THR not having TSRS Series in 2004

[krusty_rusty]

Well said Mary ann

[Jason]

A few weeks back I had a post about series and tracks in Texas and some of my ideas. The tracks need to build up their weekly schedule or there wont be a place to race. I think it was a smart business decision and it can only help the situation at THR for its LLM class. The reason series that take cars from local tracks with nearly the same rules cannot coexist is that there are not enough racers in Texas. Tracks need to build up their weekly class and have touring series come in for special events.

 

Jason

[NickHolt]

Dave,

 

Why would I edit anything in Mary Ann's post? It was not bashing anyone. It was polite in tone. It was not aggressive or combatative. It did not contain foul or obscene language. It was on topic and very well thought out. In short, it was the sort of post that should serve as a model for others to emulate. Thank you Mary Ann for putting so much time and thought into your post.

 

And as far as no beer for me at the TSRS banquet, I have not been invited to attend. Mary Ann did email me for my address, but so far the mailbox has been empty (except for the usual bills and junk mail). In case it never arrives, have a cold one for me, Dave!

 

Nick Holt

[jracer98]

Supertx,

I don't have a dog in the TSRS fight but I think the answer to your question of how the dirt track gets a car count of 300 for a big year end show is two fold.

1. they have a big payout for 1st place that looks real good in the event flyers.

2. Think of the dirt car's "state car count" of mods that have similar rules versus the "state car count" of pavement cars that are even further subdivided by rules differences.

JMO.

Jay

[mitchellracer]

Jason, I respect you for all that you have done with this website, however, I really am having a problem with the "take" word in your reply.

 

Several years ago, league bowling was declining in membership. A group of bowlers formed together to establish a traveling league, to allow bowlers to step up to the next level without making the HUGE step to professional bowling. Bowlers competed as a team in different houses in different cities giving all bowling centers a piece of the pie. Bowling centers PAID a franchise fee for being included in the traveling league and teams paid a fee also. Bowling centers received revenues from lineage, concessions and bowling supplies. Travel league only bowled once or twice a month.

 

Now we have the same situation with the tracks and it is apparent something had to be done or changed. Along came another traveling series that became a success. Why would it be a "good" business decision to not allow the series at the track? Granted maybe only schedule 2 or 3 appearances but to totally right off car counts that were present at each event.

 

My goodness, I know of each car having a least 3 crew members in the pits, family members in the stands as well as any local sponsors of the cars. So why don't I understand the logic?

 

Business decisions must be made on fact. Personal feelings cannot play a part in business decisions. I pray that this was not the case.

 

Thank you for your patience in reading my rambling but as Mr. 04 said

 

MAYBE NEXT YEAR

 

Christy Ganem

aka Mitchellracer

[NickHolt]

I have edited a few posts where particular drivers or racing incidents were brought up in this thread. There is no need to bring up past racing incidents in a discussion such as the one taking place in this thread.

 

For the most part, people have made their points without much bashing. I appreciate that.

 

Nick Holt

[Slash]

Jason. I hear where you are coming from but I would have to disagree! If my memory is correct in your earlier post it basically came across as there is no need for a traveling late model series in Texas. TSRS gave an opportunity to a good percentage of racers to compete for a Championship in a late model class that otherwise they would not have been able to do so at THR/SAS. Not all owners/drivers can afford to travel and race every weekend. TSRS not only offered them an opportunity to race a limited schedule but also a chance to race at home on occasion.

 

If the series drew a few cars from THR is that TSRS's Fault? I have a hard time believing that....Lets do the math. TSRS ran 11 races last sesion, Two of those races where post session races for THR, Three races at THR during their session, One of those races held on a Friday night. so what is left? 5 races in which TSRS directly competed with THR. The question would then have to be, Could THR have done something to attract those drivers on TSRS's off nights. I don't think they did.....Which brings me back to one of my earlier post. As a business if you do nothing to attract your clients then the competition will. Just food for thought. What would have happened if say Longhorn and HMP would have started up a late model class? Would some of the same drivers opted to race at those tracks instead of THR? If so, then the same people that complain about TSRS would then be stating that those tracks stole their cars.

 

My moma always told me "you can never blame anyone else for you own misfortune only yourself"

 

Slash.

[SVCMNGR1]

I've known SLASH for 8 years and that is absolutely the smartest thing I have ever heard him say. LOL That is what is so great about this forum. I feel that some of the points made here will really get folks thinking about ways to improve racing in Texas. With this many great minds (LOL) working on the problems we are experiencing, we are bound to come up with some great solutions.

