beentheredidthat15 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 judgement calls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 I vote for racing. Do onto others as they do to you! An eye for an eye! A shove for a shove, a bump for a bump, a spin for a spin! I guess I do not forgive and forget! No wonder Shawn will not build me a grandstock! I guess that is why I have a lot of enemies! hmmm What comes around goes around!! Crystal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgate Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 judgement calls [edited out by Nick Holt. 8/27/04] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosier1 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 I do agree judgement calls may be for the better,however the one thing I do like about the all involved rule is, I think it makes the drivers think twice before they intentionaly take someone out or bump someone because they know if they do they go to the back as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigL Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Judgement call.... Crazyhorse Crew - #5 SS Lester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobby74 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 I have been involved in the all involved rule several times and I will stick with the ALL INVOLVED RULE with some better tweaking. Driver Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teer Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I AGREE WITH CHASE! TRACEY TEER / #2 SS / BT SISTER AND MY OPINION COUNTS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 we hope???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teer Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 THAT WAS A JOKE. THE ONLY OPINION THAT COUNTS IS NICK'S. AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT I GATHER FROM THESE FORUMS. TRACEY TEER/ #2 SS/ BT SIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 THAT WAS A JOKE. THE ONLY OPINION THAT COUNTS IS NICK'S. AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT I GATHER FROM THESE FORUMS. TRACEY TEER/ #2 SS/ BT SIS The track sets the rules and it is my job to enforce the rules. So in that sense, you are right - in the end it is up to me to make the final decision on a lot of scenarios. But, I have always listened to drivers, crews, fans and my fellow officials. Anybody that says different is talking about a different Nick. I was a car owner, a driver (awful at best), and have been crew chief/suspension man on several different very successful race teams. I have also been a motorsports writer, the Chief Steward/Comp Dir at another track and the chief tech for a touring series. The one thing I have absolutely learned from this 30 years of varied racing experience is to listen to what people have to say no matter what their perspective. I do listen and value other people's opinions. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntex Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Although, I am sure my vote will not change anything, the "All Involved Rule" as it has been used at THR is simply a "Poor substitute for not requiring officials be officials". That input was given in detail to THR management in writing on May 8,2004. I was supsequently told by THR manatgement that Nick's vote was the only one that counted. Richard Norman (LM40) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teer Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 nick i think you misunderstood. tracey teer / #2 ss/ bt sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
car05 Posted August 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 The track sets the rules and it is my job to enforce the rules. So, Brian and Jim are the ones who are so animate about the all involved rule, not you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 So, Brian and Jim are the ones who are so animate about the all involved rule, not you? The "all involved" rule is not something I invented. This rule is used at short tracks in all areas of the country including San Antonio Speedway and many of the better short tracks back East. One of the primary reasons the rule has become more and more prevalent is that it reduces the chances of track officials "playing favorites." It tends to make the playing field more level for everyone, even those who have no "pull" with the track or the track's officials and it does cause drivers to think twice before attempting to spin someone out to gain a position or to brake check the car immediately behind. Is the "all involved" rule a cure-all? No. But it does level the playing field when compared to the "judgment" system. Look at it this way. Suppose a local business supports the track with a major sponsorship and also sponsors one of the track's drivers. Who do you think the track is going to rule for in questionable situations? Or let's say the major track sponsor has a close relative racing at the track. Again, in who's favor do you think the track is going to rule? And don't tell me this does not happen. It happens all the time in life, in business, in politics and in racing. Do officials still have to make judgment calls when using the "all involved" rule? Yes. I make many of them every race. Anybody with a scanner listening to the track communications can verify that. Sometimes just figuring out who actually was involved is a real challenge. Does the all involved rule eliminate all the errors made by track officials? No, of course not. People make mistakes and sometimes calls are blown or missed entirely. But officials blow calls using either system. Does the THR ownership support the "all involved" rule? At first both owners were skeptical. Now both support the "all involved" rule, especially since the two additional clarifications were added. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvinator Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Is the "all involved" rule a cure-all? No. But it does level the playing field when compared to the "judgment" system. Look at it this way. Suppose a local business supports the track with a major sponsorship and also sponsors one of the track's drivers. Who do you think the track is going to rule for in questionable situations? Or let's say the major track sponsor has a close relative racing at the track. Again, in who's favor do you think the track is going to rule? And don't tell me this does not happen. It happens all the time in life, in business, in politics and in racing. Nick Holt Hello everybody. I think what nick said would NOT or should not happen with a Judgement call. If its 50/50 on what happened, send both to the rear. At least it would get us away from bad calls on those that DID NOT cause the caution, but merely were caught up in it. In other words, if you have to think more than 10 seconds who caused it, send both to the rear. Also, the FANS can see as much as us when calls "appear" to goto a track favorite or whatever and the "booos" have always spoke for themselves. I have'nt known Nick long but, I am willing to trust you to "judgemen calls" and good luck! p.s. hope to be back soon and I love our local track and am thankful we have one. The Marvinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Thunder Hill Raceway rained out. We got all the practice sessions in but just after drivers's meeting it started and really didn't stop. So I guess we're not the only ones that don't like the all involved rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodneyRodriguez Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Actually the rain began after Jack announced the mirrors were coming out .