Potential new cheap RWD V6/V8 Class Gauging Interest

[MikePeters95]

Hey everyone, I think we can all agree there is a need for an accessible, rear wheel drive, entry level / casual racer class that doesn't allow scope creep or builds to get out of hand in any way. I wanted to start posting this in the public eye for feedback. I'm sure some of you have seen this circulating behind the scenes and some the tracks and promotors are aware and have been giving feedback as well.

Do you think this would bridge the gap between people that are not going to the track at all as a fan or competitor, and their ability to find racing relatable and get involved? If you don't want to click on it, fine, the summary is any RWD 6 cyl or 8 cyl, naturally aspirated, 3400#, ZERO Modifications other than safety and stripping things out, and the tire rule is as follows: "2. Wheels and tires must be OEM. No aftermarket aluminum that are not OEM style. Steel police style or race style wheels are permitted, no low offset wheels that stick out beyond the fender. OEM size and offset or similar required. Tire size must be 205-245 width, a min sidewall of 50 and max of 65, and all four tires matching, with 340 or higher treadwear DOT radial.. All four tires must be same size and no stagger is allowed in any way. Tires are to be 340 treadwear minimum, with a minimum tire pressure of 35psi to be checked pre race and randomly post race. Used tires are strongly encouraged, and tires that fir the criteria directly above and have date codes older than 2 years with more than 4/32 of tread and less than 9/32nds of tread can run 25psi"

After speaking with many folks, we all find that, depending on how resourceful someone is, these cars could be built race ready for $500 - $4000 on the extremely high end. The Crown Vic would be the obvious easy button here, but this also allows the Lexus LS400, and other random RWD cars that sit behind shops and other places with very easy repairs to get running for this class to be pulled into the shop and put on a track as a very cheap disposable modern bomber/pure stock style car considering the cars that are sitting around in the year 2023.

If this sounds provacative, I do implore you to read the rough draft of the rule book, twice, and chime in with your thoughts, or tag a friend who you know has been itching to go racing but can't justify spending $10k to try it out, but could totally spend a couple thousand to try it out and have something they can sell for about that when done. The way the rules will be written the safety will also attempt to align with 24 hours of Lemons and other items so that racers can have a low-budget car that they can do an array of motorsports activities with very cheap, as well as a group of cars that make v8 noises, and can do a standing burnout, as the front wheel drive and/or 4 cylinder format is something that does disinterest some folks and keeps them from getting into some of the existing entry level classes that are still quite more expensive than this locked down rule format where stock means stock. Again this is aimed at getting new people to the track and involved in motorsports.

If you're concerns with one car having a better motion ratio, ackerman, torque curve than the other 40 cars you could use in this class, you have completely missed the entire point of this class to an aboslutely phenomenal degree.

Street SedanBeta.pdf

[24nomo]

Lets bring back the Late Models.  Fans come to watch those.   They had a big sponsor when they were running.  Meaningful sponsorship is out there for Late Models.   

Edited May 25, 2023 by 24nomo

[metroracer]

True & Real Street "Street Stocks" or The Return of the very Popular / Old Time "Pro Stocks" is my vote  !!!!

Edited May 25, 2023 by metroracer

[24nomo]

Maybe they will bring that $50,000 to win $10,000 to start Super Late Model Race to HMP.   They said they had the money and TV trucks for it already

[RodneyRodriguez]

a bomber class is needed, this crown vic thing we were doing 15 years ago around here that is a great option. keep the rules stock, keep the drop down drivers out of it, 2 biggest issues, win a title move up. 4 cylinder class is the new bomber just due to availability right now as long as they don't let them become a Texas Pro Sedan with advancements if you want a true stock class. 

If we are talking Texas and paved, cut the classes, too many it has been that way the last decade and a half. It's a no win, get rid of a class and 10 people come out of the woodwork that were going to be ready for the next race lol.

I'd say and again this is just my thought:

Trucks, Mods, a factory stock type class, 4 cylinder, bomber type, Outlaw. For fans, they all look different and it's easy to follow. 

Others, cycle them in as "guests" and if low counts keep on you get to run early as "pre race" . 

