Hartracn19 Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 hart what book do you read all what you say from .lol how do we get with you on videos. LOL... On the videos, the plan is to have them at the banquet this Saturday. Will you or anyone from your team be at the banquet? If not, I think Ariel (66) is coming. Can you get him to email me or post if he is. I also need to confirm who wants them from the corpus area. OT - I have you down for 3... Ariel 66 - I have down for 1... Lalo - I have down for 1... I just need confirmation, and if someone will be at the banquet from CC, and they can bring all the cash, and take back all the DVD's!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 hart what book do you read all what you say from .lol how do we get with you on videos. LOL... On the videos, the plan is to have them at the banquet this Saturday. Will you or anyone from your team be at the banquet? If not, I think Ariel (66) is coming. Can you get him to email me or post if he is. I also need to confirm who wants them from the corpus area. OT - I have you down for 3... Ariel 66 - I have down for 1... Lalo - I have down for 1... I just need confirmation, and if someone will be at the banquet from CC, and they can bring all the cash, and take back all the DVD's!! cant get to you .going to have to send them to me pm me and ill get you the address . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hartracn19 Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 hart what book do you read all what you say from .lol how do we get with you on videos. LOL... On the videos, the plan is to have them at the banquet this Saturday. Will you or anyone from your team be at the banquet? If not, I think Ariel (66) is coming. Can you get him to email me or post if he is. I also need to confirm who wants them from the corpus area. OT - I have you down for 3... Ariel 66 - I have down for 1... Lalo - I have down for 1... I just need confirmation, and if someone will be at the banquet from CC, and they can bring all the cash, and take back all the DVD's!! cant get to you .going to have to send them to me pm me and ill get you the address . PM Sent!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cRt racing Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 ok well lets look at this a lot of fords ran tps years ago. they were fast but couldnt win the chanpionship .ok when randy and leroy started running tps . they had the alum heads . they were the first ones to run them with tps. and yea they won the championship . so know to compete with the other cars running tps. the fords have to run the alum head . now a ford weighs a lot more than most of the front wheel drives on the track . the fords weigh about 2300lbs depends on what you are running. whats the average on the front wheel drives 1800lbs . 500lbs is a lot on a race car so you have more wear and tear . and things break easyer. now anyone who has driven both . know it is easyer to pull something around the turns than to push something .have you even tried to spin out a front wheel drive . (it isnt easy) now it pretty easy to spin a car out that is a rear wheel drive. sure the fords have more horsepower down the straights but the front wheel drives have the advantage in the turns and everyone knows if you can corner better than another car you dont have to have a high horsepower motor now granted its not easy trying to balance this class and i wouldnt wanna be the one that has to ( poor neil ) but the fords to compete have to spend big bucks on a head they burn there tires up faster they dont corner as good they have restrictions put on them for left side weight ( and that would help them corner better) now several times lalo's car has been up front but things happen so ive heard two different stories on the rules for next year so i dont wanna say anything till i see them. so to finish off we are either going to build lalo a new car or redo rico's it depends on what the rules have changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 CRT, the oem chassis are now limited to 57% left side,the tube chassis is 55% if running the aluminum head and 56% if running the iron head,OEM frame with aftermarket head is 56%. It looks like a oem frame with oem head gets a 200lb weight break along with the 5% for oem frame. Also the 40mm restrictor is currently only required on ARCA head cars at SAS only. Also get to add 1/8" plate to driver door bars.I am also adding it up in front of the pedal area on the left side. I don't want any boards coming into my car like Jack had,and Donnie had a even closer call a year or 2 earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 ok well lets look at this a lot of fords ran tps years ago. they were fast but couldnt win the chanpionship .ok when randy and leroy started running tps . they had the alum heads . they were the first ones to run them with tps. and yea they won the championship . so know to compete with the other cars running tps. the fords have to run the alum head . now a ford weighs a lot more than most of the front wheel drives on the track . the fords weigh about 2300lbs depends on what you are running. whats the average on the front wheel drives 1800lbs . 