TSRS judgements calls

[NickHolt]

SS99,

 

You have stated the arguments from a competitor's point of view for using race officials' judgement very well. I applaud your well-thought-out response and the spirit in which it was written.

 

However, I was a race director for a few years at SAS and these days help Neil call the TPS races. I can assure you that the "all involved" rule removes a good deal, if not most, of the grey areas that officials must face when trying to assign fault to most on-track racing incidents. For instance, I found it impossible to distinguish between a subtle brake check from the leading car and a "take out" from the car behind. The only people who actually knew who was at fault were the two drivers invovled. I had no way of telling what actually happened out there. And how about those deals where Driver A either came down on Driver B or Driver B came up on Driver A. Even with unlimited TV replays, NASCAR fans argue for months about which way it happened. From my point of view it always comes down to asking an official to make a call that is impossible to make when the "fault" has to be assigned to these types of racing incidents. Besides that, even when it does seem apparent who took who out, sooner or later the calls even out over time.

 

One thing I really noticed about the "all involved" rule was that there were very few "brake check" type spins since both cars get sent to the back, thus taking away the incentive to do the brake check in the first place.

 

Again, just my .02 cents

 

Nick Holt

[lloyd#5]

i agree with nick 100% with the all involved rule. i have raced with it for a couple of years now at sas and i found that sometimes you get the raw end of the deal but most of the time you get a fair shake. i like taking all judgement out of the officials side and putting it in a simple rule that all the drivers understand and respect. some of the drivers in tsrs do no respect each other because they feel that they can get the judgement call in their favor so then they block and take out other cars but if the all involved rule was enforced it makes drivers respect each other on the track. and if tsrs decides they want to make judgement calls they should set a list of rules of why people go to the back and why the stay where they're at so there will be no more confusion between drivers and officials. we need a clearly defined set of rules and regs. for what happens when a certain action takes place to relieve some of the confusion.

thank you for listening to my rambling but just my .02

LLOYD ALEXANDER

[Jason]

With the judgement calls I think this may be opening up a can of worms but why not just make it so there is no calls what so ever. That way if someone has a problem they can address it with the driver. Kind of like ASA and NASCAR. Call them to the little red truck

[NickHolt]

Jason,

 

Just let 'em run wherever they feel like they belong, eh? Jason, I'm glad you don't run a series !!!!!!! LOL

 

Nick Holt

[Jason]

ASA is doing alright

lol

but they do tear up alot of equip....

[racergirl12]

SS99

 

I agree that some judgement calls will have to be made, that is everywhere you go. Nobody on this board is complaining about the fact that judges have to judge. The issue here is that their is no exact set of black and white rules. Out of all the cars at the track, and even the fans; alot of people are left scratching their heads and wondering why certain calls are made. I dont think anyone knows exaclty for sure, without a doubt as to what the rules are. I know that everyone i have talked to doesnt. Do we go by the "all involved", obviously not, what exaclty are tsrs rules as far as penalties go? Everybody i've talked to says that you cannot work on the car during red, but the racergirl official above states that we can without a penalty. Things need to be clarified and i think alot of people would understand why things are being done the way they are. I think everybody would like a paper copy of some set of rules so we wont be complaining or frustrated by calls. Like i said before, judgement calls will always have to be made. The reason why people are getting angered is because there can be a set of wrecks at the track and neither of the drivers that brought out the yellow could be at fault but on driver goes to the rear and gets to start all over (that is if he doesnt damage the car), and the other driver gets to go back to his position. This leaves a huge gap between the drivers who have to go to the rear versus the ones who get their spots back for the same reason. I think everybody would agree that tsrs is a great series with a bunch of great and sincere people who run this series. There are just things that need to be clarified so everybody will know ahead of time what to expect when they get on that track every race night. I think it is hard to say that (like a person stated above), that if out of 20 cars their are 6 that are driving closey, all eyes will be on those 6 cars. In racing i dont think that is good enough. What happens to the rest of the cars?? When they take each other out, who will determine what happens to those drivers, will the officials just guess as to what happened. I've heard over the headset multiple times, "i didnt see what exaclty happened", how do you make a call if you dont know or didnt see what happened. It is not the drivers fault who you "saw" and didnt "see", but yet some go to the rear and some stay where they are. Also, it was stated above that you will get your position back if you cause the yellow because of track conditions. So theres 25 cars on the track, the first 10 cars get through the oil on the track just fine and one car out of the 25 spins out and he gets his spot back but the others made it through alright. I'm sure those other 24 drivers wouldnt like that that one driver got his position back because he didnt get the oil but everyone else did. We'll, i guess i've said enough, does anybody agree, disagree??

