Claiming Rule

[MikePeters95]

Yeah there aren't enough hours in the day and staff budgets to really run a NASCAR style tech program, although it'd be ambitious and nice. 

Claim rules allow the guys at the track who likely know who-has-what to self police supplementing tech.

If you don't want your stuff claimed because it's over budget, stop going over budget.  However, if you're trying to sell setup services and claim both John Heil trucks so you can copy their setups, and have someone else do the claim for you, that's BS and hats off to Owen and Karl for calling it like it is.

[24nomo]

claim trucks?   I am not sure you can claim the truck.  Maybe a shock, but you cant get a setup from claiming a shock.  They cannot tech every motor, carb, shock, transmission etc.   The claiming rule should help keep some high dollar parts away.  The track should be able to confiscate parts that are illegal.   That is a deterrent.  Weight, ride heights etc is a moving target and getting dq'd for that is part of the game.  You have to push the envelope. But cheater parts need consequences.  Not just a DQ.  But, I really dont care, I have no dog in the hunt either

Edited July 14, 2023 by 24nomo

[Bobby]

Am I correct in assuming the intent of the claim is to get parts which violate the spirit of the rules (i.e. high dollar ones) to filter down to lesser-funded racers?

Would it be correct to assume that NO racer, even lesser funded ones, would EVER run a part which blatantly violates the rules?  They are just paying to get illegal parts off the track for the benefit of the class?  Because the track would then be implicitly forced to let the illegal parts continue to run, since they were the backers of the process.

[24nomo]

No racer has ever blatantly cheated.  WINK WINK

[NickHolt]

There is no easy answer to the astronomical costs associated with asphalt short track racing.  Claim rules have failed in many cases. Track owners are justifiably concerned about losing its "top teams" if the rule is strictly and consistently enforced. 

One proven way to make a class more cost effective while evening out the competition is to go with a "one-tire-a-week" rule. At San Antonio Speedway the rule generated increased car counts and closer competition when tires were the limiting factor. Were the well-financed teams happy with the rule?  Absolutely not. But when the whole field was on equal tires, much of the expensive engine/drive-train stuff was basically useless since they couldn't get all that power to the ground due to the tire wear from previous weeks.

Another way is to issue store-bought shocks to all teams and have them removed from every car after every feature event. Dyno a few of the shocks from top running teams each time and randomly reissue the shocks to teams before race events. 

Nick

 

[HiTech]

3 hours ago, NickHolt said:

There is no easy answer to the astronomical costs associated with asphalt short track racing.  Claim rules have failed in many cases. Track owners are justifiably concerned about losing its "top teams" if the rule is strictly and consistently enforced. 

One proven way to make a class more cost effective while evening out the competition is to go with a "one-tire-a-week" rule. At San Antonio Speedway the rule generated increased car counts and closer competition when tires were the limiting factor. Were the well-financed teams happy with the rule?  Absolutely not. But when the whole field was on equal tires, much of the expensive engine/drive-train stuff was basically useless since they couldn't get all that power to the ground due to the tire wear from previous weeks.

Another way is to issue store-bought shocks to all teams and have them removed from every car after every feature event. Dyno a few of the shocks from top running teams each time and randomly reissue the shocks to teams before race events. 

Nick

 

U BEEN THERE NICK ..  24 nomo keeps saying he does not have a dog in this fight. lol .. yet he keeps getting into the fight..  someone  i suppose never owned  a car raced a car built a car financed a car .. or even sat in one .. . i agree with nick  on tires . the only thing designed to touch the track .. lost alot of races against tires , i could not  afford a new set every  weekend  more than one set as some did  .... but that gave me  the chance to buy pulls  and at some  times i could buy one new  tire  to go with the one or two  nighters  so least kept me in the running many a time  and a few wins ..sure makes  u work hard at handling and more so driving to get the best  of what u had with out buying  the best handling items .... the best drivers come up that wayin racing  take the least but  make  it work . ..  . rick rapp  comes to mind ..  i   learned alittle  from  ihim  .  i won alot of races with junk .. 

[RUSTY61]

In the Legend race car series, we get one set for all the major events.

for example, we run all 10  race nights on one set of tires in the summer shootout.

all tires are impounded end of night and stay there until next race.

it’s a cost saver and a equalizer for all competitors.

