local drivers did not join to support this Organization, and it died on the vine. (Support Texas Auto Racing Today) had 30 people show up to meetings, and only 4 of them were actual Drivers. The rest of them were from the tracks.

I think this would work if the Drivers would actually take part in the group.

The Local Racers have to somehow agree to participate in this group to offer feed back, and provide input.

I no longer own a race car, and the class my old car use to race in at our local track is no longer offered.

Chase 99 mentioned that Street stock rules have not changed much in the last few year, and he is correct, and he is very luck. I looked at the rules for Hobby stock when Thunderhill Raceway opened, and they read very close to the Grand stock rules now. The rules in Late Models and Hobby have both changed greatly over the past 4 years.

I do not see the reason for most of the changes, but they were made , and now these classes are too expensive for most Average Joe race teams to be able to afford to race.

I think that drivers and car owners should have more in put on the rules.

Some Kind of a Spokes person (representing the Racers) should talk to the Tracks on Rules that are based on the overall concensus of the race teams in each class would be a great thing.

I understand that if you do not have the backing of most of the race teams you will get a lopsided vote.

Not every race team is as involved as others, and that is where i see the main problem with forming a group such as this rests.

Good luck, and I hope this Group works out.

Bryan Lane

[SSCHUCK]

If the drivers want to have a voice they should START now.If not don't complain when you have no place to race.

ex driver #77

[SSCHUCK]

My post was the 77th.

 

How sweet

[Truck99]

Chase 99 mentioned that Street stock rules have not changed much in the last few year, and he is correct, and he is very luck. I looked at the rules for Hobby stock when Thunderhill Raceway opened, and they read very close to the Grand stock rules now. The rules in Late Models and Hobby have both changed greatly over the past 4 years.

Bryan, I've been wanting to look at those old rules. If you still have them, is there any way I could get a copy from you?

 

I know the LM class rules changed drastically, but I honestly can't remember anything that has changed with the hobby stocks. On the other hand, I'll admit that I haven't studied them nearly as close as the SS rules.

 

PM me if you can get those to me some way.

 

Thanks

[RockStan]

speed racer have you not read anything i have said this is not for what i think is supposed to happen or should happen this is what the racers that means you too think your rules should be, it would be kind of like the old rules meating that longhorn had every year FOR EVERY ONE TO ATTEND not what i think but what every one thinks and like i said before it is not a cure all for everything but it would be a good start for all yea yall might be right the tracks might be losing money or breaking even but no one will ever no about that for sure except for them and there bankers sorry i even mentioned it and i am sorry for lashing out at any one with the exception of one but i am hoping that all see what is trying to be done.................. it is not to benefit me it is to benefit all of us

[holley4berl@yahoo.com]

So in this democracy run racing orginization, I guess the racers will be paying the bills of the races tracks. The bills will be disguised as what....."taxes"?

[ACE44]

Why [edited out by Nick Holt, 5/4/06] can't ya'll understand all that is being propossed is a common set of rules so you can race anywhere in texas on "asphalt" and be competitive and be leagal ! I guess this is the same mentallity of idiots that would rather complain about something but keep doing it the same way.

[RockStan]

Gee holley i dont no maybe pit entrances pit stall your wifes gate entrance and all those wonderful sponsors ........................ this is not an attempt to overun the tracks or takes them over it is to put them on the same page and i would really like to hear from a track owner or manager on this since they are always staying out of things like this for some reason, i am not sure why, like marry ann or terry but that will probably never happen ................... anyways lets see what they have to say on this

[ACE44]

Why is it so hard to understand? All the track owners and tech officials could have a meeting and discuss the rules. They could make one set that could be used at all tracks so you dont have to change your car to go run somewhere else ,exept gears. You could then have a local track point system and a combined points system with a provision that you had to race at a certain # of tracks to be in the so called "state points race". Just my .02 , but I would like to hear some response as to what you think.

[Budman]

Yeah Ace44, that's what I've been talking about on here before. AND, maybe two or three BIG "STATE POINTS" races per year rotating around the tracks, in each class. That's the sort of thing that will put lots of cars on the track and lots of fans in the stands!

