“Budget classes” tires in

[MikePeters95]

Wanted to get some LSSZ input as you guys have been around this longer than I’ve been converting oxygen to carbon dioxide  

With tires being one of the highest consumable costs and barriers to repeated entry, what are your thoughts and who would be interested in running a street radial designed for heat with little to no fall off for the spec tire for some of the classes aimed at reasonable and affordable budgets and youth development?  

These are based here in Houston, and I’ve been working behind the scenes studying and getting feedback from new oval guys or guys looking from the outside in asking them what’s keeping them from getting involved. 

As we all know the AR and Hoosier offerings have pretty decent fall off after one evening leading to a decent advantage for those who can buy new tires every race which is demotivating to a lot of folks.  If that was solved with a tire that lasted nearly all season without major fall off and was priced under the AR/Hoosier stuff, would YOU be interested in running that tire?

Pretty sure this could work for the Legacy / Eco Stock / Legends / Budget classes but figured I’d throw this out in here and see what opinions you guys had since off-season is pretty fresh and a lot of tracks haven’t locked in their official plans for 2023.  These would work on anything from a Legends car, Legacy, Eco Stock, Pure Stock/Street Stock/Panther Cruiser/Bootlegger/Bomber etc.  Will shrink the traction circle compared to a slick, or grooved slick making mistakes lose more time on track, cars slide a bit more making setup less crucial, and making the cars have to be driven smoother and more committed which IMO will create better actual side by side racing while also cutting costs and consumables by an order of magnitude.  Also reached out to Cooper/Goodyear and they’re exploring some products and which brand would work best, but Valino was extremely interested right off the bat, so I figured let’s make a post in some racer pages and get some actual racer feedback then pass it along to some tracks and see if they care about driver feedback and cost cutting to create a more sustainable series for some of the classes. 

I can get some of these to test pretty easily next time there is a test day, if the community speaks up and says this is a good idea and it’s sensible and purposeful to explore it.  There is a high likelihood I can get these for low three digit, maybe even two digit prices per tire in stock here in Houston.  

https://www.valinotires.com/product-page/greeva-08d-360tw-205-50r15

[TBone]

I'm all for a reasonable spec tire. I used to race Eco Stock, and am looking seriously at the new Bootlegger class.

I also do amateur endurance road racing. Our tire rule is a DOT tire with a 180 or greater tread wear rating. There are numerous tires out there that will do 16 hours of road racing in a weekend, and still have enough left for practice at the next race. Most of them will fall off after 10-12 hours, but it's not dramatic.

We do a 14-hour race every year on the Daytona road course.  Other than one year when we cut a tire, we've never had to change a tire during the race. Same with COTA, where we typically do two separate 8-HR races on Saturday and Sunday. No appreciable fall off from Saturday to Sunday. So it's very doable.

[top_shelf_12]

When CC Speedway was at it's best, at least in my lifetime, each of the weekly local classes ALL ran on DOT street tires. They ran a Mini Stock, Bomber/Pure Stock and a Street Stock class and had 15+ in each. Slowly but surely they started going to a race tire and any of those classes were lucky to hit double digits and now CCS is an asphalt circle with depressing overgrowth and just a sad memory. 

When the EMod class started at the dirt track here, they ran a spec Southwest Speed tire that was around $75 as opposed to a $150 or more race tire. Now asphalt pull offs are common in multiple classes and seem to be working well as they are anywhere from $25-50/tire as opposed to the $200+ they are charging for race tires now and seem to be pretty durable under normal circumstances. Our EMod, Pure Stock and Factory Stock classes all run them now and each class is in the 12-15 per night minimum and of course Factory Stock is one of the largest classes in our region. I'm starting to fear they are going to price themselves out pretty soon and Factory Stock is far from a beginner, economical class now as rollers are $10k and above, $1-5k shock packages, purpose built chassis etc but as of right now, they're in demand and there are plenty building great cars and people paying big $$$ to get them. The asphalt pull offs are probably the most affordable part of Factory Stock racing. I think in our region, you probably see more big money races for Factory Stock than Sport Mods, Modified or Late Models.