 

[ron.brown11]

It's true, sick minds do think alike Rodney. Late models & super late models have just about priced themselves out of a weekly show. If a track can put a good purse out there for a couple of specials a season, it's a lot more likely they can attract a bunch of the traveling late models. I love the mods idea, but the rules will need to limit the tires strictly, or make the run a crate engine (both preferably). That would put the onus on driving the car, as opposed to buying all the expensive stuff.

I will always love the open mods, but they too are pricing themselves out of being a weekly series. NASCAR used to have a series called Grand American Modifieds (they may still have). The rules were fairly restrictive. No quick changes; stock front clips; only upper control arms could be tubular; 360ci engines w/steel or albumin heads; Steel non-rebuildable shocks; Steel cranks that weigh at least 52lbs; no aluminum rods with an inspection hole in the oil pan to check; stock type trans with at least 2 forward gears & reverse; must be able to start/take off from a stopped position; a clutch no smaller then 7"; no in/out boxes; 8" tires that are of a hard compound; 2600 lbs & max 58% left side weight with the driver; the track width no wider than 78" measured from outside to outside of the tires; must run a spool in the ear end; no drilled axles; coilovers on the rear only. I'm probably missing a couple of items, but the thrust of the rules is to try and keep the cost of the car down.  

There's a class that runs at LaCrosse Speedway that's very interesting. I have not looked at their rules for that division, but here's some of the cars I've seen race in it. Old (60s & 70s) late model/sportsman cars; modifieds; outlaws & 6 cylinder street stocks. Plus, all cars must run in a lap time bracket. If they bust that bracket, the are DQ'd. That way nobody can go faster than the bracket, and you can basically run anything. I know that some of the cars run a rev limiter, as you can hear the engines cut out. I was surprised the first time I saw that class race, but it was a blast to watch. As loose as all the cars are, I'm guessing that they must run old take off tires. One guy runs a 1965 Chevelle, that was an old late model track champion's car. It had been sitting in a field for over 3 decades! The entire purpose was just that. To get these old discarded race cars back racing, and at a pretty suppressed cost. Their average car count for that division is about 20 cars nightly.

[HiTech]

what you are all talking about  has been done over time and time again ... u know it  works till   SMALL  RULE  change to help another type of car comes along  starts beating the other s and this starts right back over .. we old folks have been there done that more than once ..  just ove  6 years ago we were running  a stock motor  stock chassis no racing springs and   stock 4 barrel carbs  in what was called puretsock .. that same class is now factory stock  cost more to build one  of  those cars   than almost any .. the price of a motor today  would build two to three purestocks  6 years ago .. fact just getting the chassis now   then add shocks   could build few purestocks  6 years ago  .. ..  we cc shut down  we took jesses old car   put it on dirt made a couple of spring changes ran all season finished every race very lap except two  . two blown tires cost us two laps  we didnt win any races except on feature  and ended up leading the points wiht three race nights left .. and didn  even know what we were doing on dirt ..... my son had ot get out two seasons ago  .cost  i was glad cost was way to high  ..last year i hardly  went to a race ..  this  year i have not even seen  the track .. 

[JamesHigdon]

We spoke on FB but I’ll reiterate it here, I love this idea.

I can tune a carb and build a SBC but I’m in the extreme minority being able to do so; most mechanics now just can’t. They have zero interest in racing “classic” cars like G-Bodies and 2nd Gen Camaros.

A truly cheap class that allows 20 and 30 year olds to run cars they can relate to and work on should draw new blood into the sport.

A $1,000 Q45 or LS400/430 would be amazing to see on track and honestly they’re a lot closer related to “Stock Cars” from NASCAR’s early years than anything you’d see at most tracks today. They’re cheap, real transportation turned into racecars.

Tell me when to start looking for an ‘98-00 LS400…and don’t tell anyone else that’s the best car. 

 

[JamesHigdon]

Oh…and whoever reads this think about it then respond.

Weekly tracks should have 4 classes.

1) FWD/RWD 4 Cylinders limited to 2.5L. Cages, knock out the glass, gut them and nothing else.