[rebelracewriter]

supertx and Slash, As Jracer98 pointed out, the main reason dirt tracks can have such a high car count is uniformity in rules. So there are tons of cars that can go any number of tracks to race, be legal and competitive. Many tracks run under IMCA santion, several under UMP sanction, with only a limited number under "their own" rules, like Devils Bowl(USA) and McAllen(Open). Right now in Texas there is really only 1(one) dirt touring series, TOBA(Bombers). Every track, despite their rules, runs a bomber class, that due to the cost efficiency is overflowing with cars. There are a few major touring series that run in Texas, like World of Outlaws, ASCS(Sprints) or SUPR(Late Models), but VERY few tracks can afford the cost to hold one of these shows and all cover more states than just Texas. Heck, even TMS dropped their UDTRA(X-Treme) Late Model shows because they cost more than the dirt track took in!

 

Slash, one additional point, I know of several guys that ran TSRS instead of THR purely for economic reasons(limited schedule vs full time schedule) not because of anything THR did or didn't do. You may even know a couple of them. LOL

 

Jim, I did some research on Northeast race tracks, there are 22 pavement short tracks in the 6 NE states. Texas has 5 if you include Wichita Falls, 6 if you add TMS, which doesn't run a weekly show. So there are basically 5 times as many tracks to cover weekly/touring series classes.

[Jason]

Let me explain further. THR and most asphalt tracks in Texas are not doing as good as they should be. There are many factors involved and I think one is dwindling car counts. TSRS has grown to be large but where did these drivers come from? I understand the Houston guys aren't happy but maybe you guys should get with Graham and talk with him. What I said in a previous post is that there really only needs to be 3 asphalr series in Texas. Super Latemodels, Mods, and Trucks. The other series should be local classes. Again I will state that I think the track owners/operators need to get together and take control of the situation. Have similar rules and have series only come in a few times a year. Brian has to do something. Where will TSRS race at without any tracks open?

[racerjim2]

well the results of my unscientfic servey of how many times a month do the drivers want to race. The #1 was 2 times a month 16 votes #2was a tie between 3 times a month and more than 4 times a month both recieved 3 votes each, next finishing 4th was once a week recieved 2 votes, and bring up the rear was once a month that recieved only 1 vote.I dont think anyone would have guessed 64% of the responses would have been 2 times a month maybe this is part of the reason TSRS has had the sucess they have this year.

[Jason]

Maybe Brian should run LM's every other week and find something else to fill the void on off weeks?

[jp17]

This gets more and more entertaining. The anti-TSRS crowd keeps patting one another on the back for finding a new angle to bash the series but not one of ya’ll has offered even a hint of evidence to show that TSRS has hurt THR or any other track. Instead you just assume that because THR car counts aren’t what they once were that TSRS must have stolen “their” cars. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but those expressed without substance are a waste of time and words. Those expressed without personal experience are even less worthy of consideration. Let’s examine some facts.

 

The decline in the average number of Late Models competing at THR from 2002 to 2003 was not the worst the track has seen. There have been other years where the average car count dropped more and no one said a thing. Of course in those years there wasn’t a convenient excuse like TSRS to blame. The only other event that seems to coincide with the sudden and steady decline in THR car counts is Mary Ann’s departure from the track. I’m not suggesting that it is a cause but look at the numbers before and after her tenure and there is a huge difference, much more so than before and after TSRS.

 

Of the roughly 13 Austin area drivers that competed in TSRS races only two spent more time racing TSRS than in the weekly show at THR. Ironically those 2 drivers finished 1-2 in TSRS points. The other Austin area teams spent the majority of their time running the 30 lap weekly show at THR. What did change is that racers from outside the Austin area quit traveling to THR to run the weekly show. With one exception every single car that competed in any THR weekly show this year called the Austin area home. You want an accurate count of how many local teams THR can attract without TSRS, add 2-3 cars to each weeks car count and there’s you number.

 

Given the above is it reasonable to assume that THR’s decision to bolster it’s long ailing car counts was based on economics rather than emotion? Perhaps. For the sake of argument let’s assume so. If THR succeeded in eliminating TSRS from the face of the earth and benefited by an average of, say, 6 cars a night, the net (back gate vs. purse expense) revenue increase for the season would be $5500.00. Conversely booking TSRS 4 times a year might actually cost the track money, about five hundred bucks for the season. Obviously none of this includes front gate revenue, concession income, etc. which would likely narrow or eliminate that gap considerably. Still, on the surface, a $6000.00 swing is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Perhaps THR’s decision was based on long-term economics, i.e. 6 more cars next year, 8 the next, etc. etc. The pre-TSRS downward trend in car counts alone would refute this but for the sake of argument lets bet on the come. SAS eliminated the SSS class so you’re bound to inherit some of those cars, right? Not likely. More former SAS cars sat idle this past year than ran with TSRS. None of those cars or the ones that raced TSRS competed THR. I don’t know why but in years past, even big post-season events with rules concessions to attract SAS cars failed to do so. For some reason THR has never been able to convince San Antonio racers to make the drive up I-35. Given that SAS has apparently decided to allow TSRS/THR cars back into the fold I would suggest the trend will continue. On the other hand, Houston-based teams have, since mid-1999, comprised, by far, the largest percentage of “imported” cars at THR. It’s important to note that the timing also coincides with the Houston track effectively closing it’s doors. HMP has re-opened and it is reasonable to assume most if not all of the Houston based teams would compete there were it not for TSRS.

