Halloween Havoc Late Model payout

[hray]

Purplehaze, Yup, probably would have been best, but it would be nice for all interested parties to get that info.

BTW, I posted some negative stuff that I shouldn't have. I've gone back and edited most of it (probably just should have stopped with my 9/11 post). I really do want to see your class survive. In fact, I'd like to put my car together and participate, but not until things are settled and the class is viable (it's too big an investment to take a chance).

I think Kody is right. Get a driver's meeting somewhere neutral. No one allowed other than drivers and/or car owners. Don't take any votes (because the loudmouths will dominate). Just listen to everyones concerns and suggestions on how to make it work and then formulate a plan and a set of rules in conjunction with the tracks where you want to run and go for it. And don't be afraid to piss off the self centered who think the class revolves around them. Most of them will race anyway and those that don't, won't be missed. You've got to do what's best for the growth of the class, not what seems the path of least resistance.

Just my opinion----I've got lots of those!

[sprintsrule]

I think the first thing everybody needs to realize is the day of the local outlaw dirt late model classes are dead and gone forever in Texas. The big aluminum engines need to go away. It is time to change. We actually had a dirt late model and all of the parts we needed to go race this year. We got rid of it and now have a LLM instead. The reason we switched is the very low car count and purse for the LM class. We want to race against a lot of cars and we did not see the LM class growing with the current rules. We originally bought into the smaller motors being competitive but watching the class certainly did not show this to be true. Granted some of the guys running the smaller motors are doing a great job in beating the big motors at times but it still depends on the track conditions too much. I think anybody getting into the class that wants to be competitive (I mean an opportunity to win every night) would need to run the big aluminum motor. The class will never grow if this is the truth or even if it is just the perception. Trying to level the playing field with tires does not work because once again the track conditions come into play as to who has the advantage. Using the spoilers as the equalizer has the same problem. In my opinion the only way this class will grow is if you have engine rules where a guy or gal can build an engine at home and have a legitimate chance to win at every track and every race. An option for a crate for those that do not have the ability to build their own engine would be good but it has to be done so the track conditions do not determine who will win. The chassis, transmission, tires, etc. with the current rules are affordable. I think the engine, weight and spoiler rules are the main ones which need to be addressed. There are also some other issues like extremely expensive drive shafts which should be addressed as well but are not class killers. I hope the rules get addressed and the class grows because we would love to be a part of it. With the price of good used late models, if the engine rules are done correctly you could have a ready to race car for $10,000 - $12,000 and the class would grow.

[Latemodel82]

The class won't grow when u sell ur cars or don't build them when u have them sitting there. So don't bitch when the car counts not up until u bring a car to up the car count .

[Purplehaze93]

It goes back to when we first started. A lot of people wanted to open up the motor rules.. They said it would help get more cars.. So we did. Well, guess what happened.. The sold their cars! It was always the same people complaining about the rules. They would always say " I'll bring mine when I see 8 or 10 cars.. Never happened.. Then It became a quest to beat that one person that dominated the class. They couldn't out drive him ,so they had to build a bigger motor and out run him.. Didnt happen. I'm sorry but 20 plus years of driving and a hell of a wrench.. You are not gonna simply out motor them... Too much emphasis on motor. Build solid motor, work on set up and DRIVING skills !

[top_shelf_12]

Always said this, the "ones" that win have two advantages over others and until the others figure out how to do the same, they won't beat that one. First one, corner speed. The hot shoes don't slow down as much through the corners. Second one, they can put their car anywhere, not just the preferred line. Like purplehaze said, set up and driving skill, yes a good motor helps but if you can't get through the corners or set the car up to handle that motor power, it won't be too much use. Anyhow, I hope you guys can get it together and get this class running strong. Good luck y'all.

[sprintsrule]

The class won't grow when u sell ur cars or don't build them when u have them sitting there. So don't bitch when the car counts not up until u bring a car to up the car count .

I assume your comment is in reference to my post. If I am correct you need to read my post again. I was not bitching about anything. It was simply my opinion on how you could draw more cars including one from the people I choose to race with. You need to find out why people are not building cars to come run with you instead of acting like nobody's opinion matters unless they race with you now. To grow your class requires you to draw people not currently racing with you. That is how you go from 5 to 20. The pool of people wanting to race to win and willing to buy a $25,000 engine to run for $350 is very small. You need to figure out how you can make the pool of willing people bigger. The only way to do that is to make it more affordable to be competitive. Then you will draw cars and then promoters can pay you more money.

 

There is no doubt Kevin can drive a car. There is no doubt his brother knows how to set one up to be fast. However, there are lots of other people able to do the same thing. You need to figure out how to make it affordable for those people as well and then you will have a show lots of fans want to watch. You can get mad about rules changes and put your car on jack stands or you can look forward to racing against more real racers by making it affordable. It is your choice.