2) 4 Door RWD Turbo 4 or NA I/V6 - V8 limited to 4.6L. Cages, knock out the glass, gut them and nothing else.

3) Same as above but with tuning, bolts on, suspension mods.

4) Coupe or Sedan - Turbo 4, Turbo 6, NA 8/10/12 ok with no displacement limit. Unlimited save for no chassis mods, 8” slick, 3,200 lbs. You want to run a ‘69 Chevelle, fine. You want to run a 4.6L STS, go for it. You want to run a 330i or S550 or whatever, make it safe. You have enough funding for a ‘23 Mustang? Bring it out. 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by JamesHigdon

[MikePeters95]

So it seems a small minority of the posts are actually related to this topic in any way.

Rodney, I agree, way way way way way way too many classes.  This is the year 2023, and we need to look at classes that can be successful in 2023.  We need to stay away from racing vintage cars that can't be accessed by 90% of society.  We've tried the "go pull the cars out of the weeds!" approach, and we see how that went, it didn't.  We need to accept that the Metric Chassis hasn't been made in nearly 4 decades, same with the Fbody stuff.  

If the same thing wants to be attempted, again, and again, and again, and a different result is expected, that's literal insanity. 

We need classes the average person can tell apart, with names and simple understandings that can be discerned by an average person, and something accessible to the average person.

There are 16 million people in the Houston metro area, and so far the take rate on the current classes including the popular ones is less than one in a million.  

It's my opinion that more than one in a million people in Houston are interested in circle track asphalt racing, and I think it's insane that we keep trying the same thing with a take rate of literally, less than one in a million.  

This was designed for dirt and asphalt with input from a lot of people before I posted it publicly, this is meant to also give the crown vics a home at the dirt and asphalt tracks, it's designed for anyone ages 16-100 with a goal of a build being an honest $3000 or less to the average person, and cost of operation being less than $150 a weekend and 10 hours of work between events so the average person can access it.  The type of racer/customer I imagine would run this would be okay borrowing or renting a uhaul/penske trailer and would hopefully progress into bigger classes over time as their experience and financial abilities grow over time.  You don't need a shop for this, you don't need scales, you can park this in the driveway with a car cover on it between events and any damage is literally fixed with a trip to car-part.com, LKQ, Craiglist/Marketplace, or a trip to the auto parts store.  Zero specialty stuff.  And with little to no mechanical grip with the tires, even if one platform is better than another, it really won't matter much.

The move up rule is something I think would be on a case by case basis, you don't want career Street Sedan racers like some the guys in EcoStock, but you don't to fiscally shame someone who can run this class, but can't afford to move them up because they're winning.  Over years if this class happens, and then develops, it would funnel into what Florida is doing where they then allow people to do springs and some things and run with the faster classes using all the vintage metric/fbody stuff.  

If you truly study the cars, costs, and talk to some of the drivers, there really isn't a true entry funnel for new blood at the track.  Even the eco stock guys I talk to have gotten out of control with spending and buying tires and stuff, and a lot of people just don't get excited about owning a front wheel drive racecar that I've talked to that do other motorsports that ask me about my truck stuff, but they are also not willing to drop 15-20k on a truck that could get totaled every weekend by the crash truck racers that seem to keep showing up at HMP, which I'm glad appears to be addressed finally with the new team running the track, who also took a gander at this and told me to post it around some.

Despite all the criticism about literally everything except this rule set from people who I'm pretty sure didn't actually read it, a lot of repair shop owners, and younger people I've talked to said something like this is what they've been looking for for a while, or it's in their fiscal ability.  I was hoping someone would find some exploit I didn't think of so the rule set could get ahead of it but so far nobody has found much other than someone stating one car will have better ackerman than another, and they would find and buy that car and win, which really just tells me they overlook the point of the class entirely and probably wouldn't run anyways.

Anyways, good discussion either way.

[TBone]

I don't know enough about the many cars out there to identify an overdog. But I have a few questions.

1. Weight: as raced, or listed curb weight of the stock car?

2. I'd allow something to add right front camber. Most cars have struts, so maybe limit it to slotting the strut tower. For a-arm cars, did they typically have enough adjustment to get a lot of camber?

