College Students killed pulling race car

[racerx]

Is this the same competition Bradley and FSAEracer do at A&M and UTSA?

 

Man, that's two wecks pulling race cars this week. Stuff like this happens usually in threes. Be careful. God bless those families.

 

Three Minnesota engineering students remained hospitalized Wednesday after their van crashed in western Michigan, killing three of their friends and spurring into action a passing Wisconsin National Guard convoy headed to a disaster drill.

 

Authorities said the van of eight twenty-somethings from Minnesota State, Mankato, was towing a trailer that held their prized project: a Formula series race car they had built over 10 months and planned to show off this week at the Society of Automotive Engineers competition in Detroit. One school official described the car as their pride and joy.

 

Police said the trailer fishtailed Tuesday afternoon on eastbound Interstate 94 in Berrien County, Michigan causing the driver to lose control of the van, which crossed the median and rolled several times into oncoming westbound traffic.

 

Two tractor trailers were unable to avoid hitting it, Chikaming Township Police Officer George Knoll said. A truck driver who witnessed the crash told The Herald-Palladium of St. Joseph it was the most horrific thing he'd ever seen.

 

Major Steve Brewer's Wisconsin National Guard convoy of eight vehicles carrying medically trained soldiers and triage equipment was within a half-mile of the wreck when it happened.

 

"They were there within seconds and began lifesaving measures. All three of these people probably would have died if we hadn't performed lifesaving procedures immediately," Brewer said Wednesday. One of those treated did eventually die, he said.

 

The unit, the 54th Civil Support Team from Madison, Wis., was headed to a training exercise at Fort Carson, Mich., with the 51st Civil Support Team of the Michigan National Guard.

 

"We knew that there would be a time when we would have to act, we just didn't think it would be on our way to an exercise," Brewer said.

 

Authorities said Jamie Schlachter, 23, of Rochester, Minn.; Wesley Loutsch, 21, of Remsen, Iowa; and Chad Wilson, 20, of Rose Creek, Minn., died in the wreck.

 

Scott Rector, 22, of Vadnais Heights, Minn., was listed in critical condition at Lakeland Hospital in St. Joseph, Mich., on Wednesday. Ryan Schommer, 23, of Brooklyn Park, Minn., was in serious condition, and Benjamin Gruezner, 27, of Mankato, Minn., was in fair condition, hospital spokeswoman Danielle Trapp said.

 

Student Michael Tichy, 23, and faculty adviser Gary Mead, 27, both of Mankato, Minn., were treated and released.

 

None of the nine people in a second van headed to the competition were injured. Brewer said they were so traumatized that he didn't immediately realize they had not actually been in the crash.

 

"They were in psychological shock," he said. "So we put up those emergency management tents for them, so they didn't have to watch us work on their friends, and to get them out of the sun."

 

School spokesman Michael Cooper said the university is making arrangements to fly those students home.

 

He said the southern Minnesota school is struggling with the deaths, and was holding a support meeting Wednesday at the student union for employees and students. But the school's graduation was Saturday, and not many students are around anymore, he said.

 

Most of the students in the crash were seniors.

 

"We really are devastated by it," Cooper said. "We're in shock, and obviously our hearts go out to the families."

 

Cooper said the Society of Automotive Engineers has asked the school for 150 school decals they could put on the cars at the annual competition in memory of the dead students.

 

The students had been planning, designing and building their single-seat Formula series car since August, often spending 25 to 30 hours on it each week.

[Josh42]

Thats a bad deal just picturing a van flipping then seeing 2 tractor trailers hit it is just horrible.

[turbotoddie]

Yes, this is the same competition that Bradley R. is participating.

 

A friend sent me the link and until I read it, I thought it might have been our A&M guys for a second. Sad for the families and students of that school but I was relieved it wasn't the guys I know. I know things happen, but Dr. McDermott, faculty advisor for the A&M bunch, is extra sensitive to safety issues when it involves his students.

 

later

Todd Farris

[JamesHigdon]

UTSA's team did go to the competition this year but couldnt compete due to funding. We had received some snipets of news about this while in detroit but never any of the details listed here and that individuals had died, this is the first time in FSAE's almost three decade history something like this has happened and hopefully the last, it should be known that all the teams showed that Mankato was in their thoughts by running the teams logo and number on their vehicles. Many of the teams tow with 15 passnger vans and large box trailers, a very dangerous combination, and many of these teams most likely will not again, I know we will now be making alternative plans.

[Hartracn19]

Please forgive my ignorance, but why do you state that towing with a 15 passenger van and large box trailers is a very dangerous combination?

 

Lloyd

TPS #19

[Chris Taylor]

Because 20/20 did an expose on how unsafe those horrible roling coffins are, and we all know what a credible group that is !

 

Kind of like how those police cruisers are unsafe and prone to explode when you weld a tire iron to the rear bumper, with the pointy-end aimed at the gas tank.