Thank you for your time

 

[edited by Nick Holt, 6/24/03, to change from ALL UPPER CASE post. No content was altered.

[racegirl]

To again address the red flag issue, Maryann confirmed that you ARE ALLOWED to work on your car under the red flag in the pits, the penatly is you go to the rear when you return to the track. We have ALWAYS allowed our drivers to work on their cars under the red flag, but with the penatly that they will go to the rear.

As far as judgement calls go, we are human, we do not see everything. We do the best we can, and if we feel it was a racing incident or cause by track conditions the driver is returned to their position. As with the example of 20 cars getting through oil and one not and spinning and getting his position back, if that driver did not lay the oil on the track, how is it far to put them to the back, maybe they couldn't avoid the oil. If it was your driver that got spun do to oil on the track you would want their position given back. Either way we can not please everyone. Would you like us to put the whole field to the rear in the case that on a start someone checks up to avoid hitting the car in front of them, and then the person behind them bumps them. calls are made that are not going to please everyone. It happens in every series, whether it be ROMCO, THR, or TSRS. So, we will continue to work out the kinks, we will continue to do our very best, and hope that we can all move on to our next race. Have a good week everyone, and I will see you all in Houston!!

 

TSRS PIT STEWARD

amanda

[NickHolt]

racergirl12,

 

Please do not post using ALL CAPS. It is very difficult to read when the post is ALL CAPS.

 

I changed your post to "sentence case" using MS Word.

 

Nick Holt

[krusty_rusty]

Thats the thing about the TSRS about the officials as well. I understand that most of them are there on their own time which is great money wise for the series and getting it off the ground, BUT their communication over the radio to each other at sometimes is laughable, they seem confused and non-coherent on decisions that they're going to make and that affects every racer involved. The best example I can think of when it comes to that is from 2 races ago when it came to the 11 car getting his spot in front of the 17, when 17 already had the pass made and the 11 spun in the high "groove". The flagman said thats what the caution was for, but then by some influence by another official he was told no that the 99 car was the caution so the 11 could get his spot back. I didn't know that officials could tell the flagman when the caution actually came out even though he was the one making the decision.

[Dirt track girl 1]

All I have to say is that TSRS is a fairly new series and for all that think they are the only series that make bad calls are mistaken. Every series I have ever watched has had grow from mistakes and bad judgement. There isn't a series today from the amatuer to the professional that doesn't at one time or another have bad calls. Give this series a chance to grow and iron out some wrinkles in their series before judging them to harshly. I didn't agree with some calls made that night at Kyle but at the same time I know that in any series and any race not everyone is going to agree that all calls are fair. There will always be contradiction with calls because not every fan has the same favorite driver. So if a fan doesn't agree with a call on their favorite driver than they will be even more adamant that it was an unfair call vs. someone they are not a fan of. Make sense?

[krusty_rusty]

I agree that TSRS is a new series, thats not a question and their will obviously be some mistakes being made. Like nick thats why i disagreed with Mary Ann's comment that this forum is bad for racing, if anything it is better for the series. Thats the reason people are throwing around some ideas for consideration of how the series can improve, like the "All Involved" rule.

[JustaFan]

I am not a big fan of the "All involved" rule. What would the call be in the following scenarios?

1) A heated battle is taking place between 3 cars. The second car in line hits the first car going into the corner. Car number 1 is spun, cars 2 & 3 make it by. Is car # 1 sent to the back? He was the only one to spin but it was caused by car #2. If you send them both back, you have made a judgement call. If you only send the car that spun to the back you are encouraging car # 2 to bump his way to the front. If drivers 2- 20 see that happening you can expect to see more of the same.

2) Cars 1 & 2 come out of turn four and get side by side past the flagman. Car # 1 has the inside line going into turn 1. Car # 2 comes down on car # 1 forcing him to spin. Again, does car # 1 go to the back for spinning or does both of them get sent to the rear?

The problem with "everybody involved" is that 100% of the time, a driver that may only be guilty of being at the wrong place at the wrong time is punished. Let's use that thinking in a everyday situation. A drunk hits you on the street and totals your car. Would it be "fair" if both of you get a ticket for being in an accident? I know I would have a problem with it.