[NickHolt]

Gee holley i dont no maybe pit entrances pit stall your wifes gate entrance and all those wonderful sponsors ........................ this is not an attempt to overun the tracks or takes them over it is to put them on the same page and i would really like to hear from a track owner or manager on this since they are always staying out of things like this for some reason, i am not sure why, like marry ann or terry but that will probably never happen ................... anyways lets see what they have to say on this

I doubt very much that track owners/promoters are going to enter into a public discussion of the pros and cons of a union in a public forum.

 

However, you may be interested to know that over the past 2.5 years the tracks have indeed been discussing common rules, cooperative schedules, and other items of mutual benefit to the drivers, tracks, fans and sponsors. You might want to go back through some of the TXSZ posts that have to do with TTOPA (which stands for Texas Track Owners and Promoters Association).

 

Right now TTOPA is on a brief pit stop, but stands ready to be revived when the track owners are ready to do so.

 

This is from the draft TTOPA bylaws and outline the organization's goals:

 

ARTICLE II: Purposes

TTOPA’s overall purpose is to improve Texas short track stock car racing by promoting

close cooperation among member stock car racing tracks.

The specific purposes of Texas Track Owners and Promoters Association include:

1) To promote closer working relationships among member tracks.

2) To work towards formulating similar rules for similar classes and establishing reciprocal rules agreements among member tracks.

3) To work towards a set of common race procedures.

4) To coordinate track schedules and touring series schedules.

5) To seek purchasing agreements for certain consumables through TARP.

6) To work together to resolve issues that impact asphalt racing in general and member tracks in particular.

 

Nick Holt

[ACE44]

Thats right Budman I think the the topic got off track with everyone talking about the track owners profits and the cost of racing we all know this is a hobby and expect it to cost us to race and I hope we all hope the owners make a profit or else there will not be any tracks to race period.

[Sarge]

Common set of national rules - check

Race at a bunch of exsisting tracks - check

Sanctioned tracks all over Texas and surrounding states - check

Huge driver pool - check

National, Regional, State and track championships - check

Pavement or dirt, same car - check

Decent insurance - check

Regional director that you will actually see at your track - check

Someone at the "home" office you can actually call and talk to - check

 

I. M. C. A. has what your looking for. There is a paved track in Iowa that runs I. M. C. A., so there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

Do they have Late Models (pavement type)? No. But you all that have them keep em and run TSRS or USRA. Same with the trucks. Everyone else run Mods, SportMods, I-Stocks, Hobbies or their new Sport Compact. If you wipe out the LM or Truck, consider a Modified or I-Stock. Keep the LM classes for the guys that want to "move up" in the racing world. (and comman rules for them are a whole nuther kettlle of fish)

 

If all four tracks (five if you count Red River) ran IMCA your problem is solved. It is the sanctioning body with the most tracks and drivers registered in Texas. Could run a lot of different tracks with just a gear change. Know that when you pull on to a new track for the very first time, you are compeltely, 100% legal. Want to maximize your investment? You have a huge base of drivers all across the country you can sell your equipment to. (or buy from) Most of the street stock type of cars now running should be able to be converted to SportMods.

 

I. M. C. A. isn't perfect. But, it is about the best thing going. There isn't anything better out there that I know of. If I was to invest in a race car, which is something I want to do badly, it would be an I. M. C. A. legal car.

 

I would push for I. M. C. A. at the paved tracks. They will let you "blend" rules for a season to get started. They will actually work with you and care about the product that is put on the track. NASCAR could give a rats behind for local racing. All the NASCAR Weekly money is coming from Dodge.

 

My two cents (again). I don't have the money to race, and have yet to find someone stupid enough to let me drive their car full time. But I do care about local racing, it is my passion. I would rather be at my local bull ring than a Nextel race any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

 

I'm telling ya, 20+ I-Stocks at any of the paved tracks will put on a show that people will pay money to come see. Some of the best racing on the planet is in the I-Stock class. (and there are a bunch of them already in the State).

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

Broken record

[NickHolt]

Sarge,

 

Try calling all the paved track owners in Texas and suggest they all change to IMCA rules next season or 2008 or beyond. I don't think you will make much headway.

 

In no way am I putting IMCA down. It's a great organization and has really revived dirt track racing all over the country. It's just that, right or wrong, the chances of that ever happening in the paved short track world seem pretty remote at this point.

 

Nick Holt

[Sarge]

Nick,

 

I have talked to most of them. I have been asked why there are more cars racing dirt than pavement. My answer..... I. M. C. A.

