NickHolt Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 But like I have asked what should happen let the track police it or the drivers ? Well, Mr. Colgate, if you're looking for the final answer, you'll be looking a long time. This topic has been with us since Ben Hur's rough driving experience at the Roman Coliseum 500 a few years back. There always has been, and there always be, differences of opinion as to how rough driving should be dealt with. Some tracks actually encourage rough driving. Others let the drivers sort it out. Some try to make it a non-contact sport and sideline anyone making contact with anyone else. Others just hope the problem will go away and pretend there is no problem. A few try to act as fair, impartial judges and look at each racing incident and decide what to do about it, if anything, on a case by case basis, usually on the fly. The last method rarely works well because racers have fantastic memories and can go back in time and point out how the track is "playing favorites" since they didn't handle a similar situation in exactly the same way... You get the picture. Most of us have very strong opinions as to which method should be employed, but, as HiTech has so accurately pointed out, it's pretty much the promoter/race director who sets the guidelines. I personally have become convinced that the so-called Madhouse Rules work the best. We didn't call it Madhouse Rules back in the 1960's and 1970's, but that was basically the way rough driving was handled back in the "good old days." From personal experience, I can assure you that no matter which approach a track/series takes, there will be folks who strongly disagree with that approach. Just the nature of the beast. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radracr Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 I personally do not like rough driving. But what is rough driving? To me it's a guy/gal who has a motive other than trying to beat the rest of the pack to the checkers. Just recently I watched a video of a race that I recently ran in. During the race I couldn't objectively explain what had happened. But, after playing a section of that video over and over again I have come to the conclusion that that driver has another motive. (Notice I used the word 'has'.) Had they accomplished what I believe they set out to do the particular car they are after would likely have not been the same. I am all for rubbing, nudging and door-to-door wheel marks. ANYTHING beyond that is rough driving. If you cannot pass someone in front of you without 'rough driving' then finish the race, work on your car and come back stronger!! So, who should police it? I would like to believe the drivers can handle this. But one problem: more than likely they will do so inside a 2 ton moving car. F=MA. If the track handles it, the parties involved will STILL feel compelled to resolve things their way. I like to race hard and clean. It takes a driver with better skills and equipment to win then it does to put someone in the wall and go on to collect the checkers. But that's just pride to me. Others don't have that. One last thing, The thing I hate the most is when I do confront a driver who was 'rough driving' and they respond by saying something like, "I don't know what happened." Or, "Sorry I didn't mean to do that." BS! Yes you did! You're just a coward! Step up to the plate and be a man (or woman) and say, "Sorry, you were in my way and I had to go!" I'll have more respect for you if you just tell the truth then hide behind a lie like a punk kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodneyRodriguez Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 I do agree, if there is an obvious situation happening the officials may determine and react. But that is the fact that a call must be made. Sometimes it is obvious, other times there really is something causing it so it can be a roll of the dice. I do not envy the race officials, much easier said than done but if it is constant odds are someone needs to step in and address it.. otherwise we all race together and know each others tendancies and styles so sometimes you just have to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorboy Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 I don't think it's always the track that should make decisions on that stuff, If someone races you clean you race them clean. If someone uses the bump and run on you it's ok to do to them. But always remember most contact is just racing and there is no reason to retaliate. I usually go to the races by myself and don't have a crew to keep me fired up on how some other driver screwed me over, I usually end up thinking of some way I could have avoided the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrungot Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Well.. problem is.. the person that start's it gets away.. the person who goes for the payback seems to be the only one that gets in trouble... Hummm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastmontgomery15 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 WELL I `LL SAY THIS I RATHIER OUR GUYS BE ABLE TO RACE CLEAN AND THE FANS SAY WOW NOW THATS WHAT I CALL A GOOD RACE THEN HAVING US TOWED TO THE PITS CUSSING AND FIGHTING. BUT THEIR IS A BOILING POINT WHEN YOU GET DROVE THE SAME WAY RACE AFTER RACE. TAKE YOUR ASS WHIPPING ON THE TRACK LIKE A MAN OR WOMAN AND MOVE ON TO THE NEXT RACE. PEOPLE WILL RACE YOU LIKE YOU RACE THEM. NOBODY LIKES TO LOSE. I SPEND LOTS OF MONEY ON MY SONS CAR AND I DONT WANT TO COME HOME AFTER EVERY RACE AND FIX MY CAR!!! LETS RACE AND HAVE SOME FUN!