dancer52 Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Have my views changed...eh..not really...this sport is still dangerous. Do I take precautions? I bet I am either the only one or one of very few at edna or SOS with a fire suppression system..do i think it will work... HECK NO. But I CHOOSE to buy it so...if something does happen I can say I did all I could... I have seen first hand how Little a fire suit really helps...but...it does help...you think my 15 seconds is off? Call the manufactur....not only is the time it will work extreamly small...it will only help if you are wearing something underneath to melt too...how many do that? Look...you can bring up almost any conversation out of context and make someone look stupid...I responded to reb...cause at the time he was bringing up the same issue alot...and pretty much calling people stupid cause they had the right to choose for themselves...this issue is just like the laws forcing us to wear seatbelts in street cars....does it make us safer..probably...but in the end it is our decision (or was)...you can state your opinion and try to make a person see your point...but after a while you need to let it drop...maybe bring it up every now and then...but as I remember it was getting annoying...You guys think I am wrong? Let me know..I will ask the local Jehovas witnesses to stop by your house everyday...should I have responded? Probably not...and now I try not too... Bottom line...most racers know they should be safer...but until they see it first hand you will not convince them....but...buying all that stuff did not save ryan...if he would have had an onboard suppression system the outcome would not have changed...now..if he would NOT have bought a full containment seat or the head and neck restraint...he might have survived. So...have my views changed...no...racing is dangerous. Period. Cars are safer..and I am glad better safety equipment is being designed...and I tell people all the time they should buy better seats and restraints... My cars have full containment seats and we have a defender restraint system a fire suppression system,door pad,roof net...everyone has 2 layer firesuits...the kids (and me) have done the rollover simulator...I try to plan for the worst and hope for the best... So..in case I was not clear then (or now) my point was....you can try to convine people to be safer...but at some point you need to agree to disagree....let them make up their own mind...before you make them avoid safety like most people avoid the jehovas witnesses..... oh...and an oil fire is nothing like a fuel fire....has anyone ever tried to put out a fire with an extinguisher? you had better hope its a super small fire. education is great....but ignorance is bliss...lol (not really my opinion...but thought it was funny) AJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielsen Motorsports Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 AJ be careful these msg board do not need to start making sence nor should they be used for opinions. Number one use is to make people feel stupid and argue about pointless crap. I will remind you saturday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted July 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 I challenge either of you two to show me where I EVER called, or implied, anyone was stupid.....and I guess safety is pointless crap?....Ok....whatever AJ....I'm very glad to hear that you have upgraded your safety gear and car(s).....and the "practice" gotten from Pauls rollover simulator is priceless I've seen lots of improvements....even got Crazyhorse to buy a pair of gloves....but others still seem to take the apathetic approach..... Case in point.....At I-37 two weeks ago Chris Swenson went over.....never lost a drop of fuel.....At HOT last weekend a Pure Stock went over....fuel poured out(fortunately no fire)....and of course you had the obligatory people running around it in t-shirts and jeans....at least their was one guy in full dress-out with a fire hose waiting close by.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancer52 Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Ok...but this is my last post on this... "I challenge either of you two to show me where I EVER called, or implied, anyone was stupid" "At HOT last weekend a Pure Stock went over....fuel poured out(fortunately no fire)....and of course you had the obligatory people running around it in t-shirts and jeans....at least their was one guy in full dress-out with a fire hose waiting close by...." Your implying that the guys in t-shirts are stupid...just showing you where you do this (you asked me too) and this is just your last post. And I have stated several times safety is important....but...was trying to say you can sometimes hurt your fight by pushing to hard... at this point I will agree to disagree...I am trying to stop replying on these type topics since my views are usually "out of the box" and no matter how I come off I do respect people right to have a different opinion...AJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Reb...I know this is a very important topic for you and I also know you arent calling anyone (except maybe me ) STUPID...Im sure you mean some of their actions are stupid somewhat. AJ.....I also know that you want to be safe while driving and that you do what you feel works best for you. Now....do you guys realize how many people reading this post have stopped and thought about it? Even if its just 1 person then you two did good. You both might have saved someones life. For heavens sake PLEASE keep this going. Other people will read it and maybe THINK about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielsen Motorsports Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Good point Papa but a msg board making a positive impact just sounds fishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 All, and I