[1-Crew]

Those kids may have done everything exactly right, and still ended up in a horrible crash but there are inherent problems in 15 passenger vans (regardless of who reported it). A 15 passenger van with 15 passengers has a high center of gravity and will be prone to rollover in a accident avoidance manuveur.

 

It does point out the need to check all the basics before towing..

 

Check air pressure in the tow vehicle and the trailer.

 

Check the trailer weight as normally loaded to make sure you have at least 10% or the total trailer weight on the hitch.

 

In Texas, trailers with a loaded weight 4500 lbs or more are required to have trailer brakes. Many other states make this a requirement at 3000 lbs.

[abrungot]

I have a good friend that was a camp advisor for summer camp.. Near Huston..

 

She was driving one.. when a tire blew... rolled over twice.. and sent every one of the 12 people to the hospital..

2.. will never walk again..

 

HIGH Center of GRAVITY is the biggie..

[JamesHigdon]

Mr. Taylor and Lloyd, I didnt mean to come across as cocky and condemn 15 passenger vans towing box trailers. In relation to FSAE, many teams tow thousands of miles on some of the worst roads in the country in very bad weather; to add to that, many FSAE vehicles are towed by students with marginal trailering experience at best and in my expericne a 15 passenger van's high CG, skinny tires, and poor weight distribution cause problems. On our 3,500 mile trip this past week we came upon 2 highway rollovers one of which was a 15 passenger van which someone simply lost control of and flipped into a median. Our team is one of the lowest budget teams and a 15 pass. van would be the cheapest way to transport our team, but last year we had two blowouts, one on our trailer and one on our chase vehicle and the risk had we had either of those blowouts on a van is simply not worth it to me.

 

James Higdon

[Rookie49]

The problem isn't the vehicles, the problem is that you have people who think that it is no different than driving a minivan and don't have the right kind of driving experience driving them. You cannot treat them as a car. 18 wheelers have a pretty high COG also, you have to be trained and licensed to drive them. I feel for those students, their family, and there school. I hope that lessons can be learned out of this tragedy. Our church had one roll over a few years ago because of a blowout, but if they weren't driving 75 mph with an inexperienced driver it may not have happened. People neede to realize that driving these takes respect and knowledge of the vehicle, and people need to quit just putting whatever driver is available in them.

[Crazyhorse]

gotta agree with johnny-i see these u haul type places that rent to people who have no business being in these vehicles...you don't want to stay close to them on the highway...a year ago i almost got killed because of some lame brain that had no idea how to park one,let alone drive it...

[JamesHigdon]

Rookie49, I dont really have any idea how you could say that the higher number of wrecks, specifically towing wrecks, with large fullsize vans isnt directly related to the vehicles. The simple physics behind a fullsize van is that they have high CGs, even higher CGs when loaded with people because of the seating position of the people, narrow tires, narrow track widths for their height and typically stiff suspensions. All these issues lead to an inherently unstable vehicle, that this inherently unstable vehicle is sold as a tow vehicle/passenger vehicle to the general public is not the general publics fault. Any vehicle that can not do 75 mph and sustain a blowout while allowing your average driver to regain cand sustain ontrol is a poorly designed vehicle and should not be sold to the general public at all. Passenger vans are sold for a specific purpose to a specific market, when used for that specific purpose by that specific market they result in higher then normal death rates. I have sustained numerous blowouts at speed and on a trailer at speed and have never lost control of my vehcile, but this was not due to my substantial driving skill, it was due to the fact that i was driving a well designed and safe vehicle. Passenger vans, when looked at in simple physical terms, are poor choices for towwing or moving people.

[tqj3]

FSAERacer-

Driver "training" in the United States is extremely poor, and the testing of those drivers is virtually nonexistent.

 

Despite this, drivers with little experience of and understanding of the things you mention, such as higher CGs, buy and drive trucks as family station wagons. A large number of these do, indeed, crash and cause deaths, nearly always due to driver inexperience and lack of ability.

 

Are the big 15-passenger vans top heavy? Of course. On the other hand, one of the perks occasionally offered to drivers who attend the Bob Bondurant school in Arizona is a chance to ride in the bone stock 15-passenger van, fully loaded with said passengers, as Bob blasts around the road course. I've been there, and, believe me, it's an E-ticket ride.

 

Should better driving training be required? You bet. Is it gonna happen? Not a chance; cars don't vote, and people do. Besides, the gospel according to Ralph Nader is that any accident is the fault of the vehicle, one which was probably designed from the outset to kill people. (The fact that Ralph has absolutely no background in auto safety or engineering is so lost on the media that he will probably always be seen as some kind of "expert" on the subject.)

 

Learn to drive. We aren't born knowing anything, and have to learn everything. If you haven't put in a lot of time learning something, you don't know it. While some people are born with more of a talent for it than others, driving well isn't "instinctive" or "automatic," and every 16-year-old with a driver's license isn't Dale Earnhardt, or even Dale Earnhardt, Jr., though nearly all of them seem to think so.

