NickHolt Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I am glad your doing something. Some action is better than inaction. However, Mirrors and Radios are not the root cause of the problem, Problem Drivers are. I agree with everything said about taking the mirrors out from personal experience. But we are just dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator. I mean, they make and we put mirrors in race cars for a good reason. To me, taking mirrors out seems to be raising the white flag of driver incompetence. Just like my feelings about the All Involved, we are punishing the good drivers along with the bad. What are we doing about problem drivers, which are the root cause, the tru problem? We need to ID the problem drivers and work with them to improve or park them. Nick, can you tell us generically what you are doing on that? As Competition Director, do you view THR drivers as "your" drivers, and is part of your job to help them improve and work with them from a "Driver Development" perspective? I think a majority have good crew chiefs or plenty of experience and don't need it. But you have the power to take people off the track, correct? How many consistantly problem drivers do we have? Driver incompetence, as you put it, is a problem that is common to most, if not all, short tracks. Like it or not, most short tracks around the country are pretty much open and accessible to anyone with enough gumption, financial backing and “want to” to put together a car and go racing. Obviously, not everyone meeting the above criteria has the knowledge, skill or ability to become a first-rate stock car driver and many never do gain the knowledge, skills and abilities needed to improve. It has always been the driver’s responsibility to improve, not the track’s, however. The track provides the racing surface and, hopefully, a set of workable rules and officials needed to enforce those rules while the driver provides the race car and the driving expertise. Very few short tracks run racing schools or require a certain level of competence in order to compete. That being said, there are many resources available – books, videos, seminars, countless websites, and just plain asking questions of other drivers and teams – that any team wishing to improve their performance can access. Asking the track to provide those tools, while a great concept, is beyond the means of most short tracks including Thunder Hill Raceway. But your question as to what actions I take to improve drivers, as long as we are leaving particular drivers out of the discussion, is legitimate. First, I use a progressive disciplinary approach for most of the routine, chronic offenses. A verbal warning comes first, followed by a written warning if the offending behavior continues. Then comes a probationary period. If the unwanted behavior continues during a probationary period, then a suspension is issued. This system give the benefit of the doubt to the driver, but soon escalates to a severe punishment if the offending behavior persists. There are other times when more immediate disciplinary action is used. For instance, fighting, ramming incidents and other serious offenses (many of which are covered in the THR rules) all have immediate negative consequences. Second, I have made it well known that Thursday practice sessions are a great opportunity for teams to come to the track with an eye towards improving their performance. I make it a point to be at the track for these practice sessions with my trusty pryrometer to give suspension or setup advice to any team that asks for help. I close my business at noon on Thursdays and have not missed a Thursday practice session yet. So far this season teams competing in every THR class plus several teams that compete in the classes that visit THR with their touring series have also sought suspension advice. Help with anger management, lack of grey matter. lack of experience or other root causes of poor performance seems to be beyond the scope of society, let alone a struggling race track. I hope this helps answer some of your concerns. Please be advised that I intend to keep this discussion at the “generic” level and not get into specific drivers or incidents in the forum environment. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkr77 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 As announced in the THR drivers' meeting before the rainout, if removing the mirrors doesn't stop most of the blocking, the radios are next. Nick Holt [ Before you jump to any conclusions about taking away radios, I think you should just monitor the radios and see what they are actually being used for...not every team out there is using them to block. -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Before you jump to any conclusions about taking away radios, I think you should just monitor the radios and see what they are actually being used for...not every team out there is using them to block. -Tim Exactly. We will be monitoring with scanners for the remainder of the season. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Nick, Thank you for your reply. I have seen you there on Thursdays and you have even stopped by to help me. You are a great resource many should take advantage of. Understand and agree with all of your points. And, while I do understand the lack of resources, I do not think it is unreasonable for you to require frequent offenders to come out on a Thursday or show up for early practice on Saturday for a little one on one with you or the appropriate person. You are there anyway. I don't think there are that many drivers that need extra attention. I bet those that do need help, would appreciate it more than getting threatened or chewed out when they just don't comprehend what the heck they are doing wrong. I am not suggesting you or THR open a drivers school and I'll pass on the easy, smart alec jokes. If we were elite drivers, we wouldn't be here on a regular basis anyway. But the majority of the drivers at THR are outstanding local racers and have good skills, most without the benefit of any kind of driving school. I would rather be on the street with them than anyone else on our roads around here. There will always be accidents and idiots. Some people will always be idiots beyond help and some of us are only temporarily afflicted. The majority of the repeat problem drivers and/or inexperienced drivers could be helped with a little one-on-one "positive attention" with someone that wants to see them improve and has the power to sit them down if need be. They might also appreciate you seeing what they are seeing, even if they aren't exactly seeing things right. Many people learn not from being told, but rather by being shown. I, like most drivers, have ADHD and don't listen real well anyway (I had to put one sort of half joke in). And what we do does not translate well from a group meeting to the track. Drivers meetings in a class room type setting are only so effective. The people that get it, get tired of hearing it and those that don't get it, still won't get it no matter how many times you say it. They don't know what they don't know. Most people don't want to ask a question in front of their competitors that might show them as weak or inexperienced. No question is a dumb question, but some questions are just plain embarrasing to ask. Right now the skilled drivers being punished by a few who either don't know or don't care or both (the old 80/20 rule). As Competition Director, you are responsible for the product on the track. The buck stops with you. The independant contractors that provide the service have to meet your expectations if they wish to continue to be able to provide the service. Regardless of the "all involved" or whatever rule is in the book, the on-track product is all about you and what you allow. The issue is probably not so much the rules as the drivers. Perhaps a time investment in a few drivers will improve the product for the paying customers and the improve the conditions for your independant contractors who are doing an excellent