mean ALL fires on racecars are started under the hood, or in the trunk. If cars are built to the safety specs, a fire has almost 0 chance of spreading to the drivers compartment before they can get out. Hmmm, I (and all 3000+ fans and participant spectators present) musta been halucenating whan Ricks car barrel rolled at the old Irwindale - and the oil sump opened up - effectively wrapping him and the entire DRIVER"S COMPARTMENT in sticky 50 weight oil which then erupted from the header into flames - in the drivers compartment (never even caused the fuel in the carb or cell to light off). My bad. Guess you never been splashed with someone else's hot water after a crash either. If the hot water can splash after a wreck - oh wait - thats right - if it WERE fuel from a ruptured cell it would harmlessly evaporate before it sprayed on ya. Again my bad. Carry on. And what did I say? I said "are started"! Do you mount your oil tank in the drivers compartment, how bout your fuel cell, battery? edited so that Im not arguing. Again my bad. I haven't had the great fortune to work on a Texas LM yet - the ones I HAVE worked on had the sump mounted to the frame rail\pass door brace in front of the RR tire - which is neither under the hood or in the trunk... And you are absolutley right - the combustable liquids ALWAYS stay right where they belong. Which apparently from your broad range of education and experience can be defined on Texas race cars as only under the hood and in the trunk - never anywhere else. And that extra hot thing called an exhaust does not exit the area now known as "under the hood" either.... and as a point - in places OTHER THAN TEXAS - I have seen a fire start twenty feet from the car when a fuel leak ran out and was found by someones welder in the next pit. But again never in Texas so I guess this great state has its own laws of physics. i will never again assume the possibilities found elsewhere, such as two cars ending up one on top of the other with the top one leaking fuel on the bottom one, exist in ya'lls fine state. Cynicism aside - making the assumption that just because there is sheet metal between you and the containment of fuel source means you are safe - is really not very smart. the fuel CAN end up unignited in the cockpit (or anywhere else once the containment is compromised) - whether from YOUR cell or the other car(s) in the same (or different) crash - and the ignition CAN come from such mundane places as the switch you use to try to fire up and drive away! I have heard (and seen stupidly proven) the argument that a cigarette is not hot enough to ignite gas and in fact the liquid gas would put the cigarette out. Thats accurate until the gas sits on a 200 degree piece of sheet metal - at which point it could spontaneously ignite, let alone with any help. Ignoring that can be dangerous even if (granted I am being cynical again) - a little blissful. But the point being - why make an argument AGAINST a plea to be safe? Why not just take your own risks and keep your mouth shut and quit trying to talk people into joining you in unnecessary risks just because you are comfortable taking them? Is it that important for misery to seek company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBSF Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Thanks AJ, I asked, you answered. And here's the deal on Ryan: His feet were caught up in the pedals, it was his legs that they couldn't free up. He did NOT have a full containment seat, he did not have a flapper, he did not have a suppression system. I have become a bit more diplomatic in my approach, or I try to be anyway, that's why I am asking the questions I am. As a safety advocate, I get all kinds of tradgedies forwarded to me, so I see and hear about most of the bad stuff that happens around here. Obviously that impacts me, and gives me the drive to continue doing all I can to prevent as much as I can. I HAVE been repetetive, I HAVE been obnoxious, I HAVE learned just what AJ pointed out: Ya can't beat people over the head with logic! So...I give up. Run what you brung, Uncle Sam will take good care of your kiddos. I swear that's what people THINK!! I've seen threads go on and on about claims, flags, wraps, results, but safety topics?!?! I believe Reb and others HAVE to keep posting, simply because the thread dies a quick death and is quickly buried by the next big show. But, I DO appreciate ALL the comments on this thread, whether I agree or not. We aren't all Pringles, and that is perfect. I can learn from all of your opinions, I would also like to see comments addressed to my questions specifically, and thank you ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Mr. Bishop, please dont think Im disrespecting you. thats not my intention, nor am I against safety. I have no need in being sarcastic.I just made my point against the way certain devices are installed. However I would like to point out, that yes I have been in a ball of flame going down the front straight in San Antonio in a super late model. Oil tank in the rear kinda car you know. Burned the car from front to rear. Only thing that caught fire in the cockpit was the edge of the shifter boot. I was lucky that my car didnt have 2 thousand drilled out pop-rivet holes in the tin work or I might of had bigger issues. I do like you comment about Texas race cars. Its humorous because you believe you know about what Ive done and seen. You might be suprised to find out how very wrong your assumption is. Like I said, I dont disagree with you about being as safe as possible. But there comes a time when you have to balance common sense with the appropriate amount of safety. Like you pointed out, it doesnt matter how many layers your suit is or the rating on your helmet if an oil tank ruptures and sends oil all over you. There is always the chance of a disaster. But every person that straps on a race car is aware that