LM tires

[NickHolt]

Looking ahead to 2005 and beyond, let me pick your racing brains again.

 

San Antonio Speedway runs 10" Hoosier Slicks on their LMs. TSRS and THR run 8" Hoosier slicks on their LMs. If one of the goals is to bring the three LM rules closer together, what would be the way to go with the tire rules sometime in the future?

 

1) Keep the rules the way they are now (SAS on 10", THR and TSRS on 8" slicks)?

2) Have everyone run on the 10" Hoosier slicks?

3) Have everyone run on the 8" Hoosier slicks?

4) Have everyone run on the 8" Hoosier treaded tires?

5) Some other way?

 

I know that some of you will suggest that the other tracks change so that you don't have to buy new rims, but what I'm really looking for is your input on the most logical way to eventually get the three LM classes running with similar rules.

 

My initial thought was that if all the LMs were running on the same tires, it might equalize things to some extent right off the bat before engine/chassis changes are even considered by TTOPA.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful input.

 

Nick Holt

[Jason]

How bout some Firestone Firehawks? lol

 

just kidding

[rebelracewriter]

Would some type weight difference be able to make up for the discrepency? Similar to the dirt track modifieds that add a 25# or 50# weight penalty for running aluminum heads vs. steel heads. Just a thought!

 

As for the tires, I think as long as you decide early enough for everyone to get ready for the change, they can at least plan accordingly.

[44SS]

I think if your going to run a lm, run a lm tire. A 10 inch tire is what most other lm series run, Southeren All Stars for example in the lm pro class. I mean if you move up from a street stock to a late modle, why not make it a full jump?

[Mel]

Nick,

On the tire issue: From an outsider's view.

 

Initially it looks like going to the 8" slick would put a premium on suspension set-up. This should help the guys that spend the extra time working on their suspension. It should slow them down somewhat, again tightening the field. The 500 carb will make passing easier, maybe less wrecks.

 

Perhaps LM drivers wanting to buy new tires every week can work out a deal with a sportsman or street stock team to buy their pull-offs for 1/2 price. This would help both of them. Just a thought...

 

This question really needs to be answered by someone who has experience on both 10" and 8" slicks. The cars that have been on 10" slicks may not be as "happy" on 8" slicks. I haven't had the pleasure of running the 10" slicks. Maybe a couple of the guys that have run both tires can comment.

 

Thanks,

Mel

[Truck99]

Perhaps LM drivers wanting to buy new tires every week can work out a deal with a sportsman or street stock team to buy their pull-offs for 1/2 price. This would help both of them. Just a thought...

I know this wasn't the intent of Nick's original question, but I thought I'd chime in on Mel's thought about the pull-offs. When the THR LM cars were running the 970s, there were several of them buying tires every week. We bought and were given bunches of tires from a couple of those teams that were practically brand new. I don't necessarily expect late model cars to be forced to run the same tire as a street stock, and I understand why they wouldn't want to, but this take-off idea is worthy of some consideration because of the benefits it can have to multiple teams.

 

If the 8" slick is the end result, maybe the street stocks could go back to that tire also (pains me to say that) to realize this benefit. We ran those tires our first year at THR. My understanding is that they changed to the 970 because of complaints of excessive flats.

 

Good luck to everyone in 04

 

cs

[waddy]

I THINK THAT IF IT IS A SERIOUS QUESTION FOR THE CAR OWNERS I WOULD SAY MAKE THE TIRE CHANGE FOR THE CARS THAT WOULD HAVE TO MAKE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF CHANGE. HOW MANY LM.S ARE ON THE 8.S AND HOW MANY ARE ON THE 10.S THEN MAKE THE DECISION FOR CHANGE THAT WOULD EFFECT THE LEAST AMOUNT OF CARS. ALTHOUGH I WOULD LIKE TO TRY THE 10.S MYSELF. WADDY

[gasman]

If you want it to be a Late Model Class, run 10". If you want it to be a limited late model, run 8".

[waddy]

what is the difference between llm and lm and will different tire size be a deciding factor also is there going to be 2 different classes or are we trying to make all the lm.s so they can run anywhere this is all new stuff to me waddy

[NewRacer]

I want to point out some thing about the F53 Tire.

A lot of people have mentioned that the first year Kyle was open they ran this tire , and had many flats so they changed.

I do want to point out that the track surface was new & green , and was tough on tires.

The rocks in the Pit areas were not packed down very well yet, and when you pulled off the track with very hot tires from the green track surface , and hit the sharp rocks they would just cut through the rubber.

