ROMCO rules changes for 2004?

[NickHolt]

Terry,

 

We keep hearing that traction control devices will be outlawed next year in ROMCO. Is that true? Are there any other rules changes in the works?

 

Nick Holt

[ROMRD]

Nick,

As of right now we have not even discussed the idea of outlawing traction control. As I have stated on here before, by allowing it I Know for a fact that no more than 5 or six at the most either tried it and took it off or decided it wasn't worth it. With that said the last thing I want to do is start a thread about it. OK!!!!!!!!

The main thing we are looking at is the possibality of a spec engine. NOT A CRATE ENGINE. We believe that we can build an engine in the 15,000.00 dollar range and still produce 550 to 575 hp. There are a number of ways we are looking into accomplish this this, so nothing is settled. We hope to have the rules and the

schedule worked out in two weeks.

Here's hoping eveyone has a safe and great holiday season, and for those of you that forgot to have sacnners, now is a good time to be good and ask the bearded one to drop one in your stocking.

 

Thank you

Terry

[rebelracewriter]

for those of you that forgot to have scanners, now is a good time to be good and ask the bearded one to drop one in your stocking.

 

So Nick is giving everyone scanners for X-Mas??? COOL! LMAO

[supertx]

Terry

please take a look at these engine rules they are very cost effective. These engines will make around the numbers that you are looking at with a lot of dependabilty i have a set of the cylinder heads and intake if you would like to see them. http://www.suprracing.com/

[fishracer]

Hey ROMRD I applaud your insight to want to control the costs of the engines in your series. As I mentioned in an earlier post, why don't you allow a large weight break to the 500cfm 2bbl, wet sump motors you might find out that the rules are looking you right in the face. I bet you put one of these in a 2700lb car and in the hands of a good chassis tuner they would qualify and run within 1/4 second of the current engine combos and since you have already established the series and most of the fans do not have stop watches they would assume they were the same cars. You could then attract more of the available teams in the region because they would not have to go out and buy an engine. They could spend more of their money on traveling to the races and keeping their cars good looking. Unfortunately it seems the teams with the most available resources are the ones that scream the loudest when you try to help to reduce the costs.

 

Just think for a minute, where are you drawing your car count from. Mostly from Texas and Oklahoma, look at the pool of racers and build your series around them. Not around Southern All Stars, Nascar Touring or other Touring series where you have a large pool of Super Late Model Teams and multiple asphalt tracks already. Work with the economics of this part of the country and draw from your existing racer base without making them go broke. If the teams with the cash want to spend more money let them race with you under your rules and then let them go race after the season with their high dollar motors. Your series will gain more respect by controlling the cost and drawing from the existing racer base than trying to immulate another series. You are really not going to loose any racers to another series, we are too damn far away from any of the other established touring series. Lets put ROMCO on the map with higher car count and closer economical racing.

[gasman]

Why change the rules at all? There are several local engine builders that build engines in this price range that are competitive. The same guys that complain about the cost of the engines are probably the guys with the big haulers. I have seen guys win races when they show up with an open trailer. As far as the car count, it was probably better than ever this year. That is just part of racing, the guys that dont do good always say it a money deal. It does not matter who you are, you can always use more money. Perhaps it would be better if everyone would try to race in a series that they can afford. Stay within your resources. Dont ruin a good thing Terry, you guys have done a great job.

[Jason]

As far as the car count, it was probably better than ever this year.

Better as in less cars?

[97car]

Another thought would be give the stock clipped cars a weight break,like TIDA did before.

[ROMRD]

Fishracer,

One thing you don't mention is what else would you allw in this motor? Aluminum heads, steel heads, etc. The type of car, offset, SAS laet model,etc. There are a lot of things that we would have to look at to make that happen. I'm not saying we would'nt consider it, but it would not be something we can make happen overnite. Along with you are saying, let's look at from another stand point, I don't remember if if was two or three years ago, but Robert Barker bolted on a 750 carb and qualifed good and ran up front with Romco, and finish in the top 8 for the race. So I can see how this can work both ways.