 

One of the biggest differences between pavement and dirt in this state is the fact that you can race at a bunch of different tracks with the same dirt car. You can run for championships. You can run at "Big" state wide, regional and national events, in the state of Texas. Want to travel? Go race at a different I. M. C. A. track and still collect National, Regional, and State points.

 

The other difference is cost. Pavement tracks open many hours before the green flag drops. Most dirt tracks you can't pull into the pits any earlier than 2 hours before go time. Pratice? On dirt your lucky to get 3 hot laps before your heat. Break in the heat and they might give you another 3 laps during intermission. How much wear and tear does all the practice put on a car? I have seen guys put two race distances on their cars and engines before a heat race on pavement. Gotta be harder on the pocket book.

 

Your right, probably won't happen. <sigh> But most of the issues raised in this thread can be solved by I. M. C. A. In my humble opinion there is no need to try and reinvent the wheel.

 

And for the record, I am one of the most ardent supporters of the TTOPA concept. I feel something along the lines of what you all were trying to do is despartely needed on the pavement side of the house. My only contention is that I. M. C. A. already does most of the heavy lifting already. Late models are the only sticking point in the deal. But it should be easier to solve one classes problems from scratch, than all of them. With I. M. C. A. the tracks don't have to worry about making the rules, just enforcing them. As someone that has had a hand in writing rules, I hope you can appreciate that point.

 

I was talking to a dirt track owner this winter. We discussed the pavement tracks (as I have had experience there). He stated "I wouldn't build a car for only 12 races, regardles if I could only afford to race ten, I want to determine when those ten are going to be". Not going to be pulling many new drivers from the dirt with a short schedual. But with a legal car on both dirt and pavement, that might change.

 

I am not trying to be contentious. But I truly believe that right at this moment in racing, I. M. C. A. could be a huge boone to pavement racing in Texas. I think most of us agree SOMETHING needs to be done.

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

My view from behind the microphone

[speed demon 7]

Let me see here. HMP added the 400HP crate motor class with the rules of ASA??? HMM... sounds like a step in the right direction since ASA is the IMCA of asphalt(paved) tracks!!! Now, the HMP Pro Late Models can run all over the country. I agree with ya'll about same rules, but I would regulate them in the upper classes. There are so many different cars built all over the country that it is benificial to look at what is running in the local area to build a class with what is there.

 

I do like IMCA, with the exception of the outdated claim rules. I also like the Crate Motor classes, because you are racing agains other competitors and not their engine builders.

[ACE44]

Sarge it would not work fairly dirt cars can run 3-4 nights a week and accumalate points.We asphalt cars would have no chance to be in any points race exept our home track points . I am building a sport mod to run in Waco next year when there is not a race on asphalt and I.M.C.A. is the type of system we need but seperate the dirt and asphalt cars from the same points race.

[Sarge]

ACE44,

 

Where in Texas are guys running 3-4 nights a week?

 

Where in the country are guys running 3-4 nights a week.

 

I. M. C. A. has changed some of the rules in regards to that. In favor of limited runners.

 

Trevor Egbert, who as of 4-27-06 was 3rd in the nation in Modifieds only runs two tracks weekly, H.O.T. and Texas Thunder.

 

Rebelracewriter looked into the claims that the Northern (RE: Iowa) guys have an unfair advantage. He showed that for several years, the National Modified champ and the runner up were with in 5 races of each other. And both had more than the 70 that counted. You can win a National championship racing in Texas. Henry Witt Jr was the 2000 National Modified Champion. Keith White is the defending 2005 National Southern SportsMod Champion.

 

That aside, what if you had a Friday/Saturday deal? Friday at THR, Sat at SAS or CC or Houston. Yeah, I know, not going to happen. But... how hard is it to change from dirt to pavement, if all your changing is springs, shocks and possibly sway bar. So you could run H.O.T. on Firday night, and run THR or SAS on Saturday night.

 

And lets not forget "special" or "big" races. What if in the "off season" you run a $5000 to win I. M. C. A. race at THR? $5k for mods, $2K for I-Stocks. I would be willing to bet that the cars would be packed in there so tight the seams will bust. How many of those cars are already to race in the state. Heck, how many come down from the north to run big events in Texas. Look at Abilene's two big I. M. C. A. races. Look at the Modified Nationals in MacAllen. Cars from Texas, New Mexico, Nebraska, Iowa, Lousiana, Kansas, ect......