The 970 groved tire did not seem to handle the new track surface & the pit Rocks in the same manner ( I think it is a much harder compound).

WE do not have a problem with the F53 tires on Our TSRS Late model at Kyle.

 

I think maybe the reason those tires did not work was due to the track conditions being New , and not the tires themself.

That is just one Theory.

I also beleive in the THIRD GUNMAN on the Grassy Knoll..

 

 

Victory Lane

[NickHolt]

waddy,

 

San Antonio Speedway, Corpus Christi Speedway and Thunder Hill Raceway have formed an organization called the Texas Track Owners and Promotors Association (TTOPA). One of TTOPA's long-range goals is to work together to bring the rules at the three member tracks closer together. And one of the areas that needs to be looked at is the tire rules at the three tracks. At this point we are simply attempting to gather information and constructive ideas to consider as we look at future tire rules at the three member tracks.

 

And no, TTOPA is not considering forming two late model divisions. The plan is to merge the rules from the existing classes to form at least three classes (a late model class similar to the SAS/THR/TSRS Late Models, an entry level class and a class that fits somewhere in between) that would eventually share common rules at all three tracks. The objective is to make it easy for cars running in those three classes to run at any TTOPA member track without having to change major components.

 

We are well aware that this is a lot easier said than done and we are proceding very cautiously.

 

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

 

Nick Holt

[Pacecar]

I have a mixed opinion about the suggestion for Nascar LMS, Kyle Limited Late Models, and TSRS cars to all use the same tire (8" F-53 Hoosier).

 

Some facts to consider:

 

1. The Hoosier 2045 model 10" tires cost about 10% more than the 8" tires.

 

2. The 10" tire is significantly faster when it is new and has fewest heat cycles on it.

 

3. The 10" tire results in significantly improved lap times vs. the 8" tire.

 

4. At SAS, the 8" tire seems to be faster when it has had several heat cycles on it. It is not an advantage to use new tires. Of course, if the 8" tread gets worn more than 50%, then it slows down.

 

5. The 8" tire is easier to mount (by hand) than the 10".

 

From a technical and financial standpoint, I think the idea has merit. But only if the track works out a system to warehouse (indoors) used tires from the Late Model class and REQUIRE the lower classes to use second-hand tires at a fraction (say 20%) of the cost of a new tire. The Late Model class would need to have lots of cars buying new tires to be able to produce an adequate supply of good, used tires.

 

For every racer that has to change from the tire they are now running to a different one, they would have to invest $600 to $900 in new wheels. That is a lot of money vs. the incremental cost difference between the tires.

 

From a performance standpoint, the F53 (8") tire is very good and should work OK. Handling setup remains very important with a smaller tire.

 

From my experience at the Nashville banquet for the Nascar Weekly Series, I learned that it is frowned upon by the other racers for a Nascar featured division to use 8" tires. It's OK for the Charger Division. Mark Wertz won his Nascar featured division region running a Limited Late Model with 8" tires. Other racers were very bitter about a Sportsman type car winning the region as a featured division, and saying it wasn't a fair competition. Many thought Wertz wasn't a deserving regional champion (for the featured series).

 

Most people and racers think that a true Late Model should run 10" tires. If you use 8" tires, it should be called a Limited type of Late Model.

 

Some racers now using 10" tires might not want to run in a series using 8" tires. They like the feeling of higher cornering speeds. Those racers might jump to the Romco touring series.

 

Overall, I still favor the 10" tire for the Nascar Late Model Stock Class. Even though there are compelling reasons for switching to 8" tires for the sake of commonization among the racetracks, my vote is for continuing with the 10" tires in the racing that I do.

 

Larry Bendele

[jracer98]

LB,

Could you elaborate on the Mark Wertz deal? What are they miffed about? He could have won his region in a dirt modified if it was the featured division. It doesn't sound like he backed into it. Here's a article.

Just asking

Thanks

Jay

 

www.racerpm.com/news/file/2003/sep/wrs0928c.html

[Pacecar]

You have to understand that the Southeast Coastal region is basically Nascar book asphalt Late Model Stocks with fierce competition in that region of the country. All the other SE Coastal track champs felt that Tim Peters was far-more deserving of the regional championship based upon the stronger competition faced by Peters.

 

That's the sentiment that I heard.

[97car]

Pacecar you have brought up a lot of valid points and ideas,as far as what size tires a NASCAR weekly series champ runs,not meaning to sound bad but others should not care,due to the fact that NASCAR tracks do not even run the same type tire or car as the top weeklyseries. There used to be a 1/4 mile track in Salt Lake City and all classes ran the same tires,they were Mcreary EC82 tires and like you suggested the lower class cars coould buy the takeoffs and run them.Now it has been rebuilt and is a 1/2 mile track.Just a suggestion Nick take a vote on registered cars that this would effect if changed. Keep up the dialogue it can only make things better.