Gasman,

Wher i agrre with you if it is not broke don't fix it. However, as with anyone in our buisness, wether a track owner or series promoter we are allways looking for a way to increase or car count, and that is what we are looking to do now. I have gotten a lot of calls about the possible engine change. I want every body to understand that what ever we do, the engine combinations that are in efeect this year will have a place to run in Romco. No way am I going to run off what we have. The ways and opinions about how to cut the cost of racing are endless, if we had all the answers we all would have a hundred plus cars in the pits. I hope everyone will bear with us until we figure out what we are going to do.

 

Thank you

Terry

[fishracer]

Sorry ROMRD, for making myself not clear. Here it goes:

 

 

2700lb, 500cfmcarb motor(use rules already in place TSRS/THR/SAS)

 

Wet Sump Motor (If try sump add 50lbs)

 

59%left side(make up for the lack of hp but help through corners)

 

4" engine setback (helps to get weight percentages at 2700lb)

 

all other clutch, trans,rear etc from ROMCO car ok

 

 

Remember the power to weight of this motor is still about 6 to 1 compared to the 5 to 1 of the current ROMCO rules. So that is why the engine setback and total weight and left side weight. Just think this way lets say you have a guy who blows up his hp motor, he can still make the next race if he has a less expensive motor. Or the guy with the 500cfm can use his money to buy the chassis and help make car count and be competitive until he can afford the hp motor. Remember these 500cfm cars will then be easier on tires too. But by letting them run you are not hurting anyone, and the guys with the current motor packages do not have to spend a dime.

 

Your point about Robert Barker is well taken, and just think he had almost no lead in his car. Also, I believe the next week after he blew up the motor(not designed for that much hp that long).

 

As for Gasmans point, love your enthusiasm. But remember that the number of people with your resources in the state are getting less not more. So for the sake of growth of racing please look down the track to the next turn.

[Snowball]

I've heard that the Sunoco super series is also looking at an engine that will be around $15,000 and it is supposed to last a whole season. I hope that all of the major series can come up with a common set of rules,and then the local tracks need to adopt the same rules. Unfortunately i doubt this will happen, but we can always hope.If these series all have different rules, it will eventually kill big latemodel shows like the Snowball Derby because everyone will have different rules. Maybe the leaders of the texas series can get up with Southern Aall Stars and the Sunoco super series to come up with a common set of rules. ASA has also bought a latemodel series.

[gasman]

fishracer

I only wish we had some of the resources that some people do. What I was trying to say is that we are running $15,000 engines and doing ok with them. I remember reading a post earlier in the year that said people should spend more time tuning their chassis than they do now. There are a lot of low budget racers that do that and do well. So changing the rules every year may not be the right answer to getting more racers. Maybe they should attend Nick Holts seminar. I think that is only $300.

[Bandit]

Gasman, I could not agree more with your post. The motor we won three in a row with at kyle has about $7500 worth of parts in it. Now, you would have to figure in some labor and I can not put a figure to that since we do our own motor work, but I don't see how it could be even close to $15,000. The speed is in the CHASSIS SETUP, not the engine! On the other hand, if the rules allow $30,000 dollar motors then some people will run them. Thats more than I have spent in the last three seasons to build two motors and maintain them the whole time.

[44SS]

resources: 1. a place to work on the car

2. a local machine shop

3. the ability to put the motor and car together

4. a local speed shop

three resources are fairly available, #3 not everybody can do, and that is where a lot of the motor expense comes in. i have to agree with gasman, the ones complainning about the expense are some of the ones with big haulers and multiple cars, and buy their motors. heck, some of the fastest cars at mobile were low budget teams. some of what it comes down to is the willingness,determination, and sacrafice to learn about Super Late Model racing, none of which deep pockets can buy. spec motors, maybe, but dont penalize the teams who have the know how and do their on work. wet sump motors, 500 cfm carbs, ROMCO IS A SUPER LATE MODEL SERIES, which is getting some long over due respect. lets keep it as top notch a possible. Snowball had an excellent wish about common rules,IMCA has done it pretty well, no reason asphalt cant do it to. But gasman and bandit had great points about the cars handling, if anyone saw Bobby Gill at the last Big shot, he worked on the cars handling and was able to pass on the outside on the one grove track.

