TSRS judgements calls

[CRANK-E]

PACECAR, you make an interesting point about communicating with the officials and drivers by means of radios. Do you use radios when you compete? Just a question.

[krusty_rusty]

Having the drivers make the call is an interesting idea, driver's will admit after the race that they made a mistake and go apologize to the certain driver. BUT they damn sure won't do it during the race because they don't want to go to the back of the field.

[jp17]

I personally strongly disagree with the "everyone involved" rule. If you were to assume that every call had an offender and a victim then it would follow that every call unfairly penalizes one driver. That obviously isn't true but neither is assuming that every time there's an incident that both cars are equally at fault and should be equally penalized. There are only 4 possible scenerios in a 2 car incident. Car A or car B goes to the back, neither or both. The law of averages says that even if the calls were made at random 25% of the time the call would be correct. I can't help but believe that well meaning officials increase those odds significantly.

 

Worse yet it opens up a whole new can of worms with drivers. Having a bad night but doing well in the points? Tap the leader when he comes around to lap you and send him back to where you already are. Or how about deciding when is best to save it or stand on the gas and bring it around depending on who tapped you?

 

Put one official in every corner with his back to the infield and make sure that they understand they are there to officiate and not spectate. One official up high to oversee everything with the final say on all calls and I'll take my odds over any other system. JP

[krusty_rusty]

thats awesome and that way would be great in a perfect world. When you have volunteers they are there to enjoy the race, therefore their attention might drift a little bit, from what should be a job by professionals. Anyone out there could have a driver that they have known for a while from a certain track, well you have a decision between a & b, and you just assume that a is clean 90% of the time because you have seen him race for the last 10 years, but this time he might of given the nudge and you radio that to the official well the new guy could just get screwed. Nobody will pay to have unbiased officials and rightfully so, but with "All Involved" its just there and takes the opinions out of play.

[Mel]

Hey Nick,

You sure got your quota on postings thursday! You tryin' to reach 1000 by....July? lol

 

As for this thread, you can never make everyone happy. After all, we are racers, always searching for an edge. BTW, Mary-Ann your doing a great job with the TSRS. Keep up the good work and keep-em talking about your series here. I believe the TSRS has one of the best "car-counts" of any of the current Texas touring series. That should tell you something!

 

Tanks for the good shows,

Mel

[jp17]

Krusty: Using your logic one should trust the judgment of drivers competing for pay, points and pride over that of volunteers who give freely of their time for no reward and little recognition. In fact, your post would seem to imply that bias or even outright favoritism should be the main reason for implementing an "all involved" rule. I reject that notion.

 

No system is perfect, heck our team could be the poster child for victims of questionable calls this season but we've also benefited from some that probably should have gone against us. I trust the integrity of all TSRS officials and believe that they are there for the right reasons. I think I know Mary Ann well enough to say that if she suspected an official of making calls based on a personal agenda he or she would be replaced.

 

Expecting officials to be perfect is no more realistic than expecting me to drive a perfect race. Neither one is gonna happen. After every show racers and officials alike load up our stuff go home and contemplate how to make fewer mistakes the next time out. That's as good as it gets in my book. JP

[97car]

No one is perfect,and making official calls is not easy,at Devils Bowl in the past if you stopped to argue about your position on the track during a re-lineup,you would be put on the trailer,did not have time in the show for this.Maryanne is doing a good job with this series,all should be thankful for this,you could be like a class real similiar to this in north Texas,called Hot stocks,they are scrambling to find places to run.

[JustaFan]

You can always count on Jp to come through with a well thought out explanation. Thanks JP for saying what I was trying to say. I could not agree more. We are waiting for your reply Nick.

[NickHolt]

I think both sides of this discussion have made excelent points. There are positives and negatives to both.

 

I just appreciate us having a place where we can all get together to discuss issues. Thanks Jason!

 

Nick Holt

[dalefan]

Well, I have been watching this web page for awhile now and this thread since it started.

I have not wanted to post anything, but after thinking about it a while I decided to go ahead and put my quarter’s worth on here.

 

I have followed TSRS since it started and have been to several of their races. I tend to agree with some of what is being said on here about that series.

 

I would like to add some food for thought.

 

As for TSRS being a new series that is true. But, all the people that are running the show have worked for tracks or been around racing for many years or as Mary Ann say's all her life. Sounds like to me she should be a pro at the point in her life. So, my question to you is what could be causing all these mistakes that they are making?

 

As for the remarks about them being sometime laughable, confused and non-coherent on the radio. (I too like many others have a scanner to hear the chatter.) I could not agree more with the above comments.

