Kathy Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Well I guess it's my turn to pipe in here. My thoughts on this is of course just my thoughts. Each driver has a choice on how they want to drive. They are in control of that car. They are the one that can control there temper out on the track. They are the one that can stop the rough driving. I have always referred to some drivers as Mr. Jekyll and Dr. Hyde. They can be the nicest person out of the car, but once they put that helmet on. Look out. Until some drivers learn to control there tempers in the cars the rough driving will not go away. So, I guess I am agreeing with some of what has been said on here already. The drivers do need to fix it. The tracks can only do there best to control it. And fighting is never an option. All that is gonna do is get you kicked out of the track for a while or maybe the rest of the year. And of couse fines thrown in there too. I love seeing good hard side by side racing, but not all the bumping and pushing. Ok, that was my 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrungot Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Every driver has the right to drive their car however they want.. until it infringes upon the rights of another driver. At which time the governing body should assess a punishment that fits the crime.. Same way the US Declaration of Independence is written and enforced. Warning is fine for incidental use of the bumper... However there were several times Saturday that the punishment that fit the crime was TRAILER... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 The officials are the refs. In sports, you had better learn to adjust to the officials that are on the field THAT DAY. If the home plate umpire is calling "high" strikes that day, you either adjust to his view of the strike zone or suffer the consequences. The football ref has to make a potential Super Bowl changing decision in real time....pass interference or great defensive play? The rub comes in when the track officials (unlike the refs in the Super Bowl)are also in the business of trying to pay the track's expenses. Pitching an idiot "outta here" is much easier when they are in the financial "black" with hundreds of cars in the pits. When there are 50-70 cars in the pits and you need every income dollar to just pay the lease and the light bill......not so easy. JMO Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REBELRACER Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 but do you allow that one idiot to continue to crash others ever week just for the sake of keeping his money in your wallet. so instead of getting rid of ones guys money, you eventually lose 3-4 guys moneys. doesnt seem very business savy to me. take the guy aside and tell them to straighten up or hit the road. if they dont listen and respect you, why would you want them there anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwms96 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I think the bottom line is that folks need to own up to their mistakes on and off the track. There seems to be way too much "background noise" about "who did what to whom" and "what a lousy driver so and so is". Then you have the other whiners who aren't ever going to be happy no matter what is done to curtail or eliminate the rough driving. All this kind of behavior does is breed more problems. If teams, crews, and drivers would spend more time on improving their race program then the results will come when they are on the track. Stop the blame game and don't whine about the miniscule issues like scoring mistakes, line up mistakes, etc. Central Texas is extremely blessed to have a facility like Thunderhill and most of the racers I know agree. Mary Ann and ALL of the staff make up the heart of Thunderhill and our family feels extremely lucky to be able to race there. JMHO Looking forward to CCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh42 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 OK time insert pic of beating the deadhorse by the time yall are done talking about this the season will be over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 OK time insert pic of beating the deadhorse by the time yall are done talking about this the season will be over But WAIT! Who's responsible for rough driving anyway? And who's responsible for fixing the rough driving problem? We haven't reached a consensus yet for crying out loud. LOL... Just making a point.... there will never be a consensus on this topic. Bottom line, if the drivers don't get together and fix the rough driving problem, it'll remain a problem no matter how many black flags fly, no matter how many cars are put on the trailer, no matter how many common sense speeches are made by track officials, no matter how many opinions are voiced on Lone Star Speedzone. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 but do you allow that one idiot to continue to crash others ever week just for the sake of keeping his money in your wallet. so instead of getting rid of ones guys money, you eventually lose 3-4 guys moneys. doesnt seem very business savy to me. take the guy aside and tell them to straighten up or hit the road. if they dont listen and respect you, why would you want them there anyway. Sending that one guy down the road is an IMMEDIATE loss of income. What "might" happen later is only a POTENTIAL loss of income...and the light bill is due "tomorrow". I'm not saying that's "right" or "smart" or "fair". You just have to be able to see the business's big picture and adjust your expectations accordingly. JMO Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenny66 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Nick, Your suggestion about peer pressure is a good point, but from my perspective as a driver, The track should not allow or condone reckless driving. It is brought up in drivers meetings, it is reinterated at the drivers meeting and yet the reckless driving continues. You know who you are!!! Jumping the starts, going down in the grass on a start to gain positions and no yellow, no black flag or no one sent to the back. I do not like to have to repair my car because some jack*** thought he had the line. This is in no way meant to disrepect any the drivers or staff at THR. It is just my opinion on how some people don't respect others on the track or in the pits. I know this sounds like I am beating a dead horse, but at SAS we drove each other very clean and competitively and seldom did we have to shorten a race because somebody thought they were running a 20 or 30 lap Demo Derby. I enjoy the competition of racing, but having to do body work for no reason takes the fun out. Everyone sees things differently, everyone has their opinion on how a certain situation occured, everyone thinks they are right. The track officials should have final say in all track transgretions and their decision respected and observed. Go ahead and file a greivance or a complaint. You don't have to like it, but you do have to abide by it. Park someones a** for a week, fine them if you have to. But the drivers don't run the track, that job belongs to MaryAnn and the THR staff. JMO. Lenny66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 jay,reading your last few post give the impression a few racer's can play the hand,"track needs us so bad we can drive however we want too and they can't do nothing about it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 but do you allow that one idiot to continue to crash others ever week just for the sake of keeping his money in your wallet. so instead of getting rid of ones guys money, you eventually lose 3-4 guys moneys. doesnt seem very business savy to me. take the guy aside and tell them to straighten up or hit the road. if they dont listen and respect you, why would you want them there anyway. Well Said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 jay,reading your last few post give the impression a few racer's can play the hand,"track needs us so bad we can drive however we want too and they can't do nothing about it". Josh - CAN???? I wish I had a $100 bill for every time I've heard variations of these: 1. I'm never coming back to this place because... 2. I'm parking it until you see it my way... 3. I guess you don't want me to race here since you don't agree with me.... 4. I've got xxx cars that I help here at the track and I'm parking them because ..... 5. I've sponsored your track for xxx years and I'm outta here unless .... 6. I'm taking my toys to xxx track and I hope you rot in hell. 7. I'm going to see to it that you're fired ... 8. I'm going to organize a boycott because .... I'm pretty sure you've heard the same sort of statements by folks who have been "wronged" by the track. Jay has a great point. As long as the car counts are marginal, one or two or a dozen cars make a big difference. If the pits and grandstands are full, it's a whole lot easier to park someone for a few weeks for inappropriate/dangerous behavior either in the pits or on-track. Lenny - I was the Chief Steward at SAS for three years. During that time I banned a grand total of 1 driver, and that was for misconduct in the pits long after the races were over. And it was a rare night that I had to use the black flag on anyone. Why? Because there was an unwritten set of conduct rules that were firmly in place and self-enforced. Drivers like John Kelly, Rick Rapp, Freddy Fryar, Ed Sczech, Tommy Davis, Slick Yoemans, Leroy Brooks, Ervin Breiten, Greg Davidson, and a host of others set those rules and lived by them. If someone didn't want to abide by them, and there were a few, they didn't last long at SAS. No violence. Just a set of standards that everyone had informally adopted. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REBELRACER Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 yeah but those guys mentioned all ran back when people still respected one another. now days there is no respect so you end up with the problems we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 jay,reading your last few post give the impression a few racer's can play the hand,"track needs us so bad we can drive however we want too and they can't do nothing about it". Josh - CAN???? I wish I had a $100 bill for every time I've heard variations of these: 1. I'm never coming back to this place because... 2. I'm parking it until you see it my way... 3. I guess you don't want me to race here since you don't agree with me.... 4. I've got xxx cars that I help here at the track and I'm parking them because ..... 5. I've sponsored your track for xxx years and I'm outta here unless .... 