3. I have concerns about the tire rule for racing on pavement. Big heavy cars on asphalt with hard tires will quickly lead to overheating and tire destruction, imo. 

4. What if the factory tire size is a 235/45/17 front and 255/40/17 rear, like the BMW 540 that is a listed suggestion? Not an eligible car? If yes, you need to clarify the eligibility. If no, you need to clarify the wheel/tire rule to allow non-OEM sizes.

Thanks for Your effort. On the whole, I agree that it's time to bring racing into the next decade. 

[MikePeters95]

Great points TBone.  First I want to thank you for a really valuable post and some really good input. This is probably some of the best input I've gotten over the last two days and I truly do appreciate that you seem to have read this but also have targeted and understood what this potential class is really trying to accomplish. Thank you for chiming in on this.

Quote

1. Weight: as raced, or listed curb weight of the stock car?

To keep it simple, I'd envision tech being going across the scale, and checking the min tire pressure post race, and that's it, keep it simple with a visual check on top of that where the unit is stock.  Arrival tech to get on track is safety and just a visual verify its stock, etc.  Post race would literally be weight and tire pressure.
 

Quote

2. I'd allow something to add right front camber. Most cars have struts, so maybe limit it to slotting the strut tower. For a-arm cars, did they typically have enough adjustment to get a lot of camber?

This is a good point, without opening pandoras box of "keep it stock...but you can do this" I think it would be best to let this develop if it even happens and go from there.  Maybe allowing slotted holes on struts and shims on A-Arm cars would keep it cost effective, and the vehicles stock, but allow this to happen somewhat.  Great point, and that's exactly the type of oversight I was looking to address when I threw this a couple places online.

After putting 5 min of thought into this, maybe some wording such as "The suspension arms, links, spindles, shocks, springs, and struts must be OEM or OEM equivalent parts, no aftermarket performance parts.  However, to assist with tire wear, components above the spindle may have the mounting location slotted for alignment purposes only.  The arms, links, and components must remain stock, but the holes on the chassis can be slotted, or have shims added if there is not enough range in the alignment abilities from the factory.  Any bolt on parts found to be modified will be deemed illegal, only slotting of holes and shims may be added on the chassis side for the strut mount, or upper control arm, for alignment purposes only."

Maybe something like that keeps it simple, solves that issues, and gets ahead of any loopholes.
 

Quote

3. I have concerns about the tire rule for racing on pavement. Big heavy cars on asphalt with hard tires will quickly lead to overheating and tire destruction, imo.

 

Street tires have come a LONG way, and thankfully now we have the 24 Hours of Lemons and Chump car to pull data from for this exact same type of ruleset.  Most modern street radials slammed up to 35psi should be okay, and with the tire rule literally rewarding people for visiting their local used tire shop (hopefully some enterprising individuals will try to ask for a sponsorship and get tire shops interested in coming to watch their car they're throwing some used tires to for fun and get more butts in the seats).  Even if folks are replacing a tire or two every event or so, the cost control of running used street tires which can readily be had for 0-40 still keeps that in check, or at least that's the idea.

Quote

4. What if the factory tire size is a 235/45/17 front and 255/40/17 rear, like the BMW 540 that is a listed suggestion? Not an eligible car? If yes, you need to clarify the eligibility. If no, you need to clarify the wheel/tire rule to allow non-OEM sizes.

Placard size doesn't necessarily imply eligibility and I considered that loophole, as well as different trim levels having different sizes and the hassle of keeping tabs on all that.  The wheels where where I was trying to keep costs down by encouraging stock or junkyard OEM wheels, and trying to stay away from everyone running Aero wheels that stick out way beyond the factory bodies on these, if we run high offset OE type wheels and two guys hit each other or scuff the wall, the whole car can take that little hit and not actually damage anything functional or tires hopefully, but here is the current wording, I could massage it a little to "OEM Style" and make a provision for staggered cars, I was trying to make the rulebook as short sweet and easy to read as possible knowing the audience for this, hopefully, it's the first rule book they ever read so I tried to make it as simple as possible and easy to read for anyone who knew how to change oil, and change a spare tire, as that's who this class is trying to get into the track in my opinion.