 

Mary Ann posted on here what I took as a very defensive post. How can you come on here and complain about others comments about your series when I have seen you do the same thing on other threads. (I believe it was after your Friday night race at Thunder Hill last month.) (Questioning Thunder Hills Rules on track records) How is what you did any different than what the others are doing on here? Questioning things.

 

As for your words about time restraints---Aren’t you here to put on a race and not a fashion show with the crews on the front straight in there mandatory matching shirts.

And then what about having all your officials standing on the front straightaway with the cars going by on each side of them. These are things that could be cut out of the show due to time and danger.

No one ever would have dreamed that their track photographer would be hit by a car that night, what would you do if that were one of your people on the front stretch that got hit? I’m sure you are just wanting your series to look good and all, but please, this is not Nascar. How much extra money did the teams have to unnecessarily spend to match?

They probably could have bought a tire with the money they spent on those matching shirts.

 

As for your series—It’s a pretty great series with the car count and all, but think about my question here please. Who is benefiting from this series in the long run? All of these racers that are in your series (for the most part) had a track to run at each week last year.

How does your series help out the local tracks that you took them away from? Why would you create a traveling series for cars that already had a place run each week at local tracks? This I do not understand. Yes, we have Romco that made a touring series, but that was only after TIDA disbanded. Yes, we have Asphalt Modifieds. But, again, I think they were created because they had no where to race at. And I believe Mr. Upchurch created the Pro Sedan series years ago because they had no where to race either. None of these three classes where stolen from local tracks. They simply had no where to race. So someone came along and created a touring series for them because they had no home so to speak So, that is the only reason I asked this question.

 

Now, as for your comments about negative comments on this web page—Well, we all have a right to speak our minds on here—Thanks to Nick and Jason as long as we do it in an orderly fashion. Not bashing and being all mean about it. I hope that this is not taken that way. Because it is not meant to be mean. I am just asking some questions that no one has bothered to ask before and providing some of my own thoughts.

 

Thanks for listening to my quarter’s worth.

 

Dale Fan for Life

[racerjim2]

Hey Dale fan for life,the asphalt modified sries was started as local series a few years ago at San Antonio Speedway but was canceled due to low car count as was the SAS street stock class.Those cars have been incorperated into the TSRS.The ROMCO super late model series was once the premere class of race cars at SAS,Longhorn Speedway in Austin,CC Speedway, and Meyers Speedway in Houston before the car counts at these tracks droped to the point of not putting on a show.Thats when a group of drivers contacted Neal Upchurch and he combined it with the pro sedans and started touring.Mary Ann did not steal any drivers from any track she has helped that type of racing survive.If drivers dont show at a track to race it probably because they are going to race where the money is better .Kyle limited late models pays $500.00 to win on a regular saturday program and TSRS pays $1000.00 to win on the nights they race if Kyle matched the TSRS purse they probably would get more cars on the nights the run their races.

[Kathy]

Sorry Racerjim2, but I have to pop in on this thread now.

 

Because I have posted this question and comment before, but it seems to need asking again. I think.

 

Our car count has been pretty good over the past few years at THR. So, why is it so low this year?

 

Like Mary Ann has said before on here the rules are the same so they can race both classes. Why are they not. Alot of those drivers raced almost every weekend last year for $500.00 to win. I think our average each week was 16 to 18. To me that is a pretty nice show. Because I can remember SA not being that good each week.

 

As for the Super Late Model series--I worked at Longhorn for 9 years. I know all about that class. The TIDA was already a touring series then, they did not take any cars away from our local class when they came Longhorn. I also worked for TIDA for the last 3 years they ran. I didn't see them taking any cars away from Longhorns local class then either. Oh maybe one or two might try and run with them that night---but they could not keep up.

 

Lets see now if I have this right.

TSRS 1000.00 to win. Race about once a month. If you win you get 1000.00

THR 500.00 to win. Race every Saturday If you win 4 times that is 2000.00

 

 

Tell me again why Brian should raise his purse.

 

[mitchellracer]

Hey everyone, now I must reply regarding the "matching shirts" and wasting money on them. My business has personally supplied some of the race shirts used in TSRS for the following reasons:

 

1. I have PAID sponsorship money to the series (like Hoosier, etc)

2. Race shirts help the drivers and teams become more marketable to potential and existing sponsors (ie - monogrammed logos on shirts much like the logos on the cars)

3. Race shirts help the drivers and teams become more marketable to the fans (kids and adults wanting to dress like their favorite team etc)

4. Profits from these sales are shared with the series and drivers points fund

5. Drivers receive discounts on purchases

6. I make PENNIES on each dollar to keep this affordable to the drivers and series because I BELIEVE in this series as well as racing in Texas

7. I donated many items for raffles, entertainment during yellows (superfan dancers, giveaways) ***btw the last puppet raffle, the child chose a puppet dressed like his favorite driver

 

So please open your eyes, ears and hearts to a great way to benefit all.