 

All that said, I think that if I were a track owner and faced with what is going on at THR I would have to look hard at a series that puts more cars on the track than any other in the state. It might be a bitter pill to swallow but I’d have to admit that TSRS accomplished in a very short time something that I had not been able to do in several years, attract a ton of limited late model type cars. I’d like to think that I would see this as an opportunity to create some excitement in an ailing class, cross promote, and join forces whenever possible. I am relatively certain that I wouldn’t intentionally make the vast majority of the very people I am trying to attract very angry, hope they’ll get over it and come give me their money again. I do know that I would always keep in mind that racers can always park their cars but I can’t park my track. Then again, I am not a track owner and thankfully I don’t have to make these types of decisions.

 

Thank you Brian and Jim for THR. We had a lot of fun there. Perhaps one day things will settle down and we can again. JP

[racerjim2]

a sucessful man once said " I dont have competors ,I just have customers"we should all think about this statement and see that it applies to racing as well.Speedways have customers as fans, racers and sponsors.

[NickHolt]

JP,

 

As usual, a well thought-out post.

 

And since we're offering different possible scenarios, what if Graham Baker were to hit the lottery and announced his intentions to pay a decent purse (similar to or even better than the TSRS purse) for LLM cars to run as a weekely (or semi-weekly) class at Houston Motorsports Park? Do you think the Houston Connection would still choose to run the entire TSRS series or do you think they would only run TSRS when they were booked into HMP and support their HMP class the rest of the time? I know that this is a rhetorical question, but is it simply my attempt to get you to see the same picture from a different, more personal perspective.

 

When you start looking at it from your "home track" perspective, things change a bit.

 

Taking this scenario a step further, if Graham suddenly decided (for whatever reason) not to book TSRS in the future, the HMP LLM teams that were also supporting TSRS when they ran at HMP would have to decide whether to stick with the local program or leave the home track to travel with the TSRS. Either way, there are plusses and minuses to consider.

 

I'm not taking sides in this one, JP, because I truly admire what Mary Ann has done with the TSRS and understand why TSRS has achieved so much success. But I can also understand that local tracks need to be thriving, not just surviving, if racing is to become a successful enterprise in Central / South Texas. While you may not agree with the decision Brian has made regarding TSRS, it certainly is understandable.

 

Nick Holt

[jp17]

Your scenario isn't an apples to apples comparison but for the sake of argument lets run with it. If HMP paid $1000 to win every Sat. night there would be exactly 8 local cars available to race. I can't speak for the other guys but my team enjoys traveling to other tracks and racing against the best of the best llm teams in the state so I suspect we'd do exactly what the majority of the top five in points at THR did this past season, race both TSRS and locally full time. Your scenario suggests if Graham then disallowed TSRS we'd be forced to make a choice, we wouldn't. We could still run both but as one of only 8 local teams we'd understand that HMP was having to "import" out of town cars to make a respectable field. We'd know this first hand because we'd have been there on the nights before TSRS existed and when only local cars showed up there were but 8 of us. If, like THR, the track then made a decision to disallow TSRS I'd be equally as upset as I am now. Knowing that even after 5 years the local cars alone couldn't support an adequate llm class I'd feel drawing a line in the sand was a mistake and urge Graham to re-consider. I'd be fearful that this was the beginning of the end for the local class because we've now eliminated the only races where our car counts had any chance of sustaining the class. Furthermore we did it in a way that really ticked off those teams making their return to the track unlikely. I'd feel betrayed by the track for running off the vast majority of the cars needed to thrive and wonder then as I do now why we didn't re-negotiate with the series to be here more often under mutually profitable circumstances. That said I'd be less likely to race locally very often the following season. That's just me though. JP

[ChuckLicata]

But I can also understand that local tracks need to be thriving, not just surviving, if racing is to become a successful enterprise in Central / South Texas.  While you may not agree with the decision Brian has made regarding TSRS, it certainly is understandable.

 

Nick Holt

Speaking as a Media person, here's the problem..

