kwhardage Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Rusty, I'll agree with your point about built motor vs crate, to an extent. Teched "properly". It would be fine. Nesmith helps with tech (key to a successful crate class). Can't do it if it's not sanctioned. The problem with a lot of racers these days, is there are a bunch of them that don't build motors. They can go spend the money on a crate, and keep the maintenance lower, to have the same HP as everyone else, for less than what they'd pay a builder. Have you priced a front running sport mod motor lately? All Jesse is trying to say is, crate cars are growing in the Houston area, BIG TIME. Those guys won't come run with is now, looking at trying to run against open motors. The open motor deal scares guys away, and if the track stays tacky, they are going to have an advantage without ridiculous weight penalties. Dry slick track, D-55 tires, it's pretty even. We've been running the 362 all steel package and have been competitive, I was running 2nd Saturday until the 5th arm broke with the smallest motor out there (344 CID). Jesse came up and ran the leader down before getting raced way too hard by a lapped car, with the second smallest motor. All other motors out there this past weekend were over 400 CID. Fact Still remains, big motors scare guys away. I think we've gotten off topic, this post was asking what the purse is going to be for Halloween Havoc. To Jesse's point there, he and I are making attempts to draw some sponsorship help to build the purse for that race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Kody, Try 6.50 lbs/cubic inch with a minimum weight of 2300 lbs and 50 lbs in front of the firewall for alum heads and 150 lbs in front of the firewall for all alum motors and see how many guys continue racing their alum 410 motors. Here's the breakdown: 602 Crate motor 2300 lbs 355 steel built motor 2307 lbs 604 Crate motor 2325 lbs with 50 lbs of the weight in front of the firewall 355 with alum heads 2357 lbs with 50 lbs of the weight in front of the firewall 400 with alum heads 2650 lbs with 50 lbs of the weight in front of the firewall 410 all alum 2815 lbs with 150 lbs of the weight in front of the firewall If that doesn't even things out just chip certain engine combinations. For those who still think crates are the way to go, buy a 602. That's the only crate that really saves money. We bought our first 604 crate for $5200 (more now). The lite weight harmonic balancer was $235, beehive valve springs and retainers $268, 650 cfm crate carb $750. It made 435 hp and 400 ft lbs torque and was chipped at 6300 rpm. For that same $6500 I can build one heck of an alum headed motor that will make more than 500 hp and doesn't have to be chipped at 6300 rpm to last a season or more. The #42 LLM has a motor similar to that described above except steel heads. We freshen it every 2 yrs and turn it 8000 rpm race after race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Now, what is the purse???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
top_shelf_12 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Million dollar question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claybuster Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 In 1993 our first year racing at SOS the purse was $400 to win bumped from $300 late 1992, $20 car and driver, No registration fee, no minimum car count only 3 classes total. Bomber, Pure Stock and Super Sportsman. We still have 2 of the original sportsman motors from back then in some form, or fashion and they dang sure wernt cheap, but they are still useable. If you wanted to run with Todd Lee, Shane Hoefling, Billy White, Eddy Hardage, Jerry Edwards, George Pullin,, Eddy Ross, Whitekar Sr., Mikulencak, Hardcastle, list goes on and on, you better have your stuff together. Last time I checked Aluminum, does not make HP. Its cubic inches and cylinder head / AIR FLOW! Then comes the nut behind the wheel. We have done the crate LM deal 3yrs, give/take at HRP, best damn racing, most economical, it just needed the technical side enforced to make everyone feel they wernt being cheated. that's where the wheels fell off. Hind sight is 20/20 most of that can be avoided today with proper structure. I probably should have not posted but, the original topic was the purse. I have my opinion of the whole racing demographics, but it wont change. Kody I'm sure your Dad remembers the good'ol days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Those were the days! Seemed like things were a more simple back then. Fun to watch those guys race. Carlton , you are so right about the nut behind the wheel;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
top_shelf_12 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Sorry for varying off the main topic, but I think now, car counts will almost always affect the purse, then became a discussion about how to grow the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan68 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I just bought a brand new 418 for 4000 plus 250 for shipping full motor and don't have to pay to send it off to a builder yall start changing rules and not pay you will run cars off look at street stock it's not all bout motor like Jessie said the car has Handel the different packages we have now work dont fix something that ain't broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwhardage Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Kody I'm sure your Dad remembers the good'ol days. I remember the good ol days. You had to be on top of your game to run top 10 most nights. They had 15 or 16 cars, and you had to beat at least 10-12 of them. I remember him changing jet sizes 1 number either way to squeeze just a little more out of it. We will never have racing that close with the package we have now. Those were all steel 2 bbl motors that you had to get every drop out of. You had to freshen every year (if it made it that long). Carb and accessories costed just as much as the crate stuff does now, and you were spending more than what a crate costs to be competitive. You got whatever you could, and turned 8400 or better to be fast. I'm glad this discussion got off topic. It is a very good discussion that has been needing to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 In a way I wish we still ran those all steel 2 bbl motors. I really think that a spec motor is about as far as we should go. Jmo. Mine is nothing fancy;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan68 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 In a way I wish we still ran those all steel 2 bbl motors. I really think that a spec motor is about as far as we should go. Jmo. Mine is nothing fancy;) count me out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latemodel82 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Change it to crate motors or something stupid mine goes on jack stands. If u go to crate that's not making the class any cheaper when everyone has to buy a motor and everything that goes with it. This is the only time I'm posting do u know how I feel . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Easy killer.. Just saying.. Not gonna happen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