job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntex Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Thank you 29LL. Your response to Nick's response was excellent. It's great that someone is taking the time to think this stuff through and offer some constructive alternatives. As a veteran driver, I have personnaly conducted "in-the-pits driver workshops" and had great results. The drivers appreciate them and it goes a long way toward setting the proper expectations. The "Progressive Punishment" approach is not only a "negative" approach to he problems of driver behavior, but it is also is often too little, too late to save race cars, reduce the wrecks and improve the quality of the show. Obviously, it has not been working. Just about the time someone gets to the "Suspension Phase", they seem to straighten up for a period of time so they get to start the porcess over. Expecting the driver behavior issues to cure themselves is just dreaming. Maybe, its time to stop being afraid of "track financial supporters", "car counts", "potentially bias officials", and start managing the process. Seems like that's what somebody should be getting paid for. Just an opinon. Keep up the good input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVCMNGR1 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 WOW, sounds like six sigma is being implemented at THR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KahneFan Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Is there a way to let people just race? If Stewart sends Kahne to the back by bumping him, NASCAR doesn't do anything during the race, they just call him to the 'oval office' after the race. Can't it be that way at THR also? I realize that if you're the driver who was wronged, it sucks. But, as a fan, I get tired of seeing a driver shoot off into the infield, wait for the flag to wave, then get moving again. If it were similar to NASCAR, then people might hop back on the track and we might have less cautions, which would get us out earlier and make the houses behind THR happier as well (not that we really care about that anyway ) Also, if it was this way, I think it would make people stop giving break checks because if they spin and end up in the rear... too bad so sad. As it is now, break check and both go to the rear which sucks for 2nd, 3rd, 4th.. who ever's behind the person checking up. After the race is over is when Nick should call the driver(s) into the 'oval office' and then punish them. Don't punish the other drivers... and fans... during the race. And if someone keeps it up, make them miss a race or two. BTW, just wondering, what's wrong with blocking? With a track like THR, you could get someone to 'block' their way off turn 4, or 'block' their way into the front wall, which would let you and 4 of your closest friends by em' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Your response to Nick's response was excellent. It's great that someone is taking the time to think this stuff through and offer some constructive alternatives. Not that it seems to matter...maybe that's why the majority of drivers are frustrated... While I fully understand the value of launching an internet-based campaign to force a rule change "Unless it runs opposite of what I think" the rules and policies of THR are not determined by informal, highly emotionally charged opinions expressed in internet forums. - Nick Holt Marc just wanted to see the count. It is overwhelmingly against "all involved". If it would have been a minority opinion of the drivers, he would have dropped it. It's not his fault the results came out against your position. I can't believe how badly you appear to discount the viewpoints of others when you don't agree. I applaud Currey for trying to do something constructive. How else is he supposed to get the consensus of drivers? I suppose he can turn the next drivers meeting into a riot. Is that constructive? While he took the opposite stance of your position, he started this thread in a positive way. This has been allowed to turn into a highly emotionally charged issue long before it came to the internet. That's not his or the driver's fault. Marc is a smart guy, an asset to THR and our racing community. How was it allowed to get to this point? Regarding your favoritism comment - some people told me they thought it was reverse bias in the incident the other week. (I only bring it up to show you can never make bias charges and conspiracy theories go away- that's the great american past time). You are obviously strong enough and/or stubborn enough to stand up for what you believe in. You seem like the perfect person to run a Judgement Call based system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 The recent threads and poll about the "all involved" has been very informative and, for the most part, quite constructive. It is obviously an issue that several TSZ members feel very strongly about. While there have been a few personal attacks mixed in with the discussion, I have let them slide since the majority were directed towards me. If they had been directed towards someone else they would have been edited out. And thanks to the several people who contacted me by phone, email or in person to express support but chose not to become part of the public discussion. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest texracer Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Nick Im with WKR77. Sure hope you think long and hard about taking out radios. Moniter them please, but only take them away if they are used for the wrong purposes. See you sat. at THR. jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Can't say I'm surprised at the response...it isn't about a rule, it's about an attitude...maybe you think the power you have to edit us out on TSZ transfers to THR...It doesn't...and that's not a bash, that's a legit observation...I hear you loud and clear Nick, this has gone as far as it can go in this venue...LL PS TSZ Forum- THR has done a lot to improve this year as an organization. Still a lot to do, but the problems on the track stick out like a sore thumb and are very simple to fix. More rules and arrogance are not the answer. For all the people that don't care for me or my opinions (and I know it might make a nice Saturday Night Short Track Crowd), I am just someone who wants to see racing prosper in this part of the world. If I had an official job at one of the tracks, you would not have found me posting crazy BS on the internet. Nick has done a lot of good things for a lot of people, but something has come badly off track at THR. Not JMO! Jason has put together a good site, and while not everyone likes him, we are all lucky he took the effort to do it. He is a valuable asset to the racing community. Time for me to quit posting...I am going to devote the time I waste on here to hands-on to fixing what's wrong and doing my part to improving things for all of us. I don't want any crazy thing I say on here to affect how you view those efforts. I am Pro-Track, Pro-Workers & Volunteers, Pro-Drivers, & always Pro-Fan. If you are any one of those, I'd rather hang out with you than anyone else (even if we don't always agree). And speaking of people I don't always agree with, Johnny, you've put in your $0.02 so often your up to $3.68!!! LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie49 Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Make that $3.70 How did I get in this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 So Larry, are you still going to come to the infield this weekend and help Aaron out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Wouldn't pass on a chance like that...I was going to do the heat races (no way I can let Josh 42 down in the trucks---or Tommy 42)...Just make sure Nick's not driving the pace truck...Shawn Paul says I can't run that fast...LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 hey larry-what's up--truck sounds good-be there sat nite-dont forget the kobeer-we'll slam afew after the races-see ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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