You have to have faith that the person assessing the incident has the skills, training and experience to get it right and only the guilty party is punished. I personally have faith in the TSRS officials and staff to make the right call. Will there be mistakes? Sure will. Will there be people that complain long and loud because they think they got a raw deal or that somebody else is getting a better deal? You betcha. Look folks, this happens in every sport including our own beloved NASCAR. You just gotta have FAITH. I would like to hear some other opinions on this. Please don't rant, just tell me what you think.

[NickHolt]

JustaFan,

 

In the first place, nobody is claiming the “all involved” rule is fair. 1) It’s just easier to enforce than the “judgment” rule and, 2) All drivers know what the rule is going into the race and what to expect.

 

You asked how the two situations would be called under the “all involved” rule. This is how officials using the “all involved” rule would have e called it.

 

Situation One: The two cars that were involved would have been sent to the back – both the car was hit and the car that did the hitting. If any other cars plowed into the wreck they would have been sent to the back too. All the trailing cars who avoided making contact in the wreck, including any who spun to avoid the wreck and did not make contact, would NOT be sent to the back.

 

Situation Two:

 

If the two cars made contact, both would be sent to the rear. If there were no contact made, only the car that spun would be sent to the rear.

 

The rule is simple. If you are involved in an incident that causes a yellow or red flag, you go to the back.

 

Here’s a scenario you didn’t bring up but one that happens sometimes. Driver A blows a motor and the yellow flag is flown because of the oil on the track. Then Driver B spins in the oil. The spin did not cause the yellow. The call that there was oil on the track brings out the yellow. Driver B gets his position back. Or the reverse can be true. Driver A blows a motor but no yellow is called because of the oil since nobody knew there was oil on the track. Driver B spins and a yellow is called for the spin. Driver B goes to the back since it was the spin that brought out the yellow, not the oil.

 

Again, I’m not claiming that the “all involved” rule is fair. Only God could correctly judge each and every racing incident fairly. It really isn’t any fairer than any other rule that you could come up with to align cars after an on-track incident. It is just easier to enforce and the drivers know in advance what the ruling will be.

 

Nick Holt

[Truck99]

Nick is absolutely correct that the all involved rule is easier on the officials. I overheard one racer make the comment last year that THR could run without officials since judgement calls were not being made. Although I don't come anywhere close to agreeing with that, it does illustrate Nick's point.

 

The problem with that is that I think it's unfair to the racers to adopt a system just because it's easier on the officials. By virtue of the fact that our points average is one of the highest, we start at the back of the pack each week. That means that we've got to pass in the neighborhood of 18-22 cars in our class if we expect to pick up a win. Believe it or not, that can be done on a one groove track. Sorry, couldn't resist that plug.

Anyway, making a run to the front through traffic like that is difficult enough without having to worry about getting sent to the back every time you're too close to a guy who spins. Basically, the fast cars are the ones at the greatest risk because they have the most ground to gain and the most cars to pass. The more cars you try to pass, the greater the chances you will be near a car when it goes around. Using the all invovled rule, the officials still have to make a judgement call as to whether or not contact was involved. From what I saw last year, making that call is often not any easier than deciding who was at fault.

 

So again, I say let's allow the officials to make judgement calls and try to accept them if they don't go our way.

 

cs

[mitchellracer]

WOW

 

this thread has had some very interesting reading material. Thanks for all the imput.

 

It just goes to show that NO ONE totally agrees with each other, just human nature. Be that you are a fan, driver, official or whatever.

 

Keep up the great comments

 

Christy

[NickHolt]

CS99,

 

Again, you point of view is valid and well expressed.

 

However, a crucial point that you fail to address is the second point... Namely that the drivers, and everyone else, know what to expect with the "all involved" rule.

 

With the "judgement" calls, Driver A has one point of view as to what happened and who is at fault while Driver B, involved in the same incident, has an entirely different view of what happened and who is at fault. In the meantime, a whole bunch of well-meaning officials are trying desperately to make the "right" call based on who's at fault, usually with conflicting opinions. Often the end result is controversy and bitterness as can be seen in more than one thread about "unfair calls" here on TSZ.

 

With the "all involved" rule, if someone was involved in bringing out the yellow (or red) they go to the back. End of dicussion. Everybody knows the rule going in. No ambiguity. No jumping on the radio telling your spotter to grab a race official to convince him/her that it wasn't your fault.

 

I can't emphasize enough that the "all involved" rule is no where near perfect either. As CS99 points out, anyone passing a lot of cars is at greater risk. But isn't he/she at greater risk anyway under either rule?