[hray]

Got to agree with Chip. It's nice that 6 of you are loyal to the class, but you really need to hear from the other 15 or so out there that aren't racing with you. This is not a little closed fraternity last I checked. If you want to grow, you need to resolve the issues that are keeping non-participating cars from racing. In my opinion, that means primarily engine rules. Once that's figured out you can begin to tackle smaller issues (shocks, drive shafts, etc). This is going to take several years to get it right without putting too much of a burden on everyone.

The other issue is purse and that's going to require a group effort to get sponsors. You're probably not going to find a large corporate sponsor for a class that only races at Goliad, but you should be able to find multiple small sponsors. For these kind of cars, the purse needs to be somewhere in the $750 - $1000 to win. SOS can't do that on their own.

[cagle69motorsports]

Rules Package, All Aluminum Open Motors, all that other mess stated isn't the problem and it isn't why some of us have not been racing SOS this year. It's the purse, plain and simple. I don't care what Rules Package you run no Late Model class can survive or grow with $350-$250 1st place purse and $25 back from X position.

 

Fix the main issue which is the Purse and cars will start coming back then you can work together to solve the other issues. That "grow the cars and the purse will grow" isn't gonna happen. Last year and the year before the clas averaged 10+ cars each race but the purse didn't grow so no one is going to buy in on that pitch again.

 

There is only 3 tracks in the State that run weekly Late Models, Devils Bowl (SUPR Spec engine only with WRS-2), Battleground (Nesmith) and Shady Oaks (Basially SUPR Rules, Crate 55). The majority of Texas Lateodels are built based on SUPR Rules with the exception of the 10 or so Crates in Houston. Some of these guys would come down to run on off weekends from SUPR if the Purse was worth it. They don't care about having to run a Crate 55 tire, they don't care about a 10" Spoiler they care about making enough money to make it worth the 3-4 hour drive.

 

You start looking at restructuring shocks and drive shafts and all the other components and you alienate yourself from others. Even Nesmith was smart enough to end there fight on Spec shocks and cheaper parts, they abandoned that idea after the teams started fighting back.

 

I hope it works out for all parties both new and old to the class.

 

Kelly

[arob]

Would the SOS Late Models be legal in Houston?

[Purplehaze93]

If they ran a crate motor.

[cagle69motorsports]

Not with there weekly Nesmith class, they are 602-604 Crate Motors only...SUPR comes there twice a year, SOS cars would have to put on an 8" spoiler (unless they are running a SUPR Spec motor) and purchase SUPR stamped tires...

 

Kelly

[sprintsrule]

If you are going to wait for a promoter or sponsor to pay the kind of purse the Late Models need for their current rules package, I think the class will be dead very soon. I think you will need to make it more affordable to get cars into the class and add to the show. The Limited Modifieds are getting paid better now than they did a few years ago because there are more cars and it is a better show than when they first started. The same thing would happen with the Late Models but it has to be reasonably affordable before others will jump in with you. Regardless of the purse.

[drew]

Im gonna use the same motor I have now when I get our LM in the near future...i say cubic inch limit..but i dont care.. Ill run my homebuilt against an open motor...itll just make me drive harder...learn more..and eventually be compeditive....open motors, crate motors..dont care... all the power in the world isnt worth anything if one cant drive it..... also...Kody..let me know what you decide on the rules so I can tell you what we will have so i can make sure we are legal.......

[cagle69motorsports]

Limiteds car count didn't increase because there affordable they increased because I-37 & Edna closed. Before that the Limiteds car count was way down.

 

Devils Bowl pays $750.00 to win $75.00 to start plus a points fund, Promoter secured Sponsor for it. Battleground pays $600.00 to win $100.00 to start, Promoter secured Sponsor for it. Thunder Valley pays $1000.00 to win $75.00 to start, Promoter secured Sponsor for that. All 3 pay full purse regardless of car count.

 

I can only speak for myself and the guys from Houston to Dallas we race with and our issue is Purse not Rules. We made every Late Model race at SOS for the past 3 years and even won the first TSLM points Champuonship the track had but in order to make it worth my while I have to break even, I don't have to be ahead even though it's nice but I do have to break even and I can't do that with the current Purse.

 

Like I said I really hope it works out for all parties involved but I still say fix the Purse and you will fix the car count.

 

Drew your motor and the majority of all the LLM motors would be contenders 1st night out if they were in a LM Tubular Chassis, no doubt in my mind. Good luck to you bro, I know you have been looking forward to this for a few years now.