[24nomo]

On 7/15/2023 at 1:11 PM, HiTech said:

someone  i suppose never owned  a car raced a car built a car financed a car .. or even sat in one

Oh, are we going to flop it out an sees which one is bigger?     Are opinions rated based on the amount of money spent in racing?  That is the problem now, the guy with the largest check book runs the show

[Josh42]

If your worried about illegal parts then tech. I've been to to many race tracks and there is hardly any tech done or if they do tech its the same stuff every week or it gets out ahead of time that what is being teched so then the possible offenders can change what is possibly illegal. There is a away to possibly keep people legit. Every week there is a list of items that can be teched like a list of 20 items numbered 1-20 and every week that list changes and some things are taken off and others added but make multiple lists numbered 1-5. These lists are kept secret from the racers.   Before cars roll out for the first feature of the night the pole sitter pulls a chip.  That chip number is relayed to the tech man.  If you tech the top 5 when the top 5 is brought to tech from the scales the top 5 drivers pull a chip with a number on it. That number corresponds to a item number on the list and those 5 items are tech.  You are keeping it random and everyone on their toes and there is no chance for anyone to change anything up. I know it sounds like a lot of work but if you want to keep your racers honest this is the way to do it. This will also keep from having the tech man or anyone trying to tip their buddies off on what's going to be teched this week.

We had this issue last year where there was a car that was running up front on regular basis that never ran up front, but when the car was in staging running your eyes and nose would be burning and you could tell they were running M5 instead of alcohol. People complained about fuel not being checked then all of sudden fuel is checked at a race that was supposed to be a "random" check but this said car didnt run in the top 5 and his fuel wouldn't burn you nostrils like before.  After a couple races of lackluster performance fuel stopped being checked and his car went back to running up front. The tech man/director was good buddies with this driver. 

[JamesHigdon]

We're seeing expense issues in Quarter Midget Rookie classes...RED ROOKIE QUARTER MIDGETS!

The "crate" GX120 from Honda is $500...to be competitive you need a $11-1200 built motor from a builder that's had the cam advanced, the ignition timing advanced, had a heavy flywheel fitted, the special hones run through the bores, etc. You can buy AFCO shocks for $4-500 but good shocks are $1,800 and $250 per on rebuilds. State of the art chassis? $5k. Titanium rear axle? $1,800. Fresh tires every race? $260. 

We're running an older loaner car from the club that I'm rebuilding, solid car with a little older motor, shocks, etc. We've run hundreds of laps of practice dialing in the car and my son has gotten really confident but the next step is a current gen motor and better shocks.

USAC could solve a lot of this...close down the engine specs, rookie classes can only run scrub tires, limit to basic shocks...but it's racing so you do what you have to. 

[Josh42]

17 hours ago, JamesHigdon said:

We're seeing expense issues in Quarter Midget Rookie classes...RED ROOKIE QUARTER MIDGETS!

The "crate" GX120 from Honda is $500...to be competitive you need a $11-1200 built motor from a builder that's had the cam advanced, the ignition timing advanced, had a heavy flywheel fitted, the special hones run through the bores, etc. You can buy AFCO shocks for $4-500 but good shocks are $1,800 and $250 per on rebuilds. State of the art chassis? $5k. Titanium rear axle? $1,800. Fresh tires every race? $260. 

We're running an older loaner car from the club that I'm rebuilding, solid car with a little older motor, shocks, etc. We've run hundreds of laps of practice dialing in the car and my son has gotten really confident but the next step is a current gen motor and better shocks.

USAC could solve a lot of this...close down the engine specs, rookie classes can only run scrub tires, limit to basic shocks...but it's racing so you do what you have to. 

Don't get me started on 1/4 midgets. I ran them for years and we did it on a budget and we were good and competitive without cheating. I am trying to find a good starter car for my son that i can go through first before he starts making laps and everyone wants 3500 to 5000 for a car and a car that is multiple years old. I don't really care how many championships the car has won or who drove it that doesn't mean my kid is going to be an automatic contender but there are parents that believe that BS that if they buy that car they are automatically going to be a winner.  I'm to the point where I am going to buy a junior sprint since he can start racing at 6 in that and i can get a bigger car with the same motor and start racing dirt right away.

[HiTech]

19 hours ago, Josh42 said:

Don't get me started on 1/4 midgets. I ran them for years and we did it on a budget and we were good and competitive without cheating. I am trying to find a good starter car for my son that i can go through first before he starts making laps and everyone wants 3500 to 5000 for a car and a car that is multiple years old. I don't really care how many championships the car has won or who drove it that doesn't mean my kid is going to be an automatic contender but there are parents that believe that BS that if they buy that car they are automatically going to be a winner.  I'm to the point where I am going to buy a junior sprint since he can start racing at 6 in that and i can get a bigger car with the same motor and start racing dirt right away.