[NickHolt]

The well-funded teams hated it, but the vast majority of our teams (back in the days when I was NASCAR Chief Steward at San Antonio Speedway) loved it.

It was a strictly-enforced, one-tire-a-week rule. 

The competition tightened up a bunch and the car counts increased in every class. Seems once everyone was in equal rubber, the high-dollar teams lost their big-money advantage and the little guys now had a fighting chance instead of a guaranteed loss. 

I won't go into details here, but the trick is in the enforcement of the rule. I probably have saved those rules somewhere in my outdates, useless racing files. 

Here's a guarantee:  The money teams will throw a fit over a one-tire rule because their big advantage evaporates with the stroke of the rule-makers pen. 

This rule works better at asphalt tracks than dirt tracks. 

Nick

 

[top_shelf_12]

Definitely agree with DOT tires working better on asphalt. I think the only dirt class running a street tire these days are the 4 cylinder cars. The asphalt pull offs translate well, at least in South Texas and seem to have an advantage over a spec tire with most track conditions since we rarely see a heavy tacky track but we can take the recent Shootout in Corpus. Racing was great across the board and most were on pull offs. Late Models are a whole other beast, Sport Mods had an option on which race tire they used and that is based on a sanctioning body. Mini Mod I'm not sure what they're running and that class just started this season so they're still trying to find their legs. Pure Stocks and Factory Stock races were excellent and ran pull offs. EMod winner started mid pack and ran down the leaders and won without wasting her tires. Now pull offs on asphalt don't seem to hold up as well but the dirt drivers jump at the chance to get the pull offs. I wonder how a Sport Mod would run on pull offs? Only say that since it seems tires are just one way to make money for the sanctioning body when you can get the same tire/wheel a little cheaper without a certain stamp.

[RodneyRodriguez]

When we ran Towel City retreads at Austin they were great and cheap! Used em in DCRST .. same effect.

[ron.brown11]

This 1 thing is the secret to racing more affordably & competitively. As Nick said above, and I said in a thread 2-3 weeks ago, tires are the great equalizer. That negates virtually all of the high dollar chassis', motors, & shock packages. If you can find a recap tire or a spec tire that would be great, because of the consistency. Take offs are good too, but different tracks run different tires. Now, are 1 track's take off softer than another? While living in Tucson, occasionally I would go run a winter show or 2 at I-10 Speedway in Blythe, CA. The mods could only run Hoosier treaded take offs, that had come from their late models. Oh yeah, a mod couldn't even have it mounted unless 75% of the tread already gone. They were trying to entice more out of towners to run there, and Blythe is kinda in the middle of nowhere, and it kept the costs down. The first time I went to run there, I thought that I could run the Goodyear slicks that we ran on at TRP. The race promoter walked me down to the tire trailer, and told the head guy to give me 6 used tires for the mod class. I ran 3 more shows there on those same tires. When those tires were cold, the pucker factor could get a bit intense. I found that out in qualifying, after spinning from the exit of four, all the way to the wall in turn 1. Surprisingly once good and hot, they stuck pretty good. Had they not given me those tires, the tire shed was selling them for $20 each. Most of the mods there also ran on the SRL Touring Modified Series, so there were some pretty exotic cars there. I qualified 22 of 26, do mostly to said spin I referenced above. At the end of 50 laps, I finished 5th. Nick saw my car I think at a swap meet held at SAS, and it wasn't any state of the art car. Tires are the best equalizer!!

[HiTech]

1 hour ago, RodneyRodriguez said:

When we ran Towel City retreads at Austin they were great and cheap! Used em in DCRST .. same effect.