[jracer98]

LB,

Yes, I understand how big LMS is on the eastern seaboard. I've been to the TB 300 and watched people just wreck their stuff beyond belief. Anyway, doesn't the competition index deal with the "strength of the field" issue? I was "reading into" your 1st post that the 8" tire was a factor in their grousing. Sounds more like $45,000 worth of sour grapes, HaHa.

Thanks for responding.

Jay

[NickHolt]

97car,

 

Anyone who has ever worked with me on any project knows that, if at all possible, I seek input from people interested enough to provide positive, constructive feedback before important decisions are made. But I seriously doubt that TTOPA will be taking an actual vote.

 

I will be asking for input on a wide variety of issues as time goes by, but right now I feel it's important to get thoughts and comments about tires for 2005.

 

Nick Holt

[fishracer]

Im hooked, here we go:

 

1.) most of the cars running have aftermarket bodies and the 10" wheels and they look like late models.

 

2.) It is my firm belief that with the 500 carb and the extra hp that some of the learning curve for some of the new drivers will be inhanced because it will be easier to feel changes with the 10" tires were as the hp will mask alot of settup mistakes with the 8" tires and also it will be easier to avoid hazards and drive out of potential wrecks easier with the 10" tires.

 

3.) The 10" tires and wheels are really not that much more expensive compaired to the other equipment the rules allow all of these cars to run.

 

4.) Set your classes apart from the touring classes by running the 10" tire and wheel. (also allow the mini clutches, hell most of the llm cars are running the high dollar 10,000 rpm big clutches anyway and the mini clutches must be run the same steel bell housing as the big clutches and cost about the same.)

 

5.)The running of a 8" tire at this level there is more savings in peoples minds than in reality. If thats the case make them all run pure stock frames instead of a superlatemodel style offset cage cars that have to have so much lead on the right side to make 55% left oh but they have to run a butchered up stock camaro clip. Hey, but they look like a superlatemodel. Yea have you seen a slm with 8"tires. Know you see how rediculous this is.

 

6.) Heck the best crossover track to track class there was was the superstocks in the late 80's. Remember the texas classics. what size wheel did they have? 10"

[turbotoddie]

Howdy Nick

 

As for my opinion, I would suggest the 10" tire for a number of reasons:

 

1)If the intent is to have a LM show to compete with Romco(or any other Touring LM show), the cars need to have the appearance of a full blown late model. The best races are not the fastest, they are the ones that run the closest amongst many cars.

 

2)The 10" tire provides more grip thus more control at a track like SAS. Secondly, the 8" tire would be faster down the straights and then suffer in grip in the turn resulting in more accidents.

 

3)Last, for the budget minded competitors(ie poor boys such as myself), the 10" tire, being larger, tends to allow for more races.

 

my .02 cents, but I need one of them back

 

 

Turbotoddie

Todd Farris

[Mel]

OK,

How bout you Kyle and TSRS folks, How do you feel about bolting on 10" wheels and how it would help or detract from your series. Do you think some cars would stay home if they had to buy 10" wheels?

 

Also, didn't Kyle Late Models run 10" tires at one time? Was cost the reason they were changed to 8"?

 

Thanks,

Mel

[racerjim2]

I guess the real question is how many non nascar weekly racers aregoing to buy a $185.00 nascar licence so they can race a couple of events at SAS. I have a good time running on both style of tires. The 8" tires seem to be more a drivers tire where a 10" tires seem to be a chassis techs tire.

[waddy]

AFTER READING ALL THE E MAILS IT HAS MADE ME REALLY WANT TO TRY THE 10,S IT WOULD REALLY BE GOOD I THINK TO HAVE A RULE THAT SAID EATHER IS OK JUST GO AHEAD AND BY A SET THEN IF THEY SAID 10.S JUST PUT EM ON AND GO RACING IF THEY SAID 8.S YOU ARE ALSO READY YOU,LL ALWAYS HAVE THEM READY WADDY IF YA,LL SAID 10,S ARE THE RULE I DON,T THINK ANYONE WOULD QUIT RACING.. WADDY

[gasman]

The 8" tires are for Jr. late models.

[jp17]

I prefer 10" tires. jp

[lloyd#5]

i think the 10 inch tires would be better. they asked about maybe switching to that in the meeting before the banquet but they didnt make any changes this year to any rules.