[sprintsrule]

My mistake. I meant the overall Limited class and not just SOS.

 

Devil's Bowl averaged 8.5 Late Models per race this year according to total appearances divided by number of races. It certainly doesn't appear the purse is drawing cars. Why did the number of races for SUPR drop in half this year? If the promoters are making money then I am sure they would be happy to book the class as much as possible.

 

To break even either the income has to go up or the expenses have to come down. You and I just disagree on which one is easiest to make happen. I think the expense to get in the class and be competitive needs to come down to help draw more cars. Then the promoter could justify paying more to help the gap become smaller.

 

It is funny how the guys with the all aluminum big motors say the all steel smaller motors will be competitive. You do not truly believe that for one second. I am pretty sure if that was true (or even reasonably close to being true) you all would not be wasting money with the all aluminum big motors because they cost over twice as much. It is not only the HP but the weight difference which helps corner speed. You know that and that is why you have one (or two).

 

Either way I hope it all gets straightened out so we can race with you in the near future.

[claybuster]

Several races last year LateMods had the higher car count then the other classes. That includes Lim Mod, Pures, Street Stocks. I don't see any classes just busting at the seams with car count, pures and LimMod are average. Mods avg. 6? Dwarfs 6? SS 5-9 some nights more others not enough?

Who paid 25k for a latemodel motor? Damn should have asked somebody.... One we have was bought in the 4digit numbers not 5 digit. I built/rebuilt Jesse's motor, I also weighed it, as well as ours. You would be surprised....Hray! Back then, we had more in the "sportsman" engines than the Aluminum one we have now. Also don't have to run its tounge out, much lower RPM. Your right, not valid comparison, one built from scratch, and another bought off the used market.

Wake up, 20 yrs ago the purse was basically no different in ALL classes not just latemodels. Cost to get in the gate has gone up, along came registration fee, used to be car and driver, now its car+driver. The tracks keep increasing cost to cover their cost, but who really puts the show on? It takes both parties.... Most can not afford to pay gas money, entry fee, pit passes, registration, concessions, etc... and loose money every night even when they win. Not good business sense on both ends. We do it because we enjoy it, but it cant go on forever, Right??

We have done the Crate/Built motor, we were the only one to run a crate. Then they wanted to step up, then up, so here we are.

I am in no way just pointing at SOS, its going on in a lot of places, way I see it, successful tracks will recognize who is buttering their bread, and return the favor.

 

BTW, we have been outrun, Chris Holley, Ricky Begnaud(in a crate), Steve W Jr., Robbie Starnes, GW Hessong have all out ran us, just keeps us all in check. It can be done, do your shopwork, and work hard.

[claybuster]

Next topic, what can be done to increase all participation?

[Purplehaze93]

Amen!

[cagle69motorsports]

Devils Bowl went with a different set of Rules last year that cut the class from 15-20 weekly to give or take 8-10. Upset a good portion of the drivers because the Rule Package they ran before last year was one they had ran for many years. Drivers had a lot of money invested on those rules over time, so forth so on. When they changed the Rules last year those that didn't like the change went to a track in Oklahoma actually called SOS, lol. Lanny went back to the old Rules Package this year and now he is in the re-building stage of the class. He will get the count back up, this year is his healing stage so to speak.

 

SUPR schedule has dwindled down for several reasons. Car count to cost of the show to profit made is defiantly a reason. A good number of the teams that ran with SUPR went to an Open Package to be able to run more than just SUPR and an Open Package against a SUPR Spec engine with that 12" parachute they call a spoiler is hard to do.

 

No doubt we both agree on the issue just different opinions on the solution. Late Models of any kind are expensive, always have been and always will be and that will never change. Heck everything related to racing in any class has gotten out of hand when it comes to cost. When I say break even I am talking about the expense to get back and forth from the track, running local you will never make up the cost of the car. That's an accepted fact by everyone but you have to at least break even on the expenses there and back.

 

I didn't have an all aluminum motor until last year, I ran a steel block SUPR 362 for 3yrs before I got the all aluminum motor. Your correct, the all aluminum big engines are better for several reasons and I bought 1 for every one of those reasons. Can an all steel motor win at SOS against an all aluminum? Depends on the person behind the wheel and the person doing the set up as well as the track conditions. But you can buy an all aluminum motor right now with 1 freshen on it $10,000-$15,000. I know people spending $10,000 on a Limited Mod motor. You don't have to buy a brand new all aluminum motor with all the bells and whistles costing you $30,000 to win at SOS. Some may think that but that is far from the truth.

 

I hope they get it sorted out, these guys have a lot of hard earned money invested in the current rules package. It may be easy for some to flip a car over to a new set of rules but for most your talking 2-3 years possibly so what have you really accomplished other then cutting the class even more. I still say fix the purse and cars will come back as well as some that already exists under SUPR Rules.