top_shelf_12 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 All due respect, but a class that only gets 6-8 cars weekly won't survive at any track, especially in a more expensive class to run like LM. Track can't afford to pay a high purse weekly when the support isn't there from the rest of the drivers. That being said, I realize everyone posting here are the ones showing up every week supporting your class. Hopefully Havoc won't be the last LM race because STS doesn't seem too interested in LM, Edna closed, I'm not sure about Cotton Bowl so where else could y'all run without going SUPR or Houston? Maybe the Crates aren't the answer. The way hray suggested may be a good idea, keeps options open while seemingly keeping it even. Street Stock Shootout does something similar and their car count is great and you have all kinds of cars show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwhardage Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I do think what Rusty posted would even things out, but I can't see making a late model weigh 2800lbs. That will hurt the class more than completely switching the engine package. Anything over 2400lbs would be where i was going with ridiculous weight penalties. I don't know of late models anywhere else that have minimum weights over 2300lbs. I was asked recently to come up with a rules package that would make it more even for the small motors. What I came up with would be closer than what we have now, but keep all the packages that are already there. I was crucified for offering a softer tire to smaller motors. 3 options to make that more even; chips, tires, weight. I did someone else's dirty work, and got the blood on my hands. Funny part is, the ones that complained the most about what the rules packages were are now selling or have already sold their cars. Bottom line is, we have quite a few cars in the area, but no guarantees on more than the 6 that always show up showing up without a guaranteed purse. Those guys would rather leave the cars sitting on jackstands than take the chance that the purse is cut because somebody didn't make it. If that can't happen, Late models will dry up again in this part of the country. I think there are a few of us that are hedging our bets and preparing to go with crates so that we have somewhere to race when that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
top_shelf_12 Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 That's the dilemma. Track doesn't wanna risk finances and drivers don't wanna show up. IF the track guarantees a big purse and there's STILL just the same 6-8, they take a huge loss and lose interest in trying to keep the class. Generally speaking, fans don't want to see a 6-8 car race either when the other classes have 15-20. Again sucks for the 6-8 of you that always show but those on the fence need to come out and show the track they're serious about continuing and they need to pay out if you guys ALL show up. It's obvious those that are posting are passionate for the class, get the other ones to commit to showing if the track commits to paying that's why most tracks have the purse structure based on car counts. Lets say it's not out of the realm of reality of 12 cars for a full field? Obviously I don't know the track's financial status so if you guys band together and find a class sponsor, that would help tremendously and I know easier said than done but it would take some risk off the track and guarantee some purse for you guys if they don't show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Put yourself in the promoters shoes. He's got a responsibility to do what is necessary to keep the track open. That means, at the very least break even. Claybuster, a lot of technology has changed since 1992. Cam and cylinder head technology. Who do you know in 1992 that could build a 350 flat top steel engine and only turn it 6200 rpm and make 400 ft lbs of torque at 4200 rpm (602 crate). I can now build a 350, 640 hp motor that will turn 8000 rpm and last 2 yrs (and only need heads refreshed). Try that in 1992. Also, last I checked an alum headed motor can run with more advanced timing and leaner fuel mixture (more hp). The biggest advantage though is 75 lbs less on the nose. That allows me to put the lead where it will do the most good which is a definite advantage over the steel motors. Kody, I agree 2800 lbs is excessive for a LM, but I've seen a lot of them that weigh 2600 lbs, so maybe make the max that you'd have to weigh 2600 lbs. Also, you're right about chipping the motors, but that's only a short term fix. If you make me chip my 410 alum motor, but let me keep my 2300 lb weight, I'd just call Comp Cams and tell Chris I need a cam that makes max torque at whatever rpm I'm off the turn and max hp at end of straightaway rpm. I'm right back in the hp and all you've done is make me spend $400 to get there making money the deciding factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Omg. Really ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan68 Posted September 13, 2014 Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 Well sure got quiet guess that's it. keep rules same or what Cody had in mind with the packages he had sure is cheaper to buy tires than motors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 Big 10-4 on that one ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwhardage Posted September 13, 2014 Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 To figure out where all of this is going to go, we need to all get in the same room and get everyone's ideas, concerns out in the open. We need to do this without anyone from any tracks involved, and make the decision, as a group, how we all want to move forward. All we are doing now is stirring up a bunch of chaos. I think the 6-8 regulars we have will race regardless of the rules. Its the other guys' opinions that we need to get. Those are the guys we need to get on board to show up and race. The track has said they want 10 cars. That is not out of reach, but we all need to be on the same page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 I agree.. Not a half ass meeting at the track.. Negative bs on here doesn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrightracing Posted September 13, 2014 Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 Maybe with a smaller motor some will complete races and make consecutive lap times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan68 Posted September 13, 2014 Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 what does a smaller motor have to do with completing races Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplehaze93 Posted September 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 Aww man.. Guess next time I'll just call or text Keith to ask a question .. Maybe I'll get a answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.