 

Christy

aka Mitchellracer

[mitchellracer]

Kathy,

 

I have personally attended MOST of the THR races since June of 97. I have purchased a program each night I attended (approx 85% of the races). I have also ran a stat sheet on ALL the Late Models for the last 3 years. So I would like to give you a tidbit of my results:

 

More than 75% of the previous REGISTERED drivers are not running with TSRS or THR (I will supply the list)

At no time did I see an AVERAGE of 16 - 18 cars a night. (average = amount of cars for the late models divided

Alot of the drivers moved on to other opportunities (ROMCO, Trucks, etc)

Alot of drivers cannot afford to race anymore

 

Why must there always be one entity to blame??? Why can't we all work together to keep racing together instead of constantly taking sides?? Can't we talk to the racers that are not racing at THR and find out a consensus of why they choose not to race weekly?? Keep options open, life is ever changing.

 

Thanks

Christy

[ChuckLicata]

Dale Fan: "As for TSRS being a new series that is true. But, all the people that are running the show have worked for tracks or been around racing for many years or as Mary Ann say's all her life. Sounds like to me she should be a pro at the point in her life. So, my question to you is what could be causing all these mistakes that they are making?"

 

Chuck: Dale Fan, you obviously have NEVER run a series...Mary Ann has some very reputable and experienced officials in TSRS. But, you know what? Unless you RUN THE ACTUAL SERIES, all the experience in the world can't get you ready for what you're going to experience in a "real time" situation.

 

Dale Fan: "As for the remarks about them being sometime laughable, confused and non-coherent on the radio. (I too like many others have a scanner to hear the chatter.) I could not agree more with the above comments."

 

Chuck: I hear a lot of other series/tracks with the same, laughable radio chatter. Yet, I have my own medium--my radio show--to express the same thing you do here. I choose not to do that, because I know that people, while they may say "laughable things," are still working very hard to get a job done. Why you have to take extreme measures to point this out, I can only conclude you're jaded in your comments towards TSRS.

 

Dale Fan: "Aren’t you here to put on a race and not a fashion show with the crews on the front straight in there mandatory matching shirts.

And then what about having all your officials standing on the front straightaway with the cars going by on each side of them. These are things that could be cut out of the show due to time and danger.

No one ever would have dreamed that their track photographer would be hit by a car that night, what would you do if that were one of your people on the front stretch that got hit? I’m sure you are just wanting your series to look good and all, but please, this is not Nascar."

 

Chuck: Hey Dale Fan, in case you missed the news recently--NASCAR just signed a 10-year, 700-million dollar contract with NEXTEL Communications. Now, who WOULDN'T want to be NASCAR, with that kind of money?? AS for the race teams and their "team uniforms," don't you think that one of the reasons Nextel committed so much money towards NASCAR (and the reason NASCAR is now on FOX and NBC) is because they LOOK GOOD! I realize a lot of local racing fans are into the "just go out and put on a show," and that's fine! However, without offending any of those valued local race fans, that's the short-term way to look at things. The long-term way is to have everyone--from the officials to the drivers to their crew--look good, and ALL of the TSRS teams, with the huge help of Christy Ganem, have come to understand that--that's why they have their teams in uniforms. I promise you, Nextel wouldn't spend 7-hundred dollars--let alone 700-MILLION dollars--if NASCAR didn't continuously work hard to improve its TOTAL show, from the grandstands to the officials to the pits. Now, can TSRS ever be as big and efficient as NASCAR? Probably not. However, NASCAR has set "the model" for which all racing series should strive to be like--and we're doing what ROMCO, TAMS and all the others are doing, we're just doing it in our own way.  

 

There's my 25 cents worth. Have a great day, and please support your local racers!

Hey Dale Fan,

Yes, you're opinion is your opinion and it is welcome on this web site, hosted by Nick and Jason...

However, you are too narrow-minded when it comes to TSRS. You obviously have a problem with it, because even when you try to be "politically correct," you rip the series.

Above are some examples and my opinions, "just my opinions," about your comments.

[krusty_rusty]

I think the late model count at THR has been affected by TSRS. Drivers don't necessarily want to run out there every week, and risk something getting torn up. The TSRS pays more money to win, and also for the points race, so if you blow something up the weekend before a TSRS race and can't get on the track the next weekend your risking a whole lot in the long run.