 

I. M. C. A. is not perfect. But it would be a damn sight better (IMHO) than what weekly pavement racers have now.

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

[Sarge]

speed demon 7,

 

What is antiquated about the claim rule? You do know that it is the claimee's choice now to sell or swap, right?

 

And the beauty of the claim V crate, is that anyone can build a claimer motor. Only a select few get to build crates.

 

Look, everyone knows that you can't build an engine for the claim price, but that is the point. Everyone knows what a "good" motor is going to cost. In a straw pole I took recently, it was about $3000. If some guy wants to show up with a $10000 motor, let him. If he can't drive he won't win and will be wasting his money. If he runs away and hides every week, make him lose his $10000 motor.

 

The claim takes all the motor BS out of the tracks/santioning body hands and put it right into the people who has the most to win/lose by it, the drivers. YOU control the cost of engines your racing against. It is your responsibility, not the tracks/sanctioning body.

 

I like what I have heard about the ASA. But your hoeing a tough row here in Texas as there is now only one track close to being compatible. And that is only the top class. I. M. C. A. has 18 (I think) tracks in the state of Texas. Which gives the most potential bang for the buck at this point?

 

Again, just my honest opinion.

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

[Sarge]

Found the new I. M. C. A. points rules.

 

************************************************************************

4. Driver must participate at minimum 50% of weekly sanctioned point events at a track to be eligible for IMCA track point fund. Track must complete at least four race programs to crown a champion.

5. TRACK standings are based on driver’s total cumulative points at that track.

6. STATE standings are based on driver’s total cumulative points for first 50 sanctioned events at tracks located in that state.

7. REGIONAL and NATIONAL standings for 2006: Modified, Stock Car, Hobby Stock and SportMod drivers will use their BEST 30 finishes at their FIRST 50 starts at sanctioned events to determine their regional and national standings. Late Models and Sprint Cars will use their BEST 20 finishes at their FIRST 50 starts.

8. NATIONAL standings are based on driver’s regional standings (if division has regions). Driver may compete in more than one region, but cannot combine regional standings for national standings - only highest regional standing will be used.

9. BONUS POINTS: Effective 2006, in all divisions, bonus points will be awarded for winning a track championship. Bonus points will be awarded based on each track’s average car count in that division. 40 bonus points will be awarded to any driver winning a track championship at a track with a 10 car average. One bonus point will be added for each car over the 10 car average, and one bonus point will be subtracted for each car under the 10 car average. For example, if a track averages 15 cars, the track champion will be awarded 45 bonus points; if a track averages 25 cars, the bonus is 55 points; if a track averages 8 cars, the bonus is 38 points, etc. Bonus points will be ADDED to the driver’s year end point total (they will not replace finishes). Driver is awarded a limit of two track championships for bonus points. If a driver gets more than two track championships, the highest two numbers are used. Should a track run more than one feature per division, the average number of cars per feature event will be used to figure bonus. A track must complete at least 10 race programs for bonus point structure to apply.

10. TIE-BREAKER: Should two or more drivers have the same point totals at season end in track, series, state, regional or national standings, number of sanctioned 40-point feature wins will decide tie-breaker, then second-place finishes, etc.

11. Point season for 2006 is from January 6 through September 24. (April 28 through August 27 in late models.)

***********************************************************************

 

So even if a guy were able to race 5 nights a week, after 10 weeks, he is done as far as points go. Your first 50 are all that counts.

 

So, again, the point was.....??????

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

[Waco Racer]

Sarge,

 

Another problem I see is with the current Street Stock/Sportsman/Super Stock cars merging with I-stock. The I-stock rules don't allow Camaros & Firebirds. Houston and SAS cars might are the only Hobby Stock/Road Runner class that would cross-over to IMCA. THR requires larger cars in the Hobby Stock class and Wichita Falls Bombers allow fewer modifications. Also, is the IMCA spec tire designed to use on asphalt? I know they run an asphalt race in Iowa, is there any tire data from that race? What type of sanctioning fees does IMCA have? Would that add to the cost of racing? (extra licenses, larger entry fees, etc.) I think you have a good idea, but I'm not sure the cross-over would easily click into place.

[Sarge]

Waco Racer,

 

Never said there wouldn't be any pain invovled. LOL

 

Your right cameros and firebirds can't race I-Stock. But it is my understanding, that you can use them for the chassis of a SportMod. I have been told that the SportMods are basically a street stock without fenders.