  AFTER THE 1989  season  frank carpenter went to looking for a cheaper tire for our mini stock class . no  one was running a cheaper tire  in texas that we knew of mostly mccreary  tires or eagleslicks ..  . both cost . texas pro sedans  was running mcceary and so did we at our local class   up til 89 .. those tires were not cheap except in todays inflation ... the cost was running drivers off  i think they were 60 bucks  . i could not  afford many  new tires that year pocket national bank  got me to the races  but finishing in the front gave us food for the week and paid my way the next week races ... .. SO FRANK  set out to find us something cheaper .. and he found a new  tire distributor way up north  being our class was run by the drivers   he had  their blessing in  finding a tire ..the new company was  TOWEL CITY  RETREADS ... WHO ever heard of such a thing  as retreads then called recaps ..we thought that was crazy and first thought was no way jose ..but htose guys promised we would not be disapointed and they were gald someone in texas would try them out  three sets for free  so three cars could test them with a garranty  i they did not hold up  any money spent would be returned  or replacing the tires  after words .so who could lose .at first  we blisterd the tires  not know what ar pressures and such to run .. then we found out those tires were directional and those  were the best tires imo  . i ran two season  on three of them .. we even ran two cars at sas  against  the mccreary  .and beat them in the end the tires got better and better with heat  each lap  was less stearing input ... but  hit any dirt on the track  u were in trouble ........  all the tires were shipped to us and we sold them to the teams  at cost no profit . and not one of us even measured a tire for our cars till everyone else had the tires they wanted  just to be fair ........ i turned   and others turned the same lap times on recaps at cc and at tme faster during the race ....the best thing was everyone was on the same tire ..we never tried them on dirt ..i saw  those tires on your dcrst  cars rod .. those tires had  come along ways in grooving  and handling  over 1990and 91 ..worth the price ..

[top_shelf_12]

I forgot about the recaps, think TALMS ran them for awhile now too. I think most of the dirt tracks allowing pull offs have a durometer rule too so I imagine it is a certain compound tire to meet that rule. I'm far from a tire expert but the beginning of the end for CCS anyways, was allowing race tires in and around that time, asphalt tracks were dwindling anyways and a lot of the drivers had already transferred to dirt. Won't get into the dirt vs asphalt debate but unfortunately, HMP is the only asphalt track in Texas that could accommodate the Saturday night heroes and the next nearest track is in Mobile, Alabama, I believe.  It's very sad because most of my early exposure to racing was at two tracks that are difficult to see currently and one that I don't think even exists anymore (Longhorn Speedway). I only made it to CTS/THR (which i know is gone) a few times and there was just something missing or maybe I'm spoiled that the dirt tracks near me are just that good, not to disrespect the asphalt guys/gals. Even on the dirt side I'm starting to get concerned about the rising costs. Look through any classified group and check out the cost of an used Factory Stock or contact one of the chassis builders for a quote and then an engine builder and a shock specialist. That so called affordable, entry level class is probably on par with an asphalt Late Model team. I think these dirt tracks need an EMod or Pure Stock type class. Don't get me wrong, Factory Stocks are a premier class from a fan's POV but make no bones about it, it's a top tier race class too and think it's starting to be marketed as such. I think same is true for asphalt tracks. I'm sure fans love Late Models, Pro Mods/Trucks but you need a Stock class to get that guy or gal a chance to race without putting up 2nd or 3rd mortgages to get a car and competitive equipment. 

[HiTech]

  JUST LIKE ANY CLASS  they start here and then end there . my son sold his car and just about to sell the motor to my brother for a loss which is ok on that  to put in  his 68 camero that is being restored .  one of the main reasons  was cost   if u do not have 15  to 20thousand  plus in a factory stock  u are slow ..   he needed to up grade the motor 2500 plus  he needed 800 dallor shocks just to start plus other items . every year the factory stocks cost has gone way up in just three years . u can see  some drivers taking and moving thier fatory stocks down to purestock  ..dont know the rules on that class  but it must be cheaper .. local  i think  four or five plus fatory stock racers  are in that class  ...so dirt track racing is no different... .. and the factory stock today are super stocks some have 10,000 i the motors alone if not having to change motors twice in a season  and those are in the  5 grand up  price .. ....that wont last to many more years and who knows what rule will be for next season ..  and the process will start all over .ITS RACING FOLKS AND IT WILL NEVER CHANGE / START OUT CHEAPER . AND WORK YOUR WAY UP FROM THERE ..WHAT GOES UP MUST COME DOWN FITS THE BILL .... TIRES  that use to be the biggest cost . run a home built car  with  a stock motor and no fancy shocks  brakes  upper control arms or set back cages .. i find those cars make better dirt cars now with every track running dry .. .

