Mark Pinson Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 What is the reasoning behind Pro trucks having to run automatic trans and Gm rearends. It seems way more expensive than a saginaws. USST trucks run standard trans and quick change rearends. I see the point on running the crate engine but the other two make no sense to me. I would like to see all trucks running the 604 crate in the future. We would like to run with you guys along with about 6-7 other trucks at Thunderhill and HMP if only our rules were more alike or some kind of weight penalty to even the trucks out. Could you imagine the truck counts if we were able to get all trucks running together. WOW USST has Bristol and Memphis on the schedule this year and I know all the Pro Trucks would love to run there. Lets get the discussion going and maybe the track owners will be watching. Look at the series Neil Upchurch has built (TPS) on giving all types of 4-cylinder cars a chance to race. He has rules for just about every make of car to make it fair for everyone. If you have an opinion please post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I agree. Neil has put together a great program that allows cars of different performance levels to run together and be competitive. I ran the TPS series at THR in 07...that track is a blast! I run the USST series and from my own experience, I ran with the Pro trucks when they came to Wichita Falls last year. I thought that race was pretty close given the fact we did nothing to equalize the field. Does anyone have any idea what the lap times were at Wichita Falls? I would REALLY LIKE to see the same type of rules so that I can return the favor and run with the Pro Trucks in Houston and Kyle!! I also ran at Memphis last year in November and we had 23 trucks from 4 different truck series. A crate motor truck actually run the race, At the race USST inspected each truck and documented what type of chassis, engine, shocks, hubs, brakes, etc. each truck was running. Eric Caudell, the USST promoter, has been working over the winter with the ASA late model series and the trucks series' from I-70, USST North, Nashville, and ARTS to come up with a standard ruleset that will allow all of these trucks to run together at the USST "Challenge" events that are held with the ASA late model series events at Memphis, Bristol, Nashville, Iowa Speedway, and O'reilly Raceway Park in Indianapolis. Some of the equalizers they have been looking at include similar approaches TPS has taken by looking at left side weight, overall weight and a standard tire. They have also looked at the size of the track and how it relates to the performance advantage a coil-over vs. big spring truck has on the larger tracks. I think the big challenge is how do we make the trucks equal without costing people a ton of money to modify what they currently have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I have no dog in this hunt but I agree on the transmission. Ive seen these guy run these automatics all year but at a cost higher than a 3spd saginaw. I know that at one time someone sold a direct bolt in 9" rear end housing. That would seem to be better in the long run than carring around 1 or 2 complete rear assemblys in the trailer every week. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemdk Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I've been talking with Eric from USST for about a year now on this very same topic. We came up with the fact that the Pro Trucks could convert over to the USST rules gradually. We would start off with the manual transmission and 10" tires. We would take the 602 crate and put the larger carb on them and have a weight break. Every year we would add something else like the 604 crate and then goto 112" wheel base. I agree totally that having the extra trucks to draw from would bring the Pro Truck class to a totally new level. I think if we can get the pro truck owners on board with this then we can take it to the track promoters for the 2010 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 txfireman911 and redriver While I sincerely do appreciate your laudatory comments about me and the Texas Pro Sedans, you need to know the keys to TPS's success: 1. Continuity in 34 years of operation. 2. Making rules changes only when competitive equality and/or safety concerns dictate. 3. Consistent officiating. Neil Upchurch Race & Administrative Director Texas Pro Sedans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 . added to neils post number four five and so on ...the drivers have alot of respect for one another .does not matter how much money or lack of you have in your car ..the drivers and car owners and teams welcome you to join ..sometimes things happen out on the track .but 99 percent of the time its all done with that night .......... lalo and rico bbq ........ cant forget the race tracks tps run at ..tops ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I've been talking with Eric from USST for about a year now on this very same topic. We came up with the fact that the Pro Trucks could convert over to the USST rules gradually. We would start off with the manual transmission and 10" tires. We would take the 602 crate and put the larger carb on them and have a weight break. Every year we would add something else like the 604 crate and then goto 112" wheel base. I agree totally that having the extra trucks to draw from would bring the Pro Truck class to a totally new level. I think if we can get the pro truck owners on board with this then we can take it to the track promoters for the 2010 season. Just curious...have you put pen to paper regarding the costs of these gradual changes. 604 motor is rougly 3K more than a 602. Quick change rears aren't cheap - 9" floaters are already allowed in the Pro trucks. Wouldn't the change to a 112" wheelbase require a new chassis? I'm like racer61 - no dog in this hunt. However, I do know that the pro trucks are one of the more economical race vehicles to get into. Some of the changes being discussed in this thread would seem to change that. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundogC3 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Who has the most count? Make change's to the one's who have the least amount of truck's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck38 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Just because I'm afraid I'm doing something wrong, how much does everyone spend on their TH350's per year? I ran mine for 3 years and only changed the fluid twice in that time before I had problems. And even then it was trash in the valuebody or something about the value body was messed up but fixable. I still had it professionally rebuilt at a cost of $300 (paid cash) which seems pretty cheap to me for the number of races I had on it but maybe I'm wrong or got lucky with a good transmission. But I had 26 races on it when it was rebuilt. I have two transmissions and took my shot at rebuilding one with instructions I found on the Internet. The rebuild kit was $100 it took me the better part of a day because I was being careful since you always hear nightmares about how difficult they are, but it was a breeze and it worked fine. The problems I ended up having at Corpus were because my TCI torque converter was going bad and wasn't locking up properly at least according to the transmission shop. I'll give it to luck but I wasn't aware that other people were spending a lot of money on their transmissions. Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Pinson Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Quick changes are not mandatory for either LMST or USST. The goal in this conversation is to get to a point that all trucks can run together. It may not require any changes, but to the rules. Weight is the ultimate equilizer and lead is pretty cheap. That's all you need to make changes too. We own two USST/LMST trucks and I would have no problem adding lead to come run in Thunderhill or HMP. The racers need to gain the promotors (Eric Caudell, Mike Cooper, Mary Ann and the HMP management) trust that we will show up with 20-30 trucks and we will get the money and the dates. Back to switching parts, I have no desire to put an automatic trans in my truck when I can pick a saginaw up for $300.00 and never have to worry about it again. Josh Cournoyer at RRS was the truck to bet and he ran a ford 9 inch. USST runs at about a dozen tracks so a quick change is really the only way to go. I'm sure the Pro Trucks are welcome to all USST/LMST events. I believe between USST North and South there is probaly about 35 - 50 trucks. Someone come up with some weight rules and lets throw the idea around. There is no reason we cannot race together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracer Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I initially posted this under a "classifed" topic but wanted to post here as it applies to this discussion: I second txfireman 911. I have been doing a lot of research the truck series and there are a total of 3 seperate truck series in texas, TX trucks, LMST and USST. Its my understanding the LMST is the same as USST but I would prefer to run HMP and Thunderhill so I hate to invest in a TX Pro truck if they are going to be out dated in the next couple of years (assuming they go USST in that time frame). Hope to see HMS and Thunderhill go USST or at a minimum, apply weight breaks for the guys not running 604s, and allow the 604's in, because I will be there with another truck running. I also agree with SS in the fact that it is probably more expensive to convert a pro truck to the USST/LMST class but I guess I see the USST series growing and Pro Trucks, which I am assuming was designed to keep the ARTS truck running, slowly converting as some point. Would love to by a Pro Truck but again, considering the investment and the potential of the truck class moving to standard trans / 604's or USST ulimately running at HMP/Thunderhill, I am waiting to see what transpires over the next year. I also agree that the over costs and maintenance of the 602 is more affordable but I would like to see it more consistant amoung the truck series in TX before dropping to coin on a race truck. And thanks to all of those that try to keep everyone running and everyone happy. I do know that a major job in itself. Headed to HMP the weekend of March 14th and 15th to continue my research on the series and hope to maybe speak to someone there regarding this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 I initially posted this under a "classifed" topic but wanted to post here as it applies to this discussion: Since the two topics were identical, I merged them into this thread. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Pro Trucks: Chevy: 305 w/ Turbo350 (Can be pretty bullit proof) 602 Crate w/ Turbo 350 Ford: 302 w/ C4 (Can be pretty bullit proof) 602 Crate w/ Turbo 350 Dodge: 318 w/904 (Need to find someone that knows these real well or they puke fluid) 318 w/727 (Can be pretty bullit proof) 602 Crate w/ Turbo 350 All w/7.5 10 Bolt and I thought somewhere along the way we could run a Ford 9 inch? Now, here is what is interesting. SPEC trucks ran the sealed 602 w/ Powerglide and You could run direct-drive. Trucks from Mexico that are now cars run a Tremic T-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcellracing Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Road, Why is it you dont want to race a pro trucK? They are legal in both usst and pro trucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 ......and why are we 'discussing' a month before the 1st race? talking time was last october , now is racing time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlord Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 ......and why are we 'discussing' a month before the 1st race? talking time was last october , now is racing time. I was thinking the same thing while I was reading this thread.It is what it is this time of year!