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 I went to Hickory Motor Speedway about 10 yrs ago they do not have a all involved rule or a judgement call approach to caution or crashes they have the same system that Nextel cup and Bush GN does if two cars make contact the one that spins or crashes the guy that looses control goes to the back and the one that continuse retains his position.I watched as guys spun each other out turn cars in the wall and the guy that started the contact was allowed to keep his positiion no one went to the back.There was lots of wrecked cars and mad driver and crews it was along night of racing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 when i was a kid me and my sister would fight ,as siblings often do, and we would often go before our judge, jury, and giver of punishment,mom. raising two hellions and working all day to come home to two kids with a bag full of who did what to who was many times met with a" i don't care who started it,ya'll both can go to your rooms and figure it out."Lax parenting? nah,all involved? you bet. it sucked then and it sucks now but it forced us to figure it out or "hello walls". maybe we could have an end of the year "ALL INVOLVED SHOOTOUT" where everyone who was"all involved" gets invited and nick has to race in it too, and you switch cars with the person you got "all involved"with and go around the track backwards like them aussies. 10,000 to win. man it would be huge. that's the problem ,there is no incentive to the all involved rule. if you made it special everything would be cool. maybe a special trophy for the most "all involved" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Maybe we can get "Brake Check" on south Lamar to sponsor it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 this was a round about pole-we've all already said we've been to tracks with the rule in exsistense,,,blah blah blah-sorry kathy...they are not depending on it...tweak/smeak to...if you don't want to be responsible for making a call that puts an innoccent guy to the back-act ignnorrant,take no responsibility and have him put there anyway...HOW MANY TIMES HAS THE SUGGEESTION BEEN MADE(and the way s.a. uses it)if you can't reach agreement on what caused the caution-EVERYONE INVOLVED GOES TO THE BACK-that is how this rule was intended when is was invented...but leave it to us to try and reinvent the wheel-and claim it's working for everyone else... this is not bashing or slamming of the track or you nick ,just my opinion...but i'm begginning to believe i could make better use of my time by talking to the wall!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgate Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 nick you said this method is used at better short tracks back east. THR is one of the best in texas. it just needs to be refined. the no mirriors is a real good step in the refining precess. It is a good call in my book. Going back to the longhorn days there were no mirriors in any class and the drivers had to driver the cars and not block anybody. That is the way it sould be. Also to help is to take away the radios in the lm class. I think you would see a big improvment in that class as will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 this was a round about pole-we've all already said we've been to tracks with the rule in exsistense,,,blah blah blah-sorry kathy...they are not depending on it...tweak/smeak to...if you don't want to be responsible for making a call that puts an innoccent guy to the back-act ignnorrant,take no responsibility and have him put there anyway...HOW MANY TIMES HAS THE SUGGEESTION BEEN MADE(and the way s.a. uses it)if you can't reach agreement on what caused the caution-EVERYONE INVOLVED GOES TO THE BACK-that is how this rule was intended when is was invented...but leave it to us to try and reinvent the wheel-and claim it's working for everyone else... this is not bashing or slamming of the track or you nick ,just my opinion...but i'm begginning to believe i could make better use of my time by talking to the wall!!!! Shawn Paul, I do read TSZ especially carefully since I am a moderator here. I hear what you and certain others are saying. You have made yourself very plain -- you don't like the version of the "all involved" rule that we are using at Thunder Hill Raceway and you want it changed. I believe you have stated that very clearly here on Texas Speed Zone. While I fully understand the value of launching an internet-based campaign to force a rule change, the rules and policies of THR are not determined by informal, highly emotionally charged opinions expressed in internet forums. They are usually well thought-out and with the best interests of the track, its competitors and its fans in mind. Are mistakes made by the track? Of course. Is the track committed to changing things that are not working properly? Yes. Frankly, I have found that the staff and management at Thunder Hill Raceway are very responsive to the people and teams that they serve. Many changes have been made at the track over the past year, many in direct response to input from teams, fans, sponsors and interested parties. I can tell you without a doubt that I am listening to your views on the "all involved" rule. You may not like the rule and my interpretation of the rule, but your suggestion that I am not listening is absolutely not true. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 nick you said this method is used at better short tracks back east. THR is one of the best in texas. it just needs to be refined. the no mirriors is a real good step in the refining precess. It is a good call in my book. Going back to the longhorn days there were no mirriors in any class and the drivers had to driver the cars and not block anybody. That is the way it sould be. Also to help is to take away the radios in the lm class. I think you would see a big improvment in that class as will. colgate, As announced in the THR drivers' meeting before the rainout, if removing the mirrors doesn't stop most of the blocking, the radios are next. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I am glad your doing something. Some action is better than inaction. However, Mirrors and Radios are not the root cause of the problem, Problem Drivers are. I agree with everything said about taking the mirrors out from personal experience. But we are just dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator. I mean, they make and we put mirrors in race cars for a good reason. To me, taking mirrors out seems to be raising the white flag of driver incompetence. Just like my feelings about the All Involved, we are punishing the good drivers along with the bad. What are we doing about problem drivers, which are the root cause, the tru problem? We need to ID the problem drivers and work with them to improve or park them. Nick, can you tell us generically what you are doing on that? As Competition Director, do you view THR drivers as "your" drivers, and is part of your job to help them improve and work with them from a "Driver Development" perspective? I think a majority have good crew chiefs or plenty of experience and don't need it. But you have the power to take people off the track, correct? How many consistantly problem drivers do we have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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