 

Finally, if what we are trying to gain here is consistency in the calls and giving the drivers (officials, fans, crews, track announcers, etc.) a rule that is easy to understand and enforce, then it is far superior to any other rule.

 

Let's see... this is my third .02 cents post, so my posts are now worth .06 cents.. lol

 

Nick Holt

[krusty_rusty]

thank you nick, all were asking is for stuff to be on the straight and narrow and consistent. The less of someone's opinion that is in someones decision the better.

[JustaFan]

Now see there, We really can all get along. One more time up on the ole soap box and I will leave this subject alone. Nick, what I hear you saying is that the All Involved Rule may not be right but it is the easiest. I have a problem with taking that route in our sport. My Momma used to tell me that doing the right thing would not always be easy but doing the right thing is what we are supposed to do. I wish I had a dollar for every time that little pearl of wisdom rang true in my life. There has to be some middle ground between the judgement calls and all involved. Just imagine what the reaction will be if there is a blatant foul and you must send an obviously innocent driver to the back. SS99 has a great point about the fastest cars being at the greatest risk. How many times do you think a good driver will accept being sent to the back over something that was not his fault? Eventually you will run off allot of drivers to a series that is not afraid to make the tough calls. Thanks to everybody (even you Krusty) for the oppurtunity to discuss this subject in a reasonable manner.

[NewRacer]

My 2 Cents.

Everyone so far has made some great points.

We all Live with Rules on a daily basis, and one thing that I beleive is when a rule is not Black or white you have problems.

When you interject opinion to the the following of a rule you have a cetain persons point of view on how to deal with it.

There fore I have always been a fan of Racing back to the line under caution(can not pass under caution), and who ever is involved in bringing out the yellow goes to the rear.

 

As for the TSRS series I am a Huge fan , and am looking forward to bring our car back out in Houston.

Every small company has growing pains. TSRS is a 1st year start up company , and is growning. I am sure Mary Anne & the gang will be get the bugs worked out. Keep the faith.

Nick Holt- I do not post here , but I have been reading The posts here for the last 4 months almost daily.

I feel you are fair to everyone who post here , and I for one , am glad to have this forum.

 

Race on.

Victory Lane

[Pacecar]

I can live with judgement decisions that are made based upon what the corner worker official actually observes.

 

If none of the officials don't actually observe the incident, then I can live with the observation given by another driver involved or near the incident. Most racers have designated spotters and are linked to the frequency of the officials. It doesn't hurt to radio driver #14 who spun out and ask if driver #21 hit him causing the spinout. If #14 says that #21 was the cause, then driver #21 can live with the judgement. What I can't tolerate is the officials making a decision against a driver without any of them having observed the whole incident or having input from another driver. What's worse is when the officials don't heed a crewchief's plea to even ask the other driver.

 

I know that the "official" answer to this is that all this back-and-forth communication will cause the show to be delayed. In my opinion, the delay would be minimal and worthwhile to fair play. It might even speed up the show while the officials ponder to try to construct what they think may have happened based upon previous laps of close racing.

 

That's one competitor's viewpoint. I'm for the officials making judgement calls.

[NickHolt]

Pacecar,

 

Surely you can see the problems with allowing the drivers in the cars to make the judgement calls.

 

Nick Holt

[tqj3]

NewRacer-

I'm confused. If you can't pass under the yellow, what's the point of "racing back to the line?" In fact, if you can't pass, how can you "race back to the line?"

Shut it down and revert back to the last lap for scoring. If necessary, it will allow the safety crews to get to a driver faster.

[SVCMNGR1]

My son works @ McDonalds on Layte rd in San Antonio. Let's say your family comes in for a heart attack special during rush hour. My son drops a couple of burgers on the floor. You want him to do the right thing or the easy thing?

[NickHolt]

SVCMNGR1,

 

This discussion is not about one way being sanitary and the other way being disgusting. It is about finding a better way to call races than insisting that well-meaning race officials decide fault when it is basically impossible to correctly determine fault in most racing incidents. Just because the "all involved"rule is easier to enforce, does not make it less "right" than trying to decide who is at fault when it is usually difficult, if not impossible, to determine who is at fault. If officials had a built in "fault detector" the "officials' judgement" rule would work just fine. But they don't.

 

At work we're all the time told to work smarter, not harder. Find the better way. We even have a suggestion program that hopes to find ways to improve the services we provide. Just because we find a better or easier way to get things done, doesn't mean it's somehow worse than the old way.

 

Nick Holt

[bl18]

keep up the good forum's