[NickHolt]

Despite the claims of people with a vested interest in TSRS to the contrary, the popular orgainization has impacted the car count at THR. However, it is only one of MANY reasons why the car counts and spectator counts at weekly asphalt tracks are down in Texas.

 

Some of those reasons have been discussed in detail here and include: 1) the economy; 2) lack of promotion / advertising; 3) the length of the shows at some tracks 4) the high cost of admission 5) the managment practices at some tracks 5) rules that are not compatible between the various tracks; 6) the overlap between the rules of some touring series and weekly classes; 7) the high cost of recurring expenses such as lubricants, fuel and tires 8) the lack of person to person promotion by the various teams and their crews towards the general public. 9) the lack of responsiveness of some track owners / promoters and some series directors towards the concerns of the race fan and competitors; 10) the lack of an orgainzation to bring together the various tracks and sactioning bodies for regular meetings where issues and concerns common to all may be addresses.

 

While this certainly is NOT a complete list, it does reflect many of the discussions seen here over the past year.

 

Nick Holt

[racerjim2]

Kathy, you were e-mailing me the kyle finishing positions last year and sometimes there were 8 to 9 cars and other times there were 15+ cars. I have not seen the numbers this year but from what I am hearing everyones car count is down for weekly racing.The touring series numbers are up beause they pay more and it is not such a gring on the crews and car owners , physicaly of financaly. I currently race @SAS and have raced at THR a couple of times. I applaude Brian and his Staff of officals, what you guys do is thankless and all you guys get is griping ,sorry if you felt I was griping but racing is a business like any other and if you can make more for the same or less work a guy going to to that.I know I cant pay my racing bill's on what I win at SAS and they pay slightly better than THR. All I'm saying is if you cant cover the cost of tires, fuel, pit passes, drinks, oil changes on a weekly bassis and the schedule calls for 20 races and you have the opertinuity to race and spend about the same money and win a little more and only have 12 races on the schedule your not gonig to loose as much money and still feel like your competative.Most businesses know the cost of their product because they have to buy it and in racing the track owners have someone else that pay for their product so they dont know or in some cases care what it cost(the car owners)to supply the product.You see teams cut back and go away even on the winston cup level because the can not afford to race week in and week out.

As far as TIDA when I started Racing in 1985 John Kelly, Rick Rapp, and Greg Davidson were weekly regulars in the Late Model division at SAS with the same type of car they are running today in ROMCO.the car count droped to about 6-8 cars and the class was cancelled.that was when the TIDA late model division was born(about 1987 or 1988).now after all this I guess the bottom line is the ballance between cost and benifit is off, and untill the economy gets better or the benifits weigh closer to the costs, racing will stay the way it has been for last couple of years.

[racerjim2]

Oh ,one last thing. The racetrack has to sell on three fronts .First, they have to sell their track to the racer and there has to be value for a racer to race at there track ie: points fund, schedule,prise money,insurance,ect. Second, the track has to sell sponsors that people are going to come to watch the races so that the sponsor get exposure for their business and so the driver can get sponsors.Thirdly, the track has to sell the general public to convince them that this is a professional and ceadable deal. I still get people that don't know that there is a racetrack in San Antonio and when they find out there is one they want to know if the drivers fight a lot.PEOPLE WANT ENTERAINMET.they don't want to sit in the stands and watch a bunch of cars sitting in the infield.None of these things are easy ,if it were there would be a lot of people doing it. Racing is the focus and the show is what surounds it.

[Kathy]

Christy,

 

First of all let me tell you that THR did not open until March of 1998.

 

I have worked there since day one and have missed one night of racing.

 

I have been doing the points, averages, results etc. now for the last 4 years.

 

Here are my Official stats from last year 2002.

 

Date----Car Count

3-30----17

4-13----20

4-20----13

4-27----22

5-4-----14

5-11----19

5-18----14

5-25----16

6-8-----15

6-15----16

6-22----17

7-27----22

8-3-----15

8-10----9

8-17----16

8-24----11

8-31----14

9-14----11

9-21----13

 

Now, if you add all those lovely numbers together you get a grand total of 294. If you divide that by 19 races. You get an average of 15.47. So, yes, I was little off on my figure.

 

 

Since you brought up the THR vs TSRS thing, here is a little more information for you.

 

Of the 35 drivers we had registered at THR last year, 22 of them are now registered and running pretty regularly with TSRS.