something out of the ordinary is possible. I wear my helmet , suit, shoes, and my gloves each trip on the track. Even have a fire system, but I wont have a functioning nozzle in the drivers compartment. Thats just my own decision for my own reason. I have faith in my car and do the best I can to plan for most problems. Cant protect myself from them all, but Im trying. Cory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBSF Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Good deal, Cory, thanks for gearing up. After talking with the engineer at a major fire suppression company, I learned that the Halon used now is not tha same or as dangerous as it used to be. I suppose there are arguments pro and con for having a dispersion nozzle in the cockpit, and I don't have a real stance either way. I'm just glad you opt to have a system on your car! I like foam systems too, and believe a nozzle in the cockpit is a great application. No way can a person be protected from everything!! "Stuff" has and will happen, no doubt. There are simple, low cost things we can do toward eliminating as much potential as possible. I don't think it's really a matter of whether or not something will happen, it's how we respond. An oil/fuel soaked suit CAN become a torch-period. An on-board system should put a car fire out, but probably won't do much for the torch, although a foam nozzle might knock it down some. Thanks guys, good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted July 29, 2010 Report Share Posted July 29, 2010 And Crazyhorse I did have them shorts on..... lol Bill Hamilton #5 truck MAN! i love those short shorts! i gotta give ya props very few could pull that off (me not being one, my legs are string beans, and my knees look like cantelopes) but you sir are one of the few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacecar Posted July 29, 2010 Report Share Posted July 29, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debwill Posted July 29, 2010 Report Share Posted July 29, 2010 Larry, This thread reminded me of your fire. It really scared me, and you were very lucky to walk away uninjured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted July 30, 2010 Report Share Posted July 30, 2010 No Cory, I don't take disresrect in your posts. I was merely reading this thread as a request to wear gloves followed by argument against something so element as protecting those things that feed your family. The irony of which made me feel (humorously) sarcastic. Yes I was being sarcastic but had you been in the same room with me we woulda been both laughing I guarantee! I know a guy who used to race in a tuxedo. he was sponsored by a formal wear shop. I always felt inspired by Smilin Ed. I met him when I was about 7. But In the 70's he was wearing a firesuit under a tux! Driving a convertable. Wearing gloves so IF anything was on fire upside down or otherwise crazy he would be able to use his hands without fear of burning em. Half the pack was wearing T-Shirts (some had cigarettes rolled up in the sleeves) so you know where the rules were on gloves. We had the association discussions back then. In the 80's one meeting after thirty drivers had all stated they practiced an escape Ed asked how many had they set the roll bar padding on fire first? he then said at one point in history man discovered fire - the next thing he discovered was not to touch it. How can we possibly forget that? The vote went very strong toward leatherin the hands on track. So to me its extremely hilarious that ANYONE would be attacked for suggesting and even strongly engouraging people to wear them. Its been in ALL the track and class rules I've raced since at LEAST the mid 80's. I cant think of how many times I have watched a guy pick up something that fell off the car only to suddenly scream yelp and throw it. makes me laugh cuz its so elementary to protect those mitts. I've never known it to be an option - even to the point of buying good gloves for my friends that volunteered on my cars as well. So please understand I was not intending any disrespect either. On the onboard system - thats a different story I agree with you. When on board is required the installation rules should be such that if the driver can describe the system and it's design into a fire response plan acceptable by the tech panel its legal, at least to whats not there requiring following manufacture reccomends SFI etc. nozzle placement is very subjective. In fact I bet a CO2 aimed right up the feet would be welcome in El Centro CA when the temp at green flag is 108! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGural Posted July 31, 2010 Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 Like to share an accident I was involved in my late model at Corpus years ago. Learned a couple important lessons, that may save someone's life by sharing. I was just very lucky, and so was the other guy. Was coming out of turn 4 on the inside and a car came off the wall backwards into my passenger side door. Noticed I was all wet after the hit. At first I thought it was radiator water. I had a cool air system running inside my helmet, and only realized it was fuel later, after I lifted my shield smelled it. - (This kinda blows your TX car theory, Cory. Sorry The other car stopped on the inside of the track on the front straight, with me right beside him. My car was still running and was able to drive away from his car. However I wasn't able to see his car was sitting in a huge puddle of fuel. If either of us had tried to re-fire our engines, or my car exhaust ignited the fuel, we'd both been on fire. Not only was I wet with fuel, there was fuel standing in the floor pan of my car afterwards. That's how badly the cell ruptured into my car. I was told by several drivers, to go look at the other car after the race. Seams of the cell were almost completely rusted out from the Corpus salt air. The bumper bar easily pushed straight into the cell. I still have photos of it, but don't want to cause this guy any problems here. Just want to pass on these lessons... 