If there was a TRUE spirit of co-operation, local tracks would find a way to to work with touring series so BOTH could thrive and be successful. Seems to work EVERYWHERE else!

[97car]

How about this,I personally liked the way THR scheduled the shows in the previous seasons better,you had something different every weekend and yes they did prety much this year too,but I liked going to see the local show mixed with one or two bigger or different shows each night i went,also this should lower having to put up such a big chunk of change to see a show much less put it on when you have a special.Why not have the TSRS there say twice a month let the limited class run with them and have a fair purse and point fund. It seems there are enough other series to be booked as the top class each night. THRs biggest class is the street stocks anyway,and if the other tracks would work together they could have a good variety show each week this way. The most lmtd. late models I recall seeing on a weekly basis was only 13-14 cars any,why not have 30+ twice a month?Think about it yes you might have to put a little more money up,but you would also have more cars and people too,and maybe we could see their show instead of having to leave at midnight. TSRS another suggestion have your guys run scanners,it helps with the lineup and saving cars if there is a crash on the track,for example at Octoberfast in TPS practice we could have lost 12 cars in a practice spinout,but everyone was alerted in time due to the scanners,and they are a lot cheaper then rebuilding a car after each race.

[NickHolt]

Chuck,

 

Seems to work EVERYWHERE else

 

Not so... Just look at the recent war between the Pro4 people and Orange Show Speedway on the west coast. They are still reeling from that one. And in New England, the ACT tour and Busch North waged war not only between themselves, but also with the various local tracks they ran at. And I Florida, there have been numerous battles waged between tracks and touring series.

 

I'm not condoning the apparent squabble between THR and TSRS, just pointing out that this problem is not unique to THR and TRSR.

 

Nick Holt

[Chuckman]

Well put JP

Was the car count down the year before? YES

Was this from TSRS? NO

I have ran LLM at THR for several years now

and there never has been a very good car

count.THR even talked about not running the class

at all at one time,but stuck with it and some

nights we had good car count most nights we didn't.

I enjoy running different tracks with TSRS something

that I wasn't able to do before because of the rules.

If THR wants to run off the LLM cars they are going

about it the right way.As for not having a full schedule

to run lets try and get CC on the schedule and run

Houston a few more times a year.Either way TSRS is

here to stay and will continue to grow,sorry so many

cars showed up Mary Ann,but when you are treated

as well as you are with TSRS it would be hard to run

with another series or track.

 

 

Charles Buxton

Driver and co-owner

TSRS # 77

For those that don't know

[Jason]

I heard a rumor that CC wont have any TSRS race next year. Again only a rumor. With 2 races at SAS (paired with ROMCO?) they will have to have the rest at Houston or maybe they can race up in Wichita?

[SASPEEDRACER24]

I know this may seem like a silly idea but maybe THR should olny run their LLM the 2 weekends a week the TSRS is off. This my help attract more cars that might not normally be there. I think you could say the same for the SAS LM but I believe they have to have a minimum number of races that they have to run for post season awards. The only reason why I say that is that the guys that want to race every week will and they can be competitive in both a weekly show and a touring show if they want to travel. It also works vice versa in that the guys from TSRS if they want to shakedown the car or just love to comptete they can though it would cost said driver more. I know someone posted it in another thread but on dates the TSRS raced how did it affect the car count at THR vs. a weekend off for the TSRS even if it was at a track other than THR.

[Chuckman]

That's too bad CC would be a fun track brings back Longhorn memories.

[txtom]

A lot of opinions here, but a couple of things for thought.

1. The only two parties that really know why TSRS will not be back at Kyle are Mary Ann Naumann and Brian Calloway. We have heard from Mary Ann, Maybe Brian will step forward and give us his side.

2. Touring series based off a weekly class can work, I saw it done when I lived in Ft Worth. Winged Modifieds ran on Friday in Waco, Saturday in Cowtown, and they also travelled under the banner "Texas All-Star Modifieds"

If they travelled to a Friday track, Waco gave them the night off. Same at Cowtown when they went to a Saturday track. Both tracks would schedule a special event in their place. The key here? The track promoters would WORK with each other to keep the weekly show thriving while allowing the racers to tour.

3. The argument can go on forever about TRSR cars, THR late models, touring series, etc, but the bottom line is this--You can have all the cars in the world out there, but not a single one of them will be worth anything without a place to race. If the track owners, series directors and racers don't settle their differences and find ways to tour AND support the local weekly racing, we'll either be racing around cones in a parking lot, or convoying down I-10 to the southeast.

[Bandit]

The car count will always be low for a local LM class if you run every week. Crews can not keep up running every week. If Kyle wants a better crowd for the limiteds, run every other weekend. You'll have more and better cars and crowd that is not burned out on seeing the same thing.