[jp17]

Kathy,

 

I'd be interested in your take on why few if any drivers from other THR weekly classes move up to the Thunderhill Late Model class? JP

[Kathy]

Hey Racerjim2,

 

I do understand that it is costly to race. I raced myself once a month at Longhorn years ago. And my dad raced also there for a while. So, I really do know how expensive it is.

 

I guess I am just dumb sometimes, but to race the touring series you have to pay a registration fee at each race. Right? Isn't it like $125.00 with TSRS? I could be wrong here. But, then when you get to the tracks you have to pay to get in the track also. Just kind of seems like you are paying twice here.

 

If you where a registered driver at THR-You would pay $40.00 once to register for that class for the year and then $20.00 to race each week. 40+ 20 4 times is still less than a touring series for one race. I know of course there are other expences not listed here. But, I guess I am just a die hard race fan and I loved racing so much when I did get to race and wanted to do it every week.

 

As for the nice big purse in TSRS--you do realize that the tracks are at least paying part of it. Right? Thus the reason behind THR not raising there own weekly purses. We have to pay that each week. Plus any touring series.So in the long run we are paying bigger purses than TSRS on a weekly basis.

 

Please don't think I am being ugly towards TSRS. I recommended my own ex-sister-in-law(who I still claim) for the job (who by the way was my assistant at THR, Longhorn & TIDA)(but only after she decided not to work this year) as there head scorer and I have helped her any and every way that she needed until she felt comfortable doing things on her own. I help score the TSRS cars when they do race at THR on Saturday nights.Not because I have to, but because she is my sister and I love her and I want to help her any way I can.

 

And you are so right about the economy. I wish it would hurry up and get better. I bet we all be alot happier then.

 

Good night all.

 

I have lots of work to do so I can get our results from tonight out.

 

[ChuckLicata]

Nick,

Your post is very good and very right-on. Enough said.

 

Plus, one thing I think everyone is over-looking about TSRS is the fact that the Drivers' Points Fund BEGAN the season at $10,000. Before we even started the season, we had that much money in the points' fund. That was obviously an attraction for drivers to come race with TSRS.

[Kathy]

Hey Jeff,

 

I wanted to sleep on that question you posed last night. And get my work done first.

 

I do not know the truth to the question, but here are just some of my thoughts on it.

 

Last year Shawn Lehman and David Snokhous moved up to the Late Model class.

I believe Robert Stewart moved up this year from the street stock he used to run a couple of years back. Please remember I have been watching some of these drivers since 1985. Bubba Naumann moved up through the years. I can remember him being about 14 at Longhorn and chasing them all down for wins back then. Bryan Meredith is trying his hand in the trucks this year and had a pretty nice run last night. His uncle Donnie has moved on up through the classes through the years.I believe Keith Sandefur used to run a street stock and has moved up. He was in a street stock the night he tricked eveyone and raced with the ladies and pulled off on the last lap. Sorry Keith (Virginia) I had to throw that in. About half of our Street Stock drivers are fairly new. By this I mean just the last few years or not raced on a regular basis for years and maybe they feel they are not ready to move up. Then you have that other half that have been in Street Stock for years and I would consider them the really experienced drivers, that have yet to win a championship and just feel like maybe they want to chase that dream down before they move up.

Don Banker & Robert Walton are sharing there time between Modifieds & Trucks & Street Stock.Same with Todd McLemore-Trucks, LM & TSRS.

 

And of course the money plays a big issue here also. Some just can not afford to move up to the Late Model class.They may think hey, I have a perfectly good Street Stock to race-why move up. There are just so many choices of racing out there to choose from. Some are lucky enough not to have to choose just one. And we live in the Good-Ol USA and get many choices and opportunities here.

 

Who really knows the answer other than the driver. This as you asked for is just my take on it.

 

[Truck99]

Kathy,

 

Very well put. I think many of your speculated reasons are dead on. Many people may wonder when and if we may move up or if we don't, they may wonder why not. For us, the reasons are multiple, but you hit on several of them. We run competitively each week, but we are still chasing that championship. I've also seen friends move up in class only to have great difficulty being competitive when they were very competitive in streets. We currenlty race at the very edge of our budgetary constraints, and I recognize the fact that we would move out of our monetary abilities if we were to move up to late models, trucks, modifieds, or anything else really. One last thing - if you look at the the 4 regular THR classes this year, the street stock class is the most competitive class, hands down. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but if you look at the hobby stock and late model classes, the hobbies have 2 drivers and the late models have 1 driver who are the weekly favories to win. In streets, it's a toss-up every Saturday night. To me, that's another reason to stay put.

 

cs