MAN how that is a true statement  .i bought a 2 time  champion car in 89  i got it cheap and someone else wrote the check . . no changes made  by the owner i bought it  from ..  fast car with a slow driver  . the car never fit me i raced it most of the season   and just never got a handle or ill say   use  to the handling style of the car and there was nothing wrong with the car . just the monkey  behind the wheel  . i ASKED ANother driver  TO take it out  just to see if it was me . he ran 2 seconds faster  that i on the first lap  .he had a simular set up on his car .. . i went back to my old home grown  throw together racecar  and won alot of races or ran top three alot of races ..  so buying a top winning car does not make u a winner .. 

[MikePeters95]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:26 AM, 24nomo said:

claim trucks?   I am not sure you can claim the truck.  Maybe a shock, but you cant get a setup from claiming a shock.  They cannot tech every motor, carb, shock, transmission etc.   The claiming rule should help keep some high dollar parts away.  The track should be able to confiscate parts that are illegal.   That is a deterrent.  Weight, ride heights etc is a moving target and getting dq'd for that is part of the game.  You have to push the envelope. But cheater parts need consequences.  Not just a DQ.  But, I really dont care, I have no dog in the hunt either

I can't believe I'm having to clarify, but if you're trying to claim (shocks) from both John Hiel trucks so you can copy them, that's not what the rule is for. 

I thought what I was typing was pretty obvious.  Obviously you can't claim a whole truck.

_____________________________________________________________________

The idea on the claim rule is, that while it would be W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L to tech, scrutinize, impound, tear down, verify legality of every nut, bolt, shock, engine, differential, etc, that is not a real-world possibility.  However, if tech can do the best they can , AND there is an claim rule for the items that are just not reasonably able to be torn down in an amateur Saturday night show, shocks, engines, etc, in theory the items that tech simply does not have enough hours in the day to really dive into, the class itself can discourage items outside the scope of the rules or costs by claiming them.  However, one guy who does truck setup, claiming a competitor shops shocks is pretty outside the scope of the intention of the process.  

You can learn a lot from claiming someone's shocks and looking back on what they did versus what you're doing in a 'spec' class where shocks are one of the biggest adjustments you can have....even though they're 'non adjustable' (just carry 20 of them instead!)

Side note: I know they cost more, but I am 100% for adjustable shocks.  Carrying 20 different shocks to the track is just stupid and doesn't save any money.  Let me turn a knob and be done with it.  Put a cost cap on it, have the claim rule at the cost cap.  If folks want to run $2000 shocks with a $400 cost cap, then in a few months all the guys like me will have a nice set of $2000 used shocks, that we got for $400, and the teams that want to spend $10k a year on shocks they keep getting claimed can absolutely do that, and the economy gets stimulated in the process. 

I also think a tire impound rule would be nice.  I've heard people complain "How am I supposed to race somewhere else if you stamp my tires, and what about the guy that only races 2x a year".  You're already buying two sets of tires every time you unload your truck, so the first argument really is invalid, but the second deal, I am not sure how to police the part time folks that will get new tires when they show up.  Do I get brand new tires the first time I decide to go back out if I ever decide it's safe to take my truck out and it wont' get totaled for no reason? How's that fair to the other dudes that have been out there.  Nice rule in theory but how does it really work?

Edited July 19, 2023 by MikePeters95

[NickHolt]

On 7/19/2023 at 12:08 PM, MikePeters95 said:

I also think a tire impound rule would be nice.  I've heard people complain "How am I supposed to race somewhere else if you stamp my tires, and what about the guy that only races 2x a year".  You're already buying two sets of tires every time you unload your truck, so the first argument really is invalid, but the second deal, I am not sure how to police the part time folks that will get new tires when they show up.  Do I get brand new tires the first time I decide to go back out if I ever decide it's safe to take my truck out and it wont' get totaled for no reason? How's that fair to the other dudes that have been out there.  Nice rule in theory but how does it really work?

The rule works best when it is used at a local track with few "newcomers" or a series where the "regulars" make up most of the field.  

I have a complete set of the "one-tire-a-week" rules that I used at San Antonio Speedway. It's multi-pages since racers (often their own worst enemy) will try to 'beat the rules" if they don't cover a lot of scenarios.  So, the rules were pretty specific and detailed.  I don't have them here with me in Maine, but when get back to SA in the fall, I've happy to share them with you.