I can easily and should add some wording here to clarify, that the OEM is a guideline but delete the part about must be OEM, and just paint the box as 205-245 / 50-65 @ 35psi unless it's 2 year or order tire @ 25psi, 360 treadwear minimum, all four tires must match in size, OEM or OEM style wheels, tire and wheel must not protrude or stick out beyond the OEM fender line and must be within 1/2 inch of OEM offset / backspacing.  Very open to input if anyone has any, but that's a really great point you've made on some ambiguity and contradiction in wording as written at this time for potential vehicles this class is aimed at.

"2. Wheels and tires must be OEM. No aftermarket aluminum that are not OEM style. Steel police style or race style wheels are permitted, no low offset wheels that stick out beyond the fender. OEM size and offset or similar required. Tire size must be 205-245 width, a min sidewall of 50 and max of 65, and all four tires matching, with 340 or higher treadwear DOT radial.. All four tires must be same size and no stagger is allowed in any way. Tires are to be 340 treadwear minimum, with a minimum tire pressure of 35psi to be checked pre race and randomly post race. Used tires are strongly encouraged, and tires that fir the criteria directly above and have date codes older than 2 years with more than 4/32 of tread and less than 9/32nds of tread can run 25psi if all four meet this criteria. DOT radials above 340 treadwear only!!!!"


 

Edited May 26, 2023 by MikePeters95

[MikePeters95]

13 hours ago, JamesHigdon said:

 

Tell me when to start looking for an ‘98-00 LS400…and don’t tell anyone else that’s the best car. 

 

Haha, dude they are EVERYWHERE and they are CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAP.  I think if this class gets green lit we will see a lot of them and more importantly, a lot of new racers and their friends now that racing is accessible to them in a way that they think is cool.

I think we'd see a lot of cheap old German stuff as well.  There are just so many cheap cars that will run for forever but the interiors and other things on them are absolute garbage, and they'd be perfect stripped down on a race track with some numbers on the side, and someone very excited to have a race car.

I feel like the 24 Hours of Lemons / Chump car crossover between this class back and fourth would be a real thing as well. Cheap cars people can run on asphalt, dirt, and do cheap endurance road racing would be really popular in my opinion.

Edited May 26, 2023 by MikePeters95

[RodneyRodriguez]

But then you look at dirt, plenty of Mods, Sport Mods.. regular fan says they look alike. Plenty of I-Stocks, and Factory. Regular fan says they look alike lol. That is what I like about for example the Waco Outlaw SS and Mary Ann's Street Stocks, hybrid as shit and every lookin kind of car. 

I am a huge fan of the Jr Lmtd concept especially if those kiddos which they all seem to, have aspirations to move up and race a sport mod. Waco has produced some bad ass drivers out of that class those kiddos are driving what they will be racing moving forward in a learning package, that's genius. 

 

[24nomo]

Can we bring the bicycles back too like SAS did?  They were cheap to run

[TBone]

Thanks Mike.

I think we'd just need to keep on open mind on tires. Start with the 340 TW. And if it doesn't work on pavement, be open to change. 

And just FYI, I've been racing ChumpCar and WRL (next step up in the amateur endurance ladder) since 2011. Never raced LeMons, though. Happy to discuss tires and cross-over potential.

[RodneyRodriguez]

Austin was the best place for the bike races, I'd like to see the old SA Sack Races anyone besides Nick know what that is lol

 

[JamesHigdon]

8 hours ago, RodneyRodriguez said:

But then you look at dirt, plenty of Mods, Sport Mods.. regular fan says they look alike. Plenty of I-Stocks, and Factory. Regular fan says they look alike lol. That is what I like about for example the Waco Outlaw SS and Mary Ann's Street Stocks, hybrid as shit and every lookin kind of car. 

I am a huge fan of the Jr Lmtd concept especially if those kiddos which they all seem to, have aspirations to move up and race a sport mod. Waco has produced some bad ass drivers out of that class those kiddos are driving what they will be racing moving forward in a learning package, that's genius. 