[fishracer]

Hey guys not trying to iritate anyone here. Just love racing and want to see it prosper in OUR STATE. Everyone likes the idea of going to the open shows and using common rules. Hey no one is stopping those that have it from running the common rules. But for the growth of our state's series lets open our minds and realize that going to these open races is great to talk about and for some that have the funds this is a possiblity. But look at how many do go and run, why build the rules for the few and why not build them for the majority. The preception of a super latemodel in Texas is ROMCO, heck you could put a 6 cylinder truck motor in them right now and fill the stands. It is the fans perception of the series, the guys inside the series are technically picking it apart. What I mean is take the basic chassis and the majority of the legal equipment and allow new comers to afford to help make the car count. What I am hearing from those already in the series sounds like "I already paid my way in, I don't want anyone to play that can't pay". This attitude has killed a 100 series/classes over the years. Again think about what you guys are saying, " we need to be just like Southern All Stars, Sunoco etc". Why not be just like ROMCO. Create your own internal identity. Hell, like I said most of the fans don't carry a stop watch, don't know what kind of carb is on the motor all they know is it is a happening when ROMCO comes to town. Do not let big ego's ruin your series open your minds create car count and close racing and not make It "The Big Carb Club". Just think at the lighter weight these cars will have close to the same seat of the pants feel as what you are driving right now. How would you like to win in front of 40 cars not 20 cars. The respect of the series comes from fans and the people that support it not from the idea of being a cookie cutter late model series. Hell look what ASA has done and Hooters pro cup. They created an identity and captured a look and a set of rules with lots of parity and along with it came respect.

[gasman]

So what you are saying fishracer is that you should penalize the guys who have paid the price to find the right combinations in the series. And when I say pay the price, I mean willingness, determination and sacrifice just like 44SS stated in his post, not with high dollar engines or equipment, not even traction control. I will disagree with you on that 100%. If the series could not field 20+ cars a race, maybe, until then no way. Many more changes and you will see cars heading east. I think you lost more by allowing TC than you gained. However, its ROMCO's decision, just my opinion.

[Jason]

Gasman,

 

Have you been to a CC ROMCO race lately? One of the worst car counts this year was when 16 showed, 15 raced, and 1 broke before even taking green. And only about 12 guys were up to speed.

[44SS]

Jason,

 

I know the last race at CC we missed because of a SA wreck and didnt have the car back together, the first race this year at CC was on Easter weekend so that kept a lot of people home, and I know of a few others that had job conflicts this year when a CC race was scheduled. I agree the car count at CC wasnt as strong this year, but I dont think its as bad as it seems, and should be better this next year.

[fishracer]

All that willingness and determination is great and learning the setup is great but when that win is in front of 20 cars it isn't as sweet as 30 or 40. As for guys going east, you first have to have the cash to go east and like I said already that is the minority not the majority. From the tone of your replies you seem to believe the majority of the racers have your financial resources to do all these things. I am not talking about the haves and the have nots, I am talking about let the guys who have the resources use them and be competitive and later go traveling with their equipment but also let the teams with less financial resources race competitively and help the regional racing scene, either way it hurts no one and helps keep our regional series healthy.

[44SS]

fishracer,

 

the average car cout this year in ROMCO was 24. I think 25-30 is about all the tracks can handle without turnning into a wreck fest, which is another thing that drives up the cost of racing. I am all for supporting and building up the local racing scene, but I think TSRS rules might fit the cars that you are talking about better than mix and matching ROMCO rules. If you start having too many car combonations, it makes it murder on the tech officials. Besides, look at the 49, that is an older car with not the most powerful motor in the series, and had and outstanding year, and from what I heard price wise it wasnt any more than some of the LLM that are posted in the classified forum.