500lbs is a lot on a race car so you have more wear and tear . and things break easyer. now anyone who has driven both . know it is easyer to pull something around the turns than to push something .have you even tried to spin out a front wheel drive . (it isnt easy) now it pretty easy to spin a car out that is a rear wheel drive. sure the fords have more horsepower down the straights but the front wheel drives have the advantage in the turns and everyone knows if you can corner better than another car you dont have to have a high horsepower motor now granted its not easy trying to balance this class and i wouldnt wanna be the one that has to ( poor neil ) but the fords to compete have to spend big bucks on a head they burn there tires up faster they dont corner as good they have restrictions put on them for left side weight ( and that would help them corner better) now several times lalo's car has been up front but things happen so ive heard two different stories on the rules for next year so i dont wanna say anything till i see them. so to finish off we are either going to build lalo a new car or redo rico's it depends on what the rules have changed Once again, cRt, you do not have the facts. First, during the era you are referring to, all three of those fast Fords (Leroy Farmer, Randy Lee and Steve Foster) had quicker corner speeds than any of the front wheel driver cars. Bill LaBarge also had quicker corner speeds that any of the front wheel drive cars but was a tenth, or so slower through the turns than those three Fords. I know this to be true because I took corner speeds at both THR and SAS while I was the Chief TPS Tech Official during that period. I made it a point to have facts available so that when Neil and I were looking at rules changes for the following year we could base our decisions on facts, rather than speculation. Second, you are not correct when you imply that a front-wheel-drive car has an inherent handling advantage over a rear-wheel-drive car. FWD cars almost always are very nose heavy and tend to push in the turns. RWD cars can usually obtain a much better weight distribution, at least in the front-to-rear plane. Anyone who has an understanding of suspension dynamics knows this to be true. The current crop of FWD VWs have worked on their suspensions for several seasons and have maximized their handling potential whereas many of the Ford teams have not. Thirdly, you forgot to mention that the TPS rules are based on a 1.1 pound per cubic centimeter of engine displacement formula Simply put, the bigger the engine, the more the car has to weigh. The smaller the engine, the less the car has to weigh. Certain allowances are made for an OEM chassis verses a fabricated chassis and an aftermarket head verses an OEM steel head. It's a time-tested weight-to-cubic centimeter formula that has worked for TPS and it's predecessor, the TIDA Pro Sedans (not to mention the TIDA Late Models who also had a weight to CID formula). You are correct, however, when you say that the Fords have proven to be faster in many races this season. And you are also correct when you say that the Ford teams have had "things happen" during the season. Once the Fords have taken full advantage of all the weight rules and have dialed in their cars like Leroy and Randy Lee did, look for the Fords to end up in victory lane more often. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neon14 Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 crt, you pretty much said in your last post that a ford would have to have an aluminum head to win a championship and that a fwd handles better and it also weighs less. So my suggestion to you is to build a ford focus, because it has all of these these things in one package. You could prolly build the whole car for about the price of one of those aluminum heads. Thats what I would do, if I was a ford guy. JMO Neon Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted November 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 To help this discussion, the following TPS News Release has been posted in the Announcements & Press Release forum. 2007 Texas Pro Sedans Rules Issued San Antonio, Texas Texas Pro Sedans Series Race and Administrative Director, Neil Upchurch has announced completion and issuance of the 2007 TPS Rules and Technical Specifications. The rules were distributed in person to all TPS members who attend the TPS Awards Dinner at Carlos Kelly’s in San Antonio on November 11. On November 12th, the rules were distributed by Email and by US mail on November 13th to all member non-attendees. Complete TPS rules will be posted on - www.TexasProSedans.com. The few changes from last years rules were announced in a post season newsletter to all members of the San Antonio based 4 - cylinder stock car series after the final 2006 season race on October 28th. 2007 Texas Pro Sedans Rules Changes: > OEM frame cars left side percentage decreased from 58% to 57%. Fabricated frame cars left side percentage increased from 54% to 55%. (All other frames remain the same 56%). > Protective 1/8” welded steel intrusion plates on driver door side bars required in 2007. > No restrictor plate will be required for ARCA head cars for races at Thunder Hill Raceway. The 40mm restrictor plate remains required for ARCA head cars for races at San Antonio Speedway. This R&D rule will be for a 2007 period, length to be announced. > All air cooled cars using after-market heads will be allowed 57% left side percentage. > A 32 x 36mm Holley/Weber remains on DOCH cars, but TPS will continue a 38mm x 38mm carburetor R&D period on DOCH cars during at least the initial part of the 2007 season. Persons needing 2007 TPS Rules and Technical Specifications may contact neilupchurch@sbcglobal.net SCHEDULE NOTES: The complete 2007 Texas Pro Sedans Race Schedule will be not be announced until after the TPS contract with Thunder Hill Raceway is negotiated and signed for the upcoming 2007 racing season. An eight race contract between San Antonio Speedway and the Texas Pro Sedans has been completed and signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cRt racing Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 ok nick 1 for the fords to have more corner speed look how far they run into the turns we have to drive farther into the turns and then hit