 

So explain stock car classes to the average person 

Person 1) “We have Modifieds, Trucks, limited Latemodels, street stocks and pure stocks.”

Person 2) “Cool so all different kinds of chassis and motors?”

1) “Umm…no. They all pretty much run the same engines and frames. Stuff that’s at best 40 years old but it could be 70 years old.”

2) “Ohh, so they all race together?”

1) “Well…no, we spilt them into as many subgroups as possible then don’t have enough of any group to make an entertaining race.”

2) “Yea, but at least you can run them at any track right?”

1) “No, that’s the best part! Each track changes their rules just a little so their cars can’t run at other tracks!”

2) “Umm…ok?”

[JamesHigdon]

8 hours ago, MikePeters95 said:

Haha, dude they are EVERYWHERE and they are CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAP.  I think if this class gets green lit we will see a lot of them and more importantly, a lot of new racers and their friends now that racing is accessible to them in a way that they think is cool.

I think we'd see a lot of cheap old German stuff as well.  There are just so many cheap cars that will run for forever but the interiors and other things on them are absolute garbage, and they'd be perfect stripped down on a race track with some numbers on the side, and someone very excited to have a race car.

I feel like the 24 Hours of Lemons / Chump car crossover between this class back and fourth would be a real thing as well. Cheap cars people can run on asphalt, dirt, and do cheap endurance road racing would be really popular in my opinion.

I’ll share this again here.

I own a shop, when you started talking about this class I took aside my best tech (who is dying to race something; he owns a 5.0L Ford Swapped Miata, a LS1 swapped C3, is LS Swapping his GMT400 and his daily is an AWD C300) and asked him about this class.

His exact response was “so I could have an actual racecar with a VQ motor? Or wait would the rules allow a 2JZ in a Lexus GS? Or I guess you could run a 1UZ! OHH! A 330i would be sweet, you’d give up a little power but gain it back in weight savings.”

He’s never watched a NASCAR race and never been to a circle track but a 3 minute conversation had him interested in seeing what this class would look like.

[HiTech]

4 hours ago, RodneyRodriguez said:

Austin was the best place for the bike races, I'd like to see the old SA Sack Races anyone besides Nick know what that is lol

 

i can bring my old bike ..i might make a lap and slow to boot .. just have medics at the half way mark .. 

[HiTech]

Just now, HiTech said:

i can bring my old bike ..i might make a lap and slow to boot .. just have medics at the half way mark .. 

 WHEN  we raced the green  8  purestock at sa kyle and cc even on dirt  we had some tires  that . i cant remember the brand   with out looking at a pic  those were bad ass    my brother inlaw ownes a tire store  and after burning up firestones every night    i  ask my brother inlaw  to find me some legal  tires  that wont burn up ... .... wow  did he  joshua ran a second faster  than anyone at sas when cris and them opened the track  for those what four race weekends .. he won  5 or  6  races two were features .. .. everyone thought  the motor was ilegal   it was a brand new in the box factory chevy motor from the dealership ..  those tires  ran almost all season   fact he was winning at kyle leading the points and cc speedway winning races there leading the points that year  and those tires played a big part of it all .. just  to bad  he got hit in the right rear  tire solid and bent the car  where we had no time left in the season to fix the issue  she ran loose after that ..  other wise he would have won  both championships that year .. i like what  mike is saying  with building a class like that ..  .. and james i am in the minorty aswell .i still  build most of our motors and tune them the old fashion way .. just finished a 468  13 to 1 twin  750 700 plus hp  for  the jet boat // still love  building  our motors . 

[NickHolt]

I'm glad folks are serious about coming up with ideas about how to save asphalt racing.  

A couple of points I'd like to make, if you don't mind.

1)  Rules.  The rules have to be very specific and very thorough for whatever class is being proposed.  I mean every possible detail has to be spelled out with no room for creative rule-bending. The idea that rules should be minimal hoping to attract a wide range of cars is crazy and a recipe for failure. Racers want to win and are very inventive and willing to make their own rules unless they are clearly spelled and strictly enforced all the time.

