poorboy Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 I just had to go read the ARTS engine rules again because I thought I must have missed something. If anyone is spending 5000 to 6000 dollars to build one of those motors they are getting ripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 gasman, Glad I could amuse you. Guess I should take the answer as a NO? LOL Y'all can spin this all you like, but my reply wasn't about the quality of teams, drivers, or even crate motors for that matter, but HAVES and HAVE NOTS. The Street Stock(lowest class at the track, BTW) I drove had an old Chevy truck 350 w/a four bolt main held together by JB Weld, why, because we were lazy I guess! NOT, All that could be afforded. We got smoked constantly by guys with better, more expensive motors that dropped DOWN from Late Models after the track dropped the class, instead of moving up to Super Modifieds. Discounting flats, we bought one new tire and three decent take-offs at the start of the year. Guess were just lazy again. NOT, All that could be afforded. Every Winter we traveled three hours to the racing auction in Indy, to buy USED shocks, front suspension and other parts. Damn were we ever lazy! NOT! Hopefully this will help some of you understand why this sticks in my craw. Maybe crate motors are junk, maybe they just weren't "tuned" properly, who knows, but thumbing ones nose at people trying to spend less and still be able to race/be competitive, just burns my butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 http://www.sunocosuperseries.com/news/dec2...ines121103.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 same price or slightly higher than a concept and its an option, not a rule, with no weight brake. That would be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 Just curious are there Crate motors that produce a similar amount of HP as a ROMCO motor and are they more/less durable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegend96 Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 This is what I found. Look all the way to the bottom. Crate Engines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 The one thing that stands out is the steel crankshaft .I dont know any front running SAS or ROMCO late model car that does not run a billit crankshaft.and what is a pm rod ? The Crankshaft is a major dollar part and is puchaced for reliability,if the crank fails then most of the time the engine is junk.The reason that the higher dollar crank is needed is because of the weight of the car and the width of the tire reducing one or bothof these components will allow the use of a nodular or standard forged crankshaft.If the crate enginerule is implemented with the current weight and tire rule it will cost the races a bunch of money.Even rich guys dont like to spend more money for the same parts over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Jim, I believe the "PM" describes the technology that produced the connecting rod. Described below: Powder Metallurgy (PM) The main limitation to increasing the alloy content of highly alloyed, ingot cast materials like high-speed steels is their tendency to segregate during the slow cooling. Powder metallurgical (PM) techniques atomize molten steel into tiny droplets that cool so rapidly that internal segregation is prevented. Steels produced by compaction of these particles have a far more uniform microstructure, which provides numerous advantages over equivalent conventional grades. Many PM high- speed steels, stainless steels and nickel-based alloys are commercially available and, in the future, this technique promises to make possible new generations of highly alloyed steels. PM techniques enable the superalloy industry to produce more highly alloyed compositions for critical parts, such as gas turbine components Hope this helps, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Yea and Fe70Zr30 after mechanical alloying. The powder metallurgy laboratory is equipped for processing and general characterization of powder materials. Mechanical alloying is used to process a variety of materials including nanocrystalline materials, intermetallic compounds, metal-intermetallic composites, and magnetic materials. The laboratory is equipped with an inert gas glovebox for handling the powders; three SPEX 800 mills for producing powders in quantities of several grams; and a megaport mill for producing powders in quatities of several pounds. A benchtop microhardness tester and a differential thermal analysis system with capabilities to 1600 C are available for characterizing the powder materials. Current research projects include the study of grain growth in nanocrystalline copper and copper alloys using an in-situ X-ray diffraction technique, study of the high temperature structural stability of nanophase Cu-Nb-Cr and Cu-Fe-Zr alloys for high-temperature, high conductivity applications and characterization of nanocrystalline SmCo5, Cu-Fe and Cu-ZrO2 magnetic materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 gasman, Couldn't have said it better myself.. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 So to put it in terms I can understand, PM rods are a gamble at best in a racing motor! cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jont66 Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 PM rods may be a gamble, but I've run them in my ARTS engines since 2000, and have never had one break. And we consistantly turn them over 7000 rpms. So I guess I should go to the casinos in Shreveport and try my luck there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jont66 Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 When your paying 5-6000k for a Top running ARTS engine, your not just paying for the parts going into them, but for the 4-5 years of R&D put into the engines. It has taken a lot of teams lots of years to put together the current packages that they have now. Cylinder heads, piston designs, cam timing, carb tuning, distributor timing, exhaust systems, water pumps, all of that stuff has been tried and tested over the last 5-7 years the series has been in existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 but you are still running on 8" tires not 10" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Chase- Actually, in a nutshell, PM makes for a more consistent, and therefore better, product. You remember the old Chevy "Pink" rods? That was the rod a lot of people ran years ago, due to rules. I performed a variety of tests on those rods, several sets of them, and found them to be terribly inconsistent in their manufacture. I X-Rayed them, performed Rockwell Hardness, Ultrasonic test, among others, and found them to be all over the scale in their density and grain structure. But that was also the technology of the time. PM is a more current process, and as Gasman stated, being developed and expanded to a broader area of the steel market. What you will have with a "PM" rod is a lot more consistency in it's manufacture, and that should mean a more reliable part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Is it more reliable than a billet rod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 After checking into the deal with crates in the Sunoco series, here is what I found out. Most people in the series are running the 9 to 1 engines. Everyone played follow the leader and bought the engines from builders who consistantly ran up front. This created a high demand for a few engine builders and the prices went sky high. Now some guys are building a concept for about $10,000 that has the same or more HP as many of the high end 9 to 1's. However, if you run concept, you are not awarded any points. In an attempt to get more racers on the track, Sunoco has come up with this crate engine option. Sunoco has required these two guys that supply the engines to post surety bonds that the crates performance will not exceed the 9 to 1's. Thats the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I like the Sunoco rule. It opens new doors without closing old ones. By the way, TxTom is a metallurgist and he's on my team. Good for me, Bad for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Bandit are you trying to lead us to believe that you use PM rods in your SLM motors? Just kidding of course. Txtom, thanks for the interesting info. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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