6. I'm taking my toys to xxx track and I hope you rot in hell. 7. I'm going to see to it that you're fired ... 8. I'm going to organize a boycott because .... Nick Nick, I just wish I had a nickle for everytime I have heard those words. I could have retired a loooonnnng time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 yeah but those guys mentioned all ran back when people still respected one another. now days there is no respect so you end up with the problems we have now. Bingo... couldn't have said it any better myself. No one - not God, not the government, not you, not me - can enforce the concept of mutual respect. Mutual respect has to come from the people within that group. Sometimes it takes leaders from within that group to step up and lead the group in dealing with the issue appropriately, but having a bunch of "authorities" step in and try to cure the mutual respect problem is just not the way life works. Ah.. at last - Concensus! LOL Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I'm just relating what I have seen over the years at VARIOUS places. Just as a point of clarification----> The vast majority of the times I have seen the "lost income dollar" handcuff the flagstand, there was also a corresponding lack of tech....I mean zero. I see no signs that THR is reluctant to change the outcome on the racetrack in tech, regardless of who throw's a little fit or makes a discontinued usage threat..... JMO Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 sorta funny how one man who races at cc .built himself a new car this year ..and walla ..respect is what he drives with on his shoulder ..not to mention he dont want to wreck his new car ..said to me thats alot of work ...alot of drivers dont have to build there cars .or in some cases .fix em .just show up and drive ..i say before you get to race a car .you must learn what it takes to build one ..then you will see .some differents ..i ussually took care of my problems with another driver .after i cooled off .and if it was my fault .i said sorry .or i told them why they got hit ..but never in all the years have i had to go to a track official for help ...nore did i and any other driver go ti fighting ..thow sometimes that past my mind ..... ...folks your going to hit .your going to wreck ..think before you go to fighting ..cuz last weekend was not good in the pits .though no punches were thrown ..bottom line is you are man enough to go racen ..be man enough to use your head ........ count ot ten .. also remeber you have sponsors on those cars ..dont forget them ..plus kids are in the pits .so dont say they should not be there . cuz before .you were young and the tracks didnt let you in the pits ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 WOW, this is crazy... We have a set of track rules to race by so lets just enforce them.... Who's job is it to enforce them??? It may not be a popular thing to do but what good is a set of rules unless you enforce them ALL................... NUFF SAID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 WOW, this is crazy... We have a set of track rules to race by so lets just enforce them.... Who's job is it to enforce them??? It may not be a popular thing to do but what good is a set of rules unless you enforce them ALL................... NUFF SAID That's very easy to say, but quite another thing to actually accomplish. Sergeant, I spent my time in the military and understand about rules and rules enforcement. If only it were that simple in stock car racing. Jack is one of the best I've ever known from the Tech enforcement standpoint, but the attitude stuff - dangerous driving, being a jerk, being overly aggressive, mirror driving, punting, brake checking, pay backs, ganging up, and any other negative stuff that happens from time to time at race tracks - is not so easy to put in a rule book and call it black and white with a set of cut and dried penalties. I hate to say what I'm about to say because it always sounds like a cop out, but if a sincere person gave it some real thought and if they really wanted to be part of the solution to the problems that race tracks face, they would walk up to the track owner/promoter and volunteer their time behind the scenes preparing themselves to assume leadership roles at the track. Rick Day started out by volunteering to be an assistant to the the assistant scorekeeper at a track in Florida. He ended up running one of the most successful Asphalt Modified series in the country and served as Race Director at at least three tracks that I'm aware of. Naw.. let's not oversimplify a complex, persistent problem by assigning blame and demanding that "they" do something about "our" rough driving problem. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trbfan Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 As a fan im gonna throw my opinion in as I hope to someday be a racer myself. I agree that intentional rough driving should not be allowed, but there is a very fine line as to whats it too strick of rules. I know it hurts the drivers who dont have the money to keep buying new race cars and car parts to get into crashes, but you cant make the rules overly strict like in Grand-Am or Le Mans where if you make contact with someone you get a penalty. That will hurt the racing from a fans standpoint. There has to be atleast minimal bumping allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundogC3 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Black Flag. Still say if you cause a big one, you should be parked until ALL of the car's that where involved come back on the track. Might make you think about it. I love what I (we) do, but, sometime's you got to wonder why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 WOW, this is crazy... We have a set of track rules to race by so lets just enforce them.... Who's job is it to enforce them??? It may not be a popular thing to do but what good is a set of rules unless you enforce them ALL................... NUFF SAID That's very easy to say, but quite another thing to actually accomplish. Sergeant, I spent my time in the military and understand about rules and rules enforcement. If only it were that simple in stock car racing. Jack is one of the best I've ever known from the Tech enforcement standpoint, but the attitude stuff - dangerous driving, being a jerk, being overly aggressive, mirror driving, punting, brake checking, pay backs, ganging up, and any other negative stuff that happens from time to time at race tracks - is not so easy to put in a rule book and call it black and white with a set of cut and dried penalties. I hate to say what I'm about to say because it always sounds like a cop out, but if a sincere person gave it some real thought and if they really wanted to be part of the solution to the problems that race tracks face, they would walk up to the track owner/promoter and volunteer their time behind the scenes preparing themselves to assume leadership roles at the track. Rick Day started out by volunteering to be an assistant to the the assistant scorekeeper at a track in Florida. He ended up running one of the most successful Asphalt Modified series in the country and served as Race Director at at least three tracks that I'm aware of. Naw.. let's not oversimplify a complex, persistent problem by assigning blame and demanding that "they" do something about "our" rough driving problem. Nick Am glad to know another served this great country, commrade in arms. Well, being in the military and traveling the scope you get to see other tracks. Yes, Jack does enforce the Tech rules to the letter atleast what I have seen. Rules are rules and sometime the hard decision has to be made by an official. Jack seems to be able to make that call even if he knows that infraction did not give the racer any advantage, he just makes the hard call. Racers get upset storm off the Tech pad claiming not to return some do some do not. As for attidutes on the race track I have not seen the black flag used at the track yet. Yes, break checking and bumping and all that goes on it tough. But if, a guy bumps constantly to move a car just to pass that is rough driving. Yes, bumping going to happen not a problem just as long as you do not get the advantage. Each driver has a set of breaks the car in back just may have to finish there even though he/she are faster on the inside line. I was up north at a track and the black flag was used there during my first night there. I think if you use the black flag atleast in the heat race it will set the thone for the main event. It will just be a wake up to the driver that i can not go out and drive like that in the main or i will lose alot of points and that is what they race for point and hopefully fun. So, yes it is not easy but can be called and that was Rick Days definition if you got an advantage by bumping, roughing a car up then it was your fault and you got the black flag. Yes, he missed some calls and made some wrong ones but it got your attention. Well, thanks again for serving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Well, to throw my penny and a half in... I think this all goes back to the thread about the difference between rubbin' and wreckin'. Sometimes you have to use the chrome horn...BUT, there is no reason to drive deep into the corner and use the outside vehicle as a pinball bumper. There is a huge difference between a mental error with causes an accident or damage which shouldn't get a black flag, and one driver repeatedly doing the same thing over and over. That should result in a black flag or parking for rough driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair49 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Thanks Blue Moon that's the same thing i said when the rubbing is racing topic came up. nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 yeah but those guys mentioned all ran back when people still respected one another. now days there is no respect so you end up with the problems we have now. Bingo... couldn't have said it any better myself. No one - not God, not the government, not you, not me - can enforce the concept of mutual respect. Mutual respect has to come from the people within that group. Sometimes it takes leaders from within that group to step up and lead the group in dealing with the issue appropriately, but having a bunch of "authorities" step in and try to cure the mutual respect problem is just not the way life works. Ah.. at last - Concensus! LOL Nick I know why some of these names mentioned gets respect!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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