[RodneyRodriguez]

Recaps were best as I mentioned. You could run them for weeks. We had a way heavy nova and I couldn't drive straight to save my ass and those tires were spot on. Hard as a rock. I do remember when Cody made the switch drivers wanted the costs cut, he cut the costs... drivers response, these tires suck we are 1/2 a second slower lol.

For a real entry level class something like those would be great. Side not from time to time you could throw those recaps on the dwarf on a dry slick track and that thing ran like a stolen cop car.

[top_shelf_12]

HiTech you're spot on. TJ, Jerry and Jamie I know for sure dropped down and Caitlin's old car is there with Bobby Jack driving it now and Stevie III car may have been a Factory Stock at some point but not sure. Their rules from what I can tell, are similar to the old CCS Bombers and is a great "affordable" class and comparable to an EMod, just in a full bodied car. Very little modifications allowed. I know, racing is hardly affordable and most will not make money doing it, but you shouldn't have to spend $20-30k just to get on the track. I know the flip side to that argument is if you can't afford it, don't do it. Thankfully the classes like Pure Stocks, EMod, Eco Stock, Thunder cars, etc do exist and growing. If I ever do get a car, it would have to be a Pure Stock or EMod. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by top_shelf_12

[HiTech]

3 hours ago, top_shelf_12 said:

HiTech you're spot on. TJ, Jerry and Jamie I know for sure dropped down and Caitlin's old car is there with Bobby Jack driving it now and Stevie III car may have been a Factory Stock at some point but not sure. Their rules from what I can tell, are similar to the old CCS Bombers and is a great "affordable" class and comparable to an EMod, just in a full bodied car. Very little modifications allowed. I know, racing is hardly affordable and most will not make money doing it, but you shouldn't have to spend $20-30k just to get on the track. I know the flip side to that argument is if you can't afford it, don't do it. Thankfully the classes like Pure Stocks, EMod, Eco Stock, Thunder cars, etc do exist and growing. If I ever do get a car, it would have to be a Pure Stock or EMod. 

 i was to build new car it wont be a dirt car  .but  it owuld be racing dirt  ..good old asphault would be the way to go  .tracks are all  trying to run dry slick now  .....  jessies old car was better  on  dirt than what he has now ...we miss that old car  ten years took its toll .

[HiTech]

Just now, HiTech said:

 i was to build new car it wont be a dirt car  .but  it owuld be racing dirt  ..good old asphault would be the way to go  .tracks are all  trying to run dry slick now  .....  jessies old car was better  on  dirt than what he has now ...we miss that old car  ten years took its toll .

 .. I FOUND THE FANS do not go to see how fast a lap time is ..they go to see  good  close racing .  in 1989  going into 1990 we took all the racing parts  off and out of our motors and put on  recaps  to build the class back up ..  yes we did not have the power under the hood  we were used to  .. but cheaper tires and cheaper motors made for some good close racing .. u just had to hold the peddle down longer and get on it sooner   but we  really didnt lose lap times  .. i still  ran a 16  flat  +and sometimes a 15 ,8  .same as our mccreary tires and   more  horsepower .. we actually created a better average speed around the track   once u got the car moving  on stock motors and recaps .. if u had the right set up  the recaps never faded and got better with each lap ..... so  we did  not lose anything   . and saved alot of money  ..  that made the class grow and more folks in the stands .

[top_shelf_12]

Agree with you again. Speed is cool to watch and all but if there's nothing but follow the leader or field spread out with no battles, it gets pretty boring in the stands. Fans probably don't realize a quarter or half a second difference, but they notice low car counts and boring races. A slower, more even field is better than fast boring races, especially at a Friday/Saturday night weekly track.