 

I'm sure we will race together somewhere at some point and time.

 

Kelly

[hray]

You guys just don't get it. You want the track to fix the purse on the promise the car count will increase. The track wants you to increase the car count so the purse can be increased. Who do you think has the upper hand on this one? If the track can't or won't increase the purse, what are you going to do - quit?! Ha Ha! The track cancels the class for lack of participation.....problem solved.

Listen to what Chip is trying to tell you. Make the class less expensive to get into and at the same time, go get your own class sponsors to help with the purse. Let the big cube alum motors run, but with weight penalties (especially in front of the firewall). At some point, the alum motors will phase themselves out.

You guys have gotten yourselves into a no win situation. It took several years to get here and if you're willing to do it, you're going to have to move back over time. Otherwise, if you race, it'll be in Houston with a crate motor.

[NickHolt]

It boils down to Budget 101.

 

Tracks have expenses and income. If expenses exceed income. Track closes.

 

Teams have expenses and income. Expenses, except in race cases, exceed income. Racers are adrenalin addicts so they beg, borrow steal to keep racing. This ain't gonna change even if they have to race down a country road somewhere.

 

Here are some (there a more for sure) possible fixes for area tracks to stay alive:

 

1) Rich owner doesn't mind losing 100K a year. Ain't many of those around these days. We used to have a few, but the BS they had to suffer from irate, self-centered racers was more than they wanted to endure. Padlock goes on pit gate and off they go to do something a whole lot more fun.

 

2) Saavy owner is a PR whiz kid and talks many area businesses into investing mega-bucks. Race, but we all have heard of one or two. John Mandabach at HMP has been able to land some very helpful deals with Houston area businesses. John has years of experience (and a degree) in marketing and resource development that have paid huge dividends to the asphalt side of the house.

 

3) Racers put their individual differences aside and actually promote their track and their class. This is a trend we are seeing lately which is a very good thing. However, they too have to contend with the irate, self-centered racers who use social media to blast the folks who are doing positive stuff for the sport out of the water. We see that happening right now.

 

4) Track owners in a given area join together to form an organization to work on common rules, respect each others' schedules, create special season-long championships and big events featuring their "common rules" classes. Also share staff, expenses, seek advertising $$ as a group to attract regional and local sponsors.

 

I'm sure there are more, but to me the last two seem the best hope in the short term.

 

In the meantime, all this BS about which rules suits me best and screw the rest of you has to stop. I try to keep it to a bare minimum on LSSZ, but all that happens is that the irate, self-centered idiots move over to Facebook and launch their bitch sessions over there.

 

Nick

[hray]

That probably put the exclamation point on this thread.

Good Luck!

[NickHolt]

Rusty,

 

As you well know, I don't mind civil discussions about rules, purses, constructive suggestions, etc.

 

Here's what I mean by irate, self-centered idiots:

 

"This track is stupid if they think I'm gonna race under those rules, that purse, etc."

 

"I'm never going to race at this track again unless they see it my way."

 

"My car is for sale since the track won't see it my way."

 

"That track plays favorites since they won't see it my way."

 

"Good luck with your sorry, good-for-nothing track. I'm going to go race at..... instead.

 

"I'm putting my car on jack stands until that sorry ass track gets it's crap together."

 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

We don't see those sorts of comments too much on LSSZ any more, but just go on over to Facebook and have a good look.

 

I am in discussions right now with a track owner who says they are about ready to throw in the towel due to the abuse being hurled at them on Facebook.

 

Very sad to see.

[Purplehaze93]

Hey Nick, I guess it was my bad for posting in the first place. After all I asked a simple question ( which I now have the answer to) , as to what they were going to pay , because I was willing to throw some of my Hard earned money into it. Just wanted to get an amount and get it posted so we could put it out there. Not wait till the last Minute.

[NickHolt]

Hey Nick, I guess it was my bad for posting in the first place. After all I asked a simple question ( which I now have the answer to) , as to what they were going to pay , because I was willing to throw some of my Hard earned money into it. Just wanted to get an amount and get it posted so we could put it out there. Not wait till the last Minute.

 

Topic is legit. It was a good question and it stimulated a lot of very positive discussion. And you got your answer!

 

What you don't see are the two posts that were made that were derogatory towards the track which, thankfully, I caught right away and removed. I was speaking to the boo-birds, not you or the rest of the folks who have participated in this thread so far.

 

For the most part this has been a very positive and enlightening thread. It's obvious that the class has some issues to work out and Lone Star Speedzone is a safe place to have these sorts of discussions.

 

Nick