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemdk Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I think it's discussing early for next season. I don't anticipate anyone would be talking about it for this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've been talking with Eric from USST for about a year now on this very same topic. We came up with the fact that the Pro Trucks could convert over to the USST rules gradually. We would start off with the manual transmission and 10" tires. We would take the 602 crate and put the larger carb on them and have a weight break. Every year we would add something else like the 604 crate and then goto 112" wheel base. I agree totally that having the extra trucks to draw from would bring the Pro Truck class to a totally new level. I think if we can get the pro truck owners on board with this then we can take it to the track promoters for the 2010 season. Wouldn't going to a 112" wheelbase, relegate the Pro Trucks to having to buy a new chassis? I don't see that raising truck counts. I agree with Cameron, The transmission I ran last year has been raced for three years, with only fluid changes. I got a quote for a refresh of $300 - $350 from a tranny shop in Marble Falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracer Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Road, Why is it you dont want to race a pro trucK? They are legal in both usst and pro trucks. Not that I dont want to race a Pro Truck but I would hate to invest in one and the rules then allow a fabricated front clip, standard trans and 604. Also, I live in DFW and would prefer to run HMP and Thunderhill but I am only 2 hours from Red River so that track would be an option as well and I would think the Pro trucks, running a 602's vs. built/604's might be at a disadvantage but I could be wrong. Basically, when I do buy one I will need a platform I can work with for a while as I cant afford to buy to a new truck every year. I just know how fast chassis' can become old news quick but I do realize that does not necessarily mean they wont be competitive. However, I would actually like to see the Pro Truck class take off as I do think its probably overall cheeper but that comes from my very limited experience and you guys would know. Crazyhorse-I agree its a way too late to be making this decision but I am basically looking to 2010 and starting the research early to know what to look for when I do buy. Honestly, not that experienced in the circle track arena and I do wrench my owns cars so I am looking for a class that reasonable in cost and maintenance (as reasonable as racing gets any way) and a car/truck I can work with for while. I do have a LLM but it was build up north and has a Chevelle front clip, perimter, so its heavy at 3k with no lead. Therefore, I set it up to play with on the road courses but I dont think it would be competitive in TSRS due to the weight and I am assuming definitely not in ASA Pro Late Models. By the way if anyone knows a class (circle track) that could run a LLM car in to be competitive, please let me know however, even most of the TX LLM's have aftermarket front clips with less weight to begin with which allows you to distribute 200 to 300 pds of of the lead where you need it. The other reason I like the crate class is because of cost as I am assuming some TSRS motors have 12k+ in them to run up front. Its a very nice car but again, I think too heavy for most classes I have to choose from and a nascar style interior which (I think) can limit ride heighth due to the style headers that have to be used. I will post a picture soon. Thanks for all the feedback. If anyone needs an extra hand on March 14th at HMP I will be glad to help out if I can as I plan on roaming the pits to get more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 If anyone needs an extra hand on March 14th at HMP I will be glad to help out if I can as I plan on roaming the pits to get more info. Please feel free to stop by the #3 Pro truck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Pinson Posted February 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I don't think it's too late to allow the series to run together. The only decision that needs to be made is telling the USST/LMST how much lead we need to add. This requires very little money. The Pro Trucks would not incur any of the costs just the USST/LMST trucks. I'm know the races that don't conflict with our schedule there would be trucks show up especially the big shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Got one word for your 604.... Brakes! Before all these changes that will ultimately make more Hp, these trucks need better brakes... Brakes that are on them now are good for what the trucks are, but you start adding Hp and we better come up with a way to stop them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracer Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Pictute of LLM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcellracing Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Heck I would trade you for my pro truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemdk Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 you could add weight to the USST trucks and also allow the pro trucks to run the larger 650 cfm carb which is what GM recommends on that motor. I would like to see it be optional for the Pro Trucks to run a 3 speed or Automatic. I personally don't like the automatic just for the fact that I watched 2 pretty bad fires that were caused by trans fluid on the headers. I think we should invite the USST trucks down for speedfest and practice on Friday night and see where we all are. The pro trucks would have the advantage of local knowledge. Let the guys come down with their tire and let's put it to the test. HMP was willing to do that last year with the thunder stocks and pro stocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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