the brakes and this is not speculation and for the second part have you ever raced in the rain i have at cc speedway it started raining during our feature race and the track keep the green out the track became real slick for the rwd's but the front wheel drive just keep moving along me and horton and the others laughed and talked about it after the race the rear wheel drives would go in the turns and just almost slide in the walls now i think even poorboy was running with us then and nick i i do look for some fords to be back in victory lane next year i just hope that with the breaks that the fords have that once we get a ford back in victory lane that the breaks dont get taken away from us again hey will are the rumours true that you are retiring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neon14 Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 crt, so now fords are faster in the corners but the fwds handle better and have an advantage. lol I am not going to give it up yet. I heard you are looking for a car. I think one of my old neons is for sale. It would be a good car for your son, or even you. You could prolly buy that car for way cheaper than you could build a ford. Neon Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 it started raining during our feature race and the track keep the green out the track became real slick for the rwd's but the front wheel drive just keep moving along I have to give you that one, cRt. The FWD cars are probably better in the rain. And I bet they're much better in the snow as well... Next time they hold a TPS race in the rain or snow I'll be sure to take corner times.. LOL Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorboy Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I would say there should be 1 amendment to the rules. When racing in rain or snow front wheel drives must have 60% right side weight and cannot run snow chains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 nick you can check out my set up on the 7 car anytime you like lol . but anytime you can get on the gas sooner out of the corner you.ll be faster . when you pull a car out of the turn it will be faster than a rwd .now in our case ill give it to nick i think we maybe close togetther with fords and fwd at some tracks sas and kyle . but cc forget it fwd have a large advantage there they can get lower and really get on the gas alot sooner than a rwd period .when donnie moore broke the track record he was slower in the middle than lalo and bill .but he could hammer it in and out with that light stroked car and motor .. rwd has to run in hard and wait longer to get on the gas and not to hard with out the rear end slideing . our car is fast but with the wieght that we cary it takes alot of power to move it .2572 min verses 1800 .and john knows how that wieght feels btw how is he doing and jaime to . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 nick you can check out my set up on the 7 car anytime you like lol . but anytime you can get on the gas sooner out of the corner you.ll be faster . when you pull a car out of the turn it will be faster than a rwd .now in our case ill give it to nick i think we maybe close togetther with fords and fwd at some tracks sas and kyle . but cc forget it fwd have a large advantage there they can get lower and really get on the gas alot sooner than a rwd period .when donnie moore broke the track record he was slower in the middle than lalo and bill .but he could hammer it in and out with that light stroked car and motor .. rwd has to run in hard and wait longer to get on the gas and not to hard with out the rear end slideing . our car is fast but with the wieght that we cary it takes alot of power to move it .2572 min verses 1800 .and john knows how that wieght feels btw how is he doing and jaime to . OK Mike, I'd be happy to assist with your handling issues for my usual hourly fee. I'm sure it handles just great as it is, but hey.. what if you're leaving a few tenths on the table? Save yourself some cash and obtain the following data from your car and share it with me before I actually get started: 1. Weight at all four tires - race ready with driver in seat ready to drive. 2. Unsprung weight at all four corners. 3. Front and rear roll center heights. 4. Roll axis height at the CGH. 5. Motion raitio squared for springs at all four corners. 6. Spring and Wheel rates for all four corners. 7. Rated spring rate of the front sway bar and the motion ratio squared of the sway bar at both sides. 8. Roll Couple Distribution percentages. 9. Vertical distance between the CGH and Roll Axis. 10. KPI for both front spindles 11. Scrub radius for both front tire contact patches. 12. Roll and bump steer curves for both front and rear suspension. 13. Camber curves for left and right front suspension travel 14. Toe Settings 15. Static caster settings 16. Caster gain/loss curves for both sides. 17. Tire stagger front and rear. 18. Tire pressures front and rear. 19. Instant center locations for both front and rear suspension linkages (if rear leaf springs, graph the front and rear spring mounts, location of spring contact with the rear end and any lowering blocks utilized. 20. Dynamic lateral roll center locations. This should give me a good head start before I actually get started. Have fun! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy_GT13 Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 This year -CC- center turn 3-4 Thumper high, me low 1 mph diff., 3-4 mph faster than ss cars. BTW,my car has same size/offset/tires on all 4 corners. No wonder I'm so slow! Speeds done with radar gun. 1, 17, 18. Dang Nick, if I knew all that stuff I would be fast. Don't think all that info would do anything but confuse me. I'm more like a bumble bee, don't know I shouldn't be able to do that.LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumper Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I remember that race in the rain.Again Oldtimer and CRT dont have a clue.I was also in that race.Horton again took me to school.He walked the track before the race and found that the wall had kept the track dry close to it on one end.The rain was a drizzle kind.I was scard because I know what slicks do on wet pavement and what FWD cars do on a slippery surface.They dont turn,stop or accellarate.When Horton blew by me I knew he knew something I didnt.After the race I figgured it out and thats what we laughed about.Again I was learning while Stephen was griping.Horton was a good teacher.I used that knowlege to help me become a fair modified driver,looking for spots of traction on a dry slick track.Racing is a never ending learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 lol nick .can you put that in english . you forgot total wieght . drag co .and yes there is always a tenth or two in every car . hey gb what clue there wasnot a dry spot on that track i also walked it .where were you .and horton ran middle groove .i was there lol.the sad part was it was a points race against steven and horton .and that let him get a bigger spread on us .i won a race in the rain at cc against fat man boy that was slick those cars were sliding before we got to the turns .25 second lap times .and we were on treads .but it was fun .dont ever want to do that again . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maz1438 Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 our car is fast but with the wieght that we cary it takes alot of power to move it .2572 min verses 1800 .and john knows how that wieght feels btw how is he doing and jaime to . John is doing alittle better now.Still abit sore. But, he has been taken his painkillers (beer) Jaime is doing well also and has found a new vehicle to spend all his time working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 ... you forgot total wieght . drag co ... Well, OT. I figured that if I had all four corner weights I might be able to somehow figure up the total weight. LOL And if "drag co" means drag coefficient, that parameter is immeasurable without access to a fully-equipped wind tunnel. All the rest of the information I requested is readily obtainable with tools commonly found in most race shops. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 had to rag you nick so what do you charge . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumper Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 I have a question for you Nick.On a front wheel drive how do you get the torque steer out of the front when locked.More stagger gets it into the corner but causes push on exit.Kind of like when a cv joint breaks and the car goes the same direction as the broken axle because the opposite wheel pulls.This has been bothering me for years but only on a dry slick dirt track.I tried to free up the car with more RR spring but this causes more diaginal weight as reverse cross and makes push on exit under power too.Smaller or lesser rear tires will help turn but is too reactive if hitting any kind of slick spot.I cannot get any camber gain so I have to put static camber to equal the body roll in the center.I was thinking of more akerman but this does not work on pavement,it causes too much heat on the front.I have rasised the entire ride hight and sofened the right side springs and now have a lot of body roll and this has helped with side bite.I just need to know how to make the RF the dominate wheel on exit under power on dry slick to pull the car left instead of right.100#s on the rear bumper helped the most in the center.Too much static weight on the RF looses side bite.Any ideas?I would really like to lower the front roll center and move the moment arm to the left but I cant even establish the RC.There is a library of info for rear drive but nothing for FWD.Its all trial and error.It seems the Honda has the advantage with a left mounted engine and a reverse direction running engine.Sleepy Gomez did a piece on FWD roll centers at my request in Stock Car Magazine but my struts are nowhere near the angles in his diagram. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, G.B.Carter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-Crew Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Gb, try running it open instead of locked. With reverse stagger and crossweight ~48% the LF will have more weight at corner apex and with a taller tire, less torque to spin. BTW the later Civic and CRX Honda are not strut so also have tha advantage of an upper control arm that can be adjusted to locate roll center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 thats is one of many adjustable parts on a pinto or tube chassis with upper controw arms . with leaf springs .adjustable rear end blocks wieght jacks and a whole lot more other things to adjust .its almost endless in just a matter of a minute or two i can adjust alot .fwd is limited to a smaller point . and there are a few drivers out there have got me by the foot on what to do with a fwd .don sergio crew 1 john . the 15 . will and yes gb has done a very good job at it also you guys have a tough one to figure out . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 I have a question for you Nick. G.B. Check your Email. A three-page response to your questions is headed to your mailbox! No charge this time.. LOL. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tps48 Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 Hey Nick....What did you tell G.B.? Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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