A couple of notes about rules here: 

A. Coming up with a comprehensive set of rules is extremely difficult. Input from a wide variety of experienced racers is mandatory. Rules made by one person end up being revised over and over as oversights and errors are needed.  And rules that change frequently are not conducive to the stability of the class. 

B. The rules must be strictly enforced with no exceptions. And the class/track management must back the tech officials every time. 

2) Low-cost classes is the key to the future success of asphalt racing - as many have pointed out.  But getting these low-tech cars to handle is a major challenge for racers to overcome and racers are very inventive when it comes to getting an advantage over their fellow racers. Very strict rules about shocks, springs, suspension components and tires are a must.  As soon as someone "innocently" re-mounts a suspension component to alter a roll center or gain a bump steer advantage, the class will be history.  Shocks should be issued by the track and dynoed to detect any re-valving efforts. Springs should be pulled, measured and rated randomly. 

I've been down the rules making/enforcing road many times in the past and the above is not theory. 

[RodneyRodriguez]

Great points, and B is the key. Every damn time. Hire god tech people, let them govern. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by RodneyRodriguez

[JamesHigdon]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:25 AM, NickHolt said:

I'm glad folks are serious about coming up with ideas about how to save asphalt racing.  

A couple of points I'd like to make, if you don't mind.

1)  Rules.  The rules have to be very specific and very thorough for whatever class is being proposed.  I mean every possible detail has to be spelled out with no room for creative rule-bending. The idea that rules should be minimal hoping to attract a wide range of cars is crazy and a recipe for failure. Racers want to win and are very inventive and willing to make their own rules unless they are clearly spelled and strictly enforced all the time.

A couple of notes about rules here: 

A. Coming up with a comprehensive set of rules is extremely difficult. Input from a wide variety of experienced racers is mandatory. Rules made by one person end up being revised over and over as oversights and errors are needed.  And rules that change frequently are not conducive to the stability of the class. 

B. The rules must be strictly enforced with no exceptions. And the class/track management must back the tech officials every time. 

2) Low-cost classes is the key to the future success of asphalt racing - as many have pointed out.  But getting these low-tech cars to handle is a major challenge for racers to overcome and racers are very inventive when it comes to getting an advantage over their fellow racers. Very strict rules about shocks, springs, suspension components and tires are a must.  As soon as someone "innocently" re-mounts a suspension component to alter a roll center or gain a bump steer advantage, the class will be history.  Shocks should be issued by the track and dynoed to detect any re-valving efforts. Springs should be pulled, measured and rated randomly. 

I've been down the rules making/enforcing road many times in the past and the above is not theory. 

I’ve been thinning a lot of about this. My input would be.

1) You have to allow air spring conversions (a lot of the cars talked about are offered with rear air suspension) BUT they’d have to be approved beforehand AND from a supplier selling OE style parts. This was an issue for us at CTS.

2) My thinking is the rule book actually needs to be VERY short. OE style components in OE locations mounted from OE mounts unless otherwise specified. What is OE style? Use “the RockAuto rule”, if it doesn’t come from the “Economy” or “Standard” section at RockAuto it doesn’t go on your car. Spell out VERY simply what is allowed. Straight pipes past the factory manifolds, adjust the alignment within factory specs (allow OE style camber kits if you’d like), gut it, knock out the glass, cage, that’s IT. If it doesn’t say it there isn’t illegal. If the car gets wrecked and your adjustments appear to add performance it’s illegal. If you tune the computer you get tarred and feathered on the front stretch before you can race again.

And to that end, make the penalties very LeMons like. Fining a guy $500 if he’s willing to spend $1,000 cheating in a eco class doesn’t matter but making him wear a chicken suit and sit in the stands for a race maybe would? Make it fun…that’s REALLY what’s missing.

[MikePeters95]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:43 AM, RodneyRodriguez said:

I am a huge fan of the Jr Lmtd concept especially if those kiddos which they all seem to, have aspirations to move up and race a sport mod. Waco has produced some bad ass drivers out of that class those kiddos are driving what they will be racing moving forward in a learning package, that's genius. 

 

What are these you speak of?  Link to rules and pics?

I've always wondered why there isn't a cheap platform that can start off with a cheap engine, and just have bolt on parts upgraded.