[MikePeters95]

I love that in this forum, this did exactly as I intended.  I threw something out there, and a conversation happened, an open minded conversation with real world feedback.

On Facebook it just got dumped on with a diatribe about "We're not changing anything" from a series that lost 30% car count in ever single class so far, and still hasn't published points for a season that ended over a month ago.

I'm hoping some of these great ideas are actually looked at and I can have a place to continue to race at, solely because, other people are coming to race there consistently.

I'll be honest, the trucks are fun but the $700 tire bill per race is pretty stupid and pointless.  It was also infuriating when we all showed up for race two with no tires.  I intentionally didn't buy them from Day knowing the track made money off them.  Some sort of cost control measure would be nice.

The used AR 970 is a novel idea, but it requires people sell them tires that are of the same condition.  While it would be neat to support the program, I don't make enough money to give my lightly used tires up and have nothing to practice on.  By the time I sold something they'd easily have 100+ laps on them and potentially be flat spotted.  I think the hope is (if they've even thought this far) is that 4 classes giving 20% of their used tires is enough to supply one class.

The Legends/Legacy/EcoStock tire costs are absolutely stupid for entry level classes.  It's also frustrating to take friends interested and sell them on a Pro Truck knowing the real costs that I'm not even hitting needed to run competitively, and the other classes with the smaller sized 4 cylinder cars, and front wheel drive cars, just don't interest anyone I've had looking into racing asphalt oval. 

Side note, if you get offended by my friends not being excited about 4 cylinder scaled down cars, don't get mad at me, just evaluate yourself and what you're getting mad about please.  Saw that on Facebook, be better.  

Anyways glad to see some good feedback, hopefully someone reads it but I doubt it.

 

[RodneyRodriguez]

Here's something to think about that I have said for years in pavement racing and something that needs to change. People say why 2 days, practice day, all day race day etc.

I'll tell you why, to sell tires. These larger teams need fresh rubber as often as possible. Pensacola for example, I stayed right near the track and I was having coffee and there were cars on track and I don't drink coffee after 11am. Oddly enough this Hoosier tire shortage? No sign of it there. Heard some rumbles of tire stamps and lot #'s, it's a racket. 

[TBone]

7 hours ago, MikePeters95 said:

The Legends/Legacy/EcoStock tire costs are absolutely stupid for entry level classes.  

 

Speaking only to Eco stocks, I disagree. When I was racing, I rotated the tires every race. A $600 set of Dunlop Direzzas lasted 10-12 races. And they were plenty capable of running up front.

That said, I think they should add a minimum 200TW rating to the tire rule. A 15", 55-series, 200TW tire is not crazy expensive and would last at least a whole season, maybe 2 seasons. If they dropped to a 50 series sidewall with a 200TW requirement, the tire choices would be huge. 205/50-15 is a very popular size in road racing thanks to the Miatas.

[HiTech]

6 hours ago, RodneyRodriguez said:

Here's something to think about that I have said for years in pavement racing and something that needs to change. People say why 2 days, practice day, all day race day etc.

I'll tell you why, to sell tires. These larger teams need fresh rubber as often as possible. Pensacola for example, I stayed right near the track and I was having coffee and there were cars on track and I don't drink coffee after 11am. Oddly enough this Hoosier tire shortage? No sign of it there. Heard some rumbles of tire stamps and lot #'s, it's a racket. 

 we all  know racers are their own  worst enemy .. i want  this and that .i can aford it  if u cant so what  ..in two years or less u lose car counts just like the factory stocks are and will do  over the next season or so .. cost is to high .... just for some who dont know i raced my own cars for three season  ..yep mini stock  .but those were not cheap to run either .... .then the real cost came along . my son  and the cost of running  at cc sas and kyle and a time of two on dirt  ....i wanted racing springs  .but glad they stayed factory  .... the  dot tires  lasted along time . . lucky my brother inlaw  in   rockport    owns a tire store and figured out the best  all around tires to run .. we won alot of races with his infomation .. joshua won 29 races one season and a championship  on tires my brother in law came up with .. and they were legal ..