 

Also, like I mentioned earlier, I. M. C. A. usually allows a "blend" year, grace period so to speak, to get classes mixed.

 

The track I work at now, Texas Thunder Speedway, runs 7 classes of cars 3 I. M. C. A. and 4 "local" rules. The three sanctioned classes are: Modifieds, Southern SportMods, and I-Stocks. The non-sanctioned classes are Street Stocks, Texas Twisters, and the Jr Mini and Mini Stocks (both mini stock classes have identical rules). The promotor keeps telling the Street Stock guys to build an I-Stock the next time they build a new car, but some just keep showing up in the Streets. We had a couple move up to I-Stocks from the Texas Thunders (basically a THR grand stock) after that class was put out to pasture.

 

So... while intergrating I. M. C. A. into pavement racing, you can figure out what "local" classes to hang on to (LM and Sportsman???) and which you want to meld into I. M. C. A.

 

The asphalt track that runs I. M. C. A. is Hawkeye Downs Speedway. (http://www.hawkeyedownsspeedway.com/)

 

I don't know what the tires are like on asphalt. I took a quick read through the I-Stock rules and didn't see any execptions for asphalt cars.

 

Sanctioning fees are reasonable. I don't know exactly, but I will try and ask this week. Or perhaps Frank Torres can chime in and answer that, as I don't want to be lying to you.

 

Cost of racing. Licenses

 

2. Any person competing in an IMCA event must be a licensee in good standing with IMCA Non-licensed drivers may not participate. License fees for 2006 are as follows: IMCA Modified - $115; IMCA Late Model - $135; IMCA Sprint Car - $135; IMCA Stock Car - $95; IMCA SportMod™ - $90; IMCA Hobby Stock - $85. These fees will be discounted $5 if purchased directly through the IMCA office.

 

and

 

11. All current members receive a $5,000 accidental death, dismemberment and paralysis insurance policy, effective from date of license through December 31. Also included will be a $50,000 excess medical policy. This will pay up to $50,000 after a driver’s personal policy and the track’s policy have been exhausted. These policies will cover a current member only while participating in an IMCA sanctioned race.

 

Most weekly tracks that I have been a part of you the pit pass is the "entry fee". But for "big" races, i.e. $1000 to wins ect, entry fees can be $100. That is about typical if I am remembering right. Again, JM or Frank may want to correct me on that?

 

Again, is the I. M. C. A. a perfect solution? No. Can you show me a better one? Anyone? Bueller?

 

What are the options? Lets discuss them

 

Keep doing what we are doing now. Not very attractive, I think most can agree, or at least it could be better.

 

TTOPA. Not a bad idea, and one I heartily support. One big problem is that even if it happens, your still stuck with a very limited number of tracks to race at. And you still are going to suffer through the implementation phase of it, i.e. crossing rules.

 

ASA. Again, looks good, not a lot to disagree with, execpt that takes care of the fast cars, what about the entry level and race night fillers (hobby and street stocks). And your still only going to have a very limited amount of track available to be raced at.

 

NASCAR. Please are you kidding me!??? Hows that working out for SAS? 'nough said.

 

I. M. C. A. Lots of existing cars already racing in the state. Lots of tracks in the state and region already are running the cars. I counted 20 on I. M. C. A.'s web site in the region, 12 in the state, but I think they are missing some. Stable, mature sanctioning body that knows what it is doing and is very established. They only do "local" racing, not like other sanctioning bodies **coughnascarcough**

 

I know it isn't perfect, but I can't see anything else being any better.

 

Bill "Sarge" Masom

Eternal Optimus

[arts22]

Waco racer,

 

You dont play in your back yard? Go to Heart of Texas on Fridays....... Once your registered with IMCA and the track($30-$35) you only pay for pit passes.

[Waco Racer]

arts22, I've crewed for 3 different teams at HOT. I even owned a Sprint Car to race there at one time. I guess I prefer pavement for racing. HOT is a great track, but I guess the grass is always greener.

 

Sarge, the Sportmods are based on the 1980's GM metric chassis. Since each track has a set of rules and TTOPA are looking at getting the classes closer to each other, I'm not sure IMCA is the answer. However, if the tracks do get together maybe they could start their own sanctioning body to cover asphalt tracks around the country. Who's the optimist now?