[fishracer]

44ss point well taken. But we are talking about the same thing when we say look at guys like the 49. Think about it, when a racer looks at a set of rules and it says that they canrun the hhp motors they thinkthey have to have that combination. you and I know you don't. At least say through the rules if you don't have it, come with the equipment you do have and feel like you are competitive and make car count. The average car count should be after the cut and not everyone that shows up. I am not saying to have so many cars that there is a crash fest. That is what qualifing is for and if the hhp motors are so much better and there are so many quality hhp guys then they do not have anything to worry about and the teams that make the cut will actually be closer and there will not be such desparity in times like their is now. Just look at when they run at sas and the top five leave the rest of the field in most cases. On the shorter tracks its just a blur and most people do not even know who is where unless its the top 3 or 4. The shorter tracks are what keep the low buck guys coming back because hp difference does not mean as much. But the whole idea is come to the races to win and not run for last place and be a spectator racer. I applaud the guys that have come out and supported ROMCO but like I stated before you have to want your series to grow and the only way is to open your mind and not your wallet and help the future.

 

If you look at the TSRS rules and the SAS late models they have as much in some of these chassis as the ROMCO guys do, but the thing that keeps them from moving up on the speed charts is the cost of the engine. Power to weight is the deal and its a simple formula. Like I stated on another topic. A great example are the ARTS trucks, very little motor but light weight=decent lap times. Look at the Octoberfast qualifying times on these cars 19.40's at 3100lbs and 55%left side weight. The same cars with 8"tires fast times low 20's. Just think how fast at 59%leftside and 400lbs less. Be afraid, very afraid.

[Bandit]

If you look at the cost to build a wet sump vs a dry sump there is no real cost difference except the cost of the pump, and that may not be any better when you consider you can run the same pump on multi motors and dry sump motors live longer. Two things drive the cost of SLM motors up, ported heads and super light rotating assemblies.

[fishracer]

And don't forget:

 

Roller Cam, roller lifters, rev kit, shaft rockers, belt drive, crank triggers. evac systems, trick pans, different length dry sump pumps, intakes,trick 4bbl carbs and like you said honda journal ultra light cranks, ultra light rods, pistons, titanium valves. roller springs,dry sump tanks, light weight hoses. All this adds up.

 

As for the dry sump, its assumed its needed for durability in reality its really for making horsepower. In the upper series where you have real long races they are needed because of the amount of oil used on a 250-500 mile race. There is no need around here with a 125 lap race. There are series in other parts of the country that run wet sumps with the same horsepower as the current Romco cars and they outlaw drysumps because the way you can manipulate the power with the vacuum of the pumps.

 

Oh yeah, did I mention that you don't have to have all of the above to be competitive. You can run up front with less, but for how long. The whole idea is to make your purchases last and go the farthest on the least amount of money,simple business and don't fool yourself, racing is a business and its a fun one too. With the present set of rules it allows you to do all the above even though you might not need it. But lose 1 race and not have it and what do you think will get the blame. Your wallet or whats not in it. How many ROMCO cars are laying around without motors because the team is saving up for the next one or has blown their wad and can't afford to continue. I know of some pretty fast guys who can't make it. A loss for racing in Texas. Remember the rules are an advertisement to the racers.

 

What will help the bleeding. Write and enforce a set of rules that specs out all the above or blend what you have with the TSRS/THR/SAS and give the guys with these engines a break, it will pay off. Who knows, just like with many other rules that have been written, if you don't tell them you have to have it they might see the light and in the end everyone is running this motor and guess what, they did it on their own not because they were told to. Just think teams with 2 or 3 of these motors or just one hhp motor. HMMMMM

[gasman]

If you want to run in a more affordable series, do it. If you want to run in a Super Late Model series, do it. You dont see the people running in the Romco series crying to the Busch series to change the rules so they can run with them. Now damnit, if Nextel cup would change their rules, we could all run with them. Run what you can, be the best you can be. The roadrunner class, the sportsman class can always use more cars. It is not the end of the world if you cant run what you want. Dont hate the game, hate the player.

[supertx]

This is a real topic and one that you may never have an answer too. There's one thing that i know about racing for the last 30 yrs. what ever rules you end up with the cost will go up because racers are going to spend every penny they have to go faster and i don't care if your at the winston cup [whoops ] nextel cup level or at the local level, research and development is expensive and there is know way to stop that. EXAMPLE Romrd this coming season TOYOTA is going to be legal in NASCAR is it going to be legal in ROMCO and how would you keep them out? If you can find a way to make racing cheap it's probally not going to be worth watching.