 

Bottom line: soccer moms don't have any business driving a Suburban or an Explorer, let alone a 15-passenger van, and neitther do nearly all college students.

[racerx]

Bottom line: soccer moms don't have any business driving a Suburban or an Explorer, let alone a 15-passenger van

 

ATTN Soccer Mom's: Please address all hate mail to Mr. T.Q. Jones Esq, c/o TQ Jones Management School for Public Relations and Political Correctness, tqj@mindspring.com

[JamesHigdon]

Ok, arguing with someone in this context is at very best silly, and i really didnt intend to start a debate about 15 passneger vans. Anyone with knowledge of CG, basic physical relationships between trailers and tow vehicles and the road/weather conditions that where present in this situation can see that while not the worst choice a box van wasnt the best choice either. Keep in mind that these wernt "nearly all college students" and they certianly wernt "soccer moms", and while one can read the article and assume they made all kinds of other mistakes anyone with the knowledge listed above knows that whatever happened the vehicle they where in certianly didnt help.

[Rookie49]

FSAE RACER,

 

Not to continue the argument, just to somewhat clarify and explain-

There is basically nothing that is made that is dangerous. It is when we operate it that it becomes dangerous. The more dangerous or risky the operation the more training you should have. A space shuttle sitting on the runway at Edwards isn't dangerous. Put it on a couple of fuel tanks and fire it into outer space, it becomes a wee bit dangerous, thus the operators of it are highly trained. As to your dissertation on COG and physics, well I think that most people reading this forum understand the difference between the physics of a cargo van and a say a race car for instance. The simple fact is that anyone can drive these vehicles quite safely even in unforeseen circumstances if they just know the limitations of the vehicle and there own limitations and stay within them. If that means that when used properly the vehicle no longer suits your needs then you should be looking for another mode of transportation.

[tqj3]

Well put, Rookie49.

 

And Larry, "political correctness" keeps us from talking about, and solving, problems.

[Hartracn19]

Well, I appreciate the answer to my question. I also think this has been a great, ah, discussion...

 

I own and use one of these vans to haul the race car, and that is why I asked. I assumed the answer was the high COG, but was raised to ask, not assume.

 

I guess I never really thought about it, because I have always tried to respect the equipment I use, whether a saw, a car, a welder, etc. I have never (well almost never) driven the van like I do my race car, and there would be no point in driving the race car like I do the van.

 

Rookie49 put it well in that there are limitations to what each "tool" can do, and the capability of the user.

 

I guess the answer to the question I asked was really that simple. I think I was looking at it too deeply.

 

Anyway, prayers are going out for all of those involved in the accident listed at the start of this topic, and for their family and friends. Thanks again for the insight.

 

Lloyd

TPS #19

[racerx]

And Larry, "political correctness" keeps us from talking about, and solving, problems.

 

I am far from the most PC person...but, where did the soccer moms driving 15 passenger vans come from!!!??? To make a point by throwing out slurs to an uninvolved group seemed very humorous to me... like you took a page from Vicinte Fox...

[tqj3]

Larry-

You may not have noticed, but the 15-passenger van is a popular choice for transporting kids from school to various private gymnastics, cheerleading and other after-school care and training businesses. The drivers are usually also instructors or owners.

My point is that most people (men and women) in America aren't really qualified to drive a compact sedan; they aren't taught to drive, they're taught to aim. But that same "driver's" license allows them to own and drive a Suburban or a 15-passenger van.

Both hartracin19 and rookie49 made my point, and probably better: you have to understand the machine you're operating, and operate it safely. These big vans aren't just used for local runs; a number of colleges use them to transport smaller sports teams, such as the cross-country team, to meets.

Wonder how well-trained those drivers are?

[racerx]

TQ, I've had to do the hamster dance to avoid speeding soccer moms on cell phones in SUV's. I have some funny stuff to say, but it's not appropriate on this thread. I think this and the 43 Fuller team accident made us all think about being more careful, no matter what our choice of tow vehicle. I know I have slowed down. I'm just glad our guys made it up and back OK. Can't imagine being the parent of one who left and didn't come back.

[tqj3]

Larry-

I certainly agree with you about how hard it would be to be the parent of a kid who didn't come back. And you're right about soccer moms (remind me to tell you the one that got me the most hate mail) and cell phones and SUVs... and the fact that talking about it will get you in trouble.

We lost a racer in Louisiana once, killed by some drunk moron as he was on the way back to the motel after winning a national race. Those are the ironic ones, the ones that prove we're a heck of a lot safer on the track.

I've always said, even a bad racing driver is better than most of the drivers on the street. Maybe that's why we get riled about accidents that shouldn't happen, and people who wouldn't have been hurt except for the fact they were sitting on their safety belts...