1) After a wreck, be absolutely certain there is not a fuel leak anywhere, before restarting your car. 2) Never assume all the cars you race with are safe...we should look for these things when walking thru the pits. Other drivers/people had seen this, and 2 people could have been badly burned or died because nothing was said. (You all living on the coast need to be especially careful to inspect cages, cells, etc. for rust) 3)Glad I had a nozzle in the driver's compartment, cause would have used my fire system that night. Had always practiced holding my breath, after pulling the pin, while getting the hell out. Everyone should practice exiting - think it would be a great track activity or fun competition to do each year at beginning of season. Hope this was helpful, Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted July 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 Im sure you mean some of their actions are stupid At least you "get it" Papa....LOL.....We're all guilty of doing stupid things, but that doesn't mean we're stupid.. ...and I'm the first to admit back in my day......single layer suit, leather boots, leather work gloves, no neck brace......and that's not even going into details on the car....although it was fairly safe even by todays standards..... I just hope/pray that NO ONE ever has to watch anything like myself, or Paul or others, had to witness to sway your opinion on safety.... Cory....have to checked into that new Fireice supressant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted July 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2010 trying to post link to safety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaChief Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 I would like to throw my 2 cents into the safety thread. I am on the Fire/Safety crew at Montgomery Motor Speedway in Alabama and I would like to think we are one of the safest tracks in our state. Saying that I do know there is always room for improvement. Me and my assistant are both fire fighters in our towns and have used the extrication tools in our respective towns numerous times in real world emergencies. We are always looking for new things to make the drivers and fans safe at the track. We have our own Fire/safety truck that carries 100gal of water/foam, 4 25lb bottles of ABC extinguishers, 4 25lbs PKP extingushers, and 2 water extinguishers. This truck also carries the Amkus extrication tools, Nascar cutters and spreaders. When the cars are on the track we are in our turnout gear with the truck running. We have ABC extingushers placed around the track and in the pits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted August 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 I applaud your efforts....Nice looking rig.....geared up and ready for action!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair49 Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Superb equipment!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted August 2, 2010 Report Share Posted August 2, 2010 nice set up ..you guys make a driver feel better ..but sure hope you will never need to use any of that .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaChief Posted August 2, 2010 Report Share Posted August 2, 2010 Like I tell all our drivers, "I just want to show up and be a fan. The less time Im on the track the better!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted August 2, 2010 Report Share Posted August 2, 2010 Like I tell all our drivers, "I just want to show up and be a fan. The less time Im on the track the better!" And not mention you get some awesome seats! Thanks for you contrib to the well being of the sport, its participants and spectators! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted August 2, 2010 Report Share Posted August 2, 2010 Cory....have to checked into that new Fireice supressant? Reb, Ive heard of it but havent done much research. I have two FireBottle systems. Since I havent had to replace one yet I havent kept up with the new stuff. Ive heard of the foam systems but I dont know much bout them either. Believe me when I say I am 110% for all the safety possible. Its unfortunate that bad things seem to always happen, but as one of the announcers said in the cup race this weekend, Its usually after we have an accident that more issues are found and attended to. Cars will always wreck, and sometimes someone gets in a special situation where they get hurt, you hate to see it happen but its usually the only way we learn to change something. Not wishing any ill fate, dont misread me, its just how it happens. Id be willing to bet lunch that Elliot Sadler is praising his HANS device after that melee. But we all knew what it took to get it mandated. And I bet that wall is changed before they return. Its all a work in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBSF Posted August 3, 2010 Report Share Posted August 3, 2010 Have fuel cell rollover/flapper valves improved? Have on-board fire systems become more cost effective? Are all tracks providing a high level of emergency response? Are drivers taking a more active role in track safety? Are there any good arguments against participating with the rollover simulator now available? Do new car designs incorporate safe and rapid exits? Do tracks actively tech safety equipment? Do people still believe a single-layer fire suit will protect them? Are fire extinguishers popping up in the pits and around haulers? Irregardless of the potential pain and suffering, do people stop to look at the economics of a great safety program? What can we do better, is what I'm asking.... Anyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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