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alloutpc17 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 WELL I `LL SAY THIS I RATHIER OUR GUYS BE ABLE TO RACE CLEAN AND THE FANS SAY WOW NOW THATS WHAT I CALL A GOOD RACE THEN HAVING US TOWED TO THE PITS CUSSING AND FIGHTING. BUT THEIR IS A BOILING POINT WHEN YOU GET DROVE THE SAME WAY RACE AFTER RACE. TAKE YOUR ASS WHIPPING ON THE TRACK LIKE A MAN OR WOMAN AND MOVE ON TO THE NEXT RACE. PEOPLE WILL RACE YOU LIKE YOU RACE THEM. NOBODY LIKES TO LOSE. I SPEND LOTS OF MONEY ON MY SONS CAR AND I DONT WANT TO COME HOME AFTER EVERY RACE AND FIX MY CAR!!! LETS RACE AND HAVE SOME FUN!!!!!!! AGREED. But remember, kindness kills and makes them even more mad when you don't show emotion cause that's what they are expecting in some situations and then they get confused. LOL. That's what i do. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racechick Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Did you see what happened at Five Flags when a driver "took care of it on the track" could've killed many people under caution... But I am sure you would have a bad reaction to it, if you were on the receiving end rather then the giving end.. no one is ever going to be happy, either officials are to quick to jump on someone about rough driving or officials don't do anything about it. It's always gonna be a lose lose situation just like the "all involved" or "make a call" rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 These latest few comments are really funny to me... let me explain. When I was getting my Masters in Experimental Psychology at UTSA several years ago, one of the social psychologists on staff was studying "road rage." He knew of my involvement in motorsports and asked if perhaps I could locate a few volunteers to form one of the control groups. After testing two or three got back with me and said that he didn't need any more racers. He never really looked at me as if I were sane after that... LOL Nick I think that would be the "out of control" group... Incidentally - as a crewman I have turned laps just as fast as our track champions. I did enter and do well in an enduro (protracted demo derby). But have steadfastly refused to be a driver for competition purposes. Simply because I KNOW I can not control the urge to rough drive. I agree 1000% that it starts with the drivers. they MUST know their limitations and be man enough to admit when they are exceeded through either anger or impulse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco31 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Just keep smiling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast18 Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 When someone would beat on me every week I would bow their quarters when the opportunity presented itself or repay them and make it looks like an accident. I quit that years ago. I'm sure if someone wronged me week to week I would probably go back to my old ways. Nick said it best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodneyRodriguez Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Some tracks actually encourage rough driving. Others let the drivers sort it out. Some try to make it a non-contact sport and sideline anyone making contact with anyone else. Others just hope the problem will go away and pretend there is no problem. A few try to act as fair, impartial judges and look at each racing incident and decide what to do about it, if anything, on a case by case basis, usually on the fly. The last method rarely works well because racers have fantastic memories and can go back in time and point out how the track is "playing favorites" since they didn't handle a similar situation in exactly the same way... You get the picture. Soooo.... have you guys decided??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Soooo.... have you guys decided??? i have decided racers are a sick bunch....and there is no cure .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumper Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Just go faster.They cant hit you if they cant catch you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastmontgomery15 Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Just go faster.They cant hit you if they cant catch you. LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertx Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Everybody talks about rough driving,what I've seen the last few years is mild to what it was 10 or 20 years ago,you don't hardly see anybody rub anymore.JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Everybody talks about rough driving,what I've seen the last few years is mild to what it was 10 or 20 years ago,you don't hardly see anybody rub anymore.JMO "Rubbing" is becoming a lost art being replaced by "Running Over." Tire marks on the door are being replaced by bumper marks on the left rear quarter panel. Grins and handshakes in the pits after a race that had some rubbing is a thing of the past... None of the interventions by tracks seem to work very well, but I do see some genuine common sense in using the so-called "Madhouse Rules" when used in conjunction with the black flag for "flagrant' on-track behavior. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Honestly, i think the only answer is the track decides. They are as close to a neutral party as you can get. Or atleast are suppose to be. Drivers are filled with emotion and rarely can see all the angles like the officials. That being said, drivers can see what officials cant. Ive followed two cars purposely beating each other to death side by side for a few laps. Not racing either, just pissed at each other. The officials statement was good clean, hard racing. Both drivers left that night wondering what constitutes rough driving. I tried ti let the officials know what i saw, i was quickly turned away being told they seen the whole thing. Ive since given up on some offials and their ability to SEE what is happening. As for rough driving now as opposed to 20 years ago, well back then you could fix a quarter panel with a 7 dollat hammer and a block of wood. Now its a 100 dollar piece of fiberglass, 15 bucks worth of rivets, 3 days of shipping charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Honestly, i think the only answer is the track decides. They are as close to a neutral party as you can get. Or atleast are suppose to be. Drivers are filled with emotion and rarely can see all the angles like the officials. That being said, drivers can see what officials cant. Ive followed two cars purposely beating each other to death side by side for a few laps. Not racing either, just pissed at each other. The officials statement was good clean, hard racing. Both drivers left that night wondering what constitutes rough driving. I tried ti let the officials know what i saw, i was quickly turned away being told they seen the whole thing. Ive since given up on some offials and their ability to SEE what is happening. As for rough driving now as opposed to 20 years ago, well back then you could fix a quarter panel with a 7 dollat hammer and a block of wood. Now its a 100 dollar piece of fiberglass, 15 bucks worth of rivets, 3 days of shipping charges. USE TO OWN ONE OF THOSE HAMMERS .......DO THEY STILL SELL THEM ......AND NICK I AGREE WITH YOU ..RUBBING IS A LOST ART ...... BACK WHEN I RACED .IF I HIT SOMEONE .OR RUBBED THEM I COULD EXSPECT TO GET IT BACK ..NO PROBLEM ...WE DID IT AGAIN WEEK AFTER WEEK ,BUT UNDERSTOOD IT WAS PART OF HARD RACEN ...NOW EVERYONE IS TOO TOUCHY AND MOST DRIVERS DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENT'S . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrungot Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I have no problem with driving Door to Door with someone "I trust" you earn that trust. aka Respect one of the major problems is everyone seems to think that there is only one lane at THR.. There is a Perfered line.. but that doesnt' mean you can't make a pass on the outside... Everyone seems to think you have to "Move someone" going into 3/off 4... thing is.. if you know how to get of turn 2.. you can actually Rocket down the back & be side by side wiht them going into 3. But if they don't look in the peep mirror and adjust their line into 3 Your wrecking! How many people go out and Practice the outside line? You will only get better at it if you do... And with double file restarts... seems like a no brainer.. if your hung up on the outside.. better be fighting for your spot and not but putting the other guy in the grass... Bottom line... Respect is Earned... and Driving skill learned by doing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastmontgomery15 Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I have no problem with driving Door to Door with someone "I trust" you earn that trust. aka Respect one of the major problems is everyone seems to think that there is only one lane at THR.. There is a Perfered line.. but that doesnt' mean you can't make a pass on the outside... Everyone seems to think you have to "Move someone" going into 3/off 4... thing is.. if you know how to get of turn 2.. you can actually Rocket down the back & be side by side wiht them going into 3. But if they don't look in the peep mirror and adjust their line into 3 Your wrecking! How many people go out and Practice the outside line? You will only get better at it if you do... And with double file restarts... seems like a no brainer.. if your hung up on the outside.. better be fighting for your spot and not but putting the other guy in the grass... Bottom line... Respect is Earned... and Driving skill learned by doing.. WELL SAID THERE BIG "A"!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgate Posted May 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 you got that right BIG A.....it is earned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastman Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Actually it's not about coming off turn 2, its all about coming off turn 4 and setting yourself up for the turn 1 entry, thats what sets up the turn 2 exit. Who cares about 3, by the time that comes you are side by side and the out side car has no where to go except high and has a horrible turn 4 exit and you will have him by 2 or 3 cars by the time you enter turn 1. After all that, if your fast enough do it again to the next car you catch. As for passing on the outside, thats not very hard so long as you are not trying to pass a car that is allmost equally as fast as you are. I can remember lots of races and if others remember right I have never wrecked someone or even caused someone to spin, I dont race that way and have still been able to win the race, someone please remind me of a race I wrecked someone and I will bow down, but be known I have the videos to 99% of all my runs. The inside lane is by far the fastest way around THR, no if's and's or but's about it. Boy O Boy do I miss racing, if I had the time I would be there week after week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW THAT IS WHAT i CALL WELL SAID OR SHALL I SAY WELL ORCHESTRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast18 Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 Yes rubbing is racing. Use the orange cone and go outside and have fun. My last race I have donuts up and down my left side and my frontend was toed in 1" but I wasn't wrecked...and I had fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 Yes rubbing is racing. Use the orange cone and go outside and have fun. My last race I have donuts up and down my left side and my frontend was toed in 1" but I wasn't wrecked...and I had fun. finally a happy post ..... i have had a few of those tasty donuts ..my favorite .as for stomping the toe ..had em in and out that far ,,,and still loved every minute of those races ...a happy fix when you have had a tight hard fault race .with respect between drivers .of course.......glad your one of em .who can still have fun knowing your car isn't the same as before the race ...keep it up ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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