PAPA Posted January 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Im going to try and take some of the ideas that have been posted on here and submit them to Wayne. If anyone else has any ideas about how to get these cars on the track please post them. I will let everyone know what he has to say about it. Wayne is a great guy and he will shoot straight. He just wont say yes or no to any of this without explaining everything. Im sure he probably has some ideas that would help this cause. I think that with a lot of communication between the track and the racers we can make this work. So please...post your ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 lol...I remember that yellow mustang...Fastest Chicken in Texas....but somebody told me he ran a chevy powerplant...does anyone know for sure? In the early 80's he started out with a 302 ford. The car handled great, but he couldn't get enough power with the rules. Later, he did run a chevy under the ford skin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Definitive Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hmmmm....thought so...thx txtom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonesome Ford Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 txtom- Bingo, there ya go It's hard to win in a Ford via most rules, even back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I refuse to let this thread die!!!!!!! Come on guys....THINK! What can be done to put these cars on the track? Its the only class that doesnt have a Ford or Mopar. Give me something to show to Wayne. Maybe no one idea is the answer but several ideas might get us close to one. Thanksl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Come on guys....THINK! What can be done to put these cars on the track? Probably the only thing for the Fords is what John JR and Thumper mentioned, the 347 Stroker. Not sure what it would take to get the Mopars out there, they need more parts options, better valvetrain, and fix some oiling issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonesome Ford Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 As far as the latest Sportsman rules read, Ford (351) & Mopar (360) are not at a huge disadvantage but there are better engine combos. Valve size for the Windsor is a slight disadvantage. Maybe a weight break or a 65cc combustion chamber head instead of the mandated 68cc. You can't really give a huge advantage to the Ford or Mopar, because then overall fairness becomes an issue. But you still have to have the guys who want to do it before it will get done. More chevy guys than the rest of us. The trucks could give the Ford & Mopar guys a break though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 OK, Lets say the green light was given for the 347ci stroker. And possibly the GT-40P heads. That gives us the motor. And lets say the OEM GM chassis will be used. What else are we looking at? Trans? Body? Anything with the rearend? Engine set back maybe? Left side weight? Overall weight? Whats next? Lets keep it rolling. But as a personal touch, I think all the Fords should be painted green and have 57 on the side. But thats just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrss1 Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 papa i am with you on the green 57 maybe maroon 24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonesome Ford Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-Crew Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 From an outsiders view it seems like the biggest problem is rules. As stated by several folks earlier, the heads are an issue for Fords and the only real way to get parity is allow some of the better aftermarket heads. Dart, AFR and others all make heads for the Ford and that is one of the reasons they do well in a straight line. For chassis, the early Fairlane/Torino chassis is not much different than a GM Nova or Camaro, they just put the spring on the upper arm instead of the lower. Same for the Granada. The Maverick is too short on wheelbase but I think you could get an LTD II to work. The only thing newer would be the full size fords and they are too big for most classes.. I don't know how the weight issue would be handled but a 351W with good aftermarket heads should run with any GM 350. If rules allow a setback the greateer engine weight shouldn't be that much dissadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonesome Ford Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Oh yea, engine setback! How could I have missed that? Ok as per our current rules (ARTS / USRA) trucks: " Engine location is measured on the right side (passenger side), from the forward most spark plug centerline, to the imaginary line projected between the left and right, front, jack bolts. The forward most spark plug centerline should be no less than 5.00 inches forward of this imaginary line for the Chevy, 7.00 inches for the Ford, and 1.75 inches for the Dodge. " The rules are the rules..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 For chassis, the early Fairlane/Torino chassis is not much different than a GM Nova or Camaro, they just put the spring on the upper arm instead of the lower. Same for the Granada. The Maverick is too short on wheelbase but I think you could get an LTD II to work. The only thing newer would be the full size fords and they are too big for most classes.. Just curious... Why are there no mustangs (in sportsman)? The bigger ones (71-73) are 109 wb and I believe the others are 108 back to the original. Shelby gt 350's were a killer diller deal on road courses. They were "amplified" mustangs with dual a arm front suspensions with rear leaf just like a camaro...totally conventional design. It would be a shame to kill an early mustang racing it but if you had a beater 65 notch, it's one of the lightest cars to ever come down the line. On a slightly different subject, what about a lbs/cu. in. deal rather than a minimumweight. Light car w/289 and windsor heads might really aggravate the camaros. Just a little coffee break thinking... Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-Crew Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 The factory front A-arm arrangment was not good on any of the mustang, maverick, fairlane, falcon type cars. If allowed to relocate the upper arm mounts (as was done for the Shelby) it get's better. The 65-66 had a relatively short lower arm and a very short upper arm - not ideal.. 67 and later had a longer lower arm. Hard to visualize anyone sacrificing a mustang but what about a maverick (the 4 door is 109 inch wheelbase, the 2 door is only 103), Granada, fairlane or torino.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumper Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 In the late 60s early 70s there was a Ford in the jalopy class at Almeda Speedway in Houston on the dirt that was the fastest car.It was a 57 Ford with a straight six.All the cars in that class were sixes but that Ford had them covered.Also at the dirt track in Navasota they ran modifieds with no weight or engine restrictions during the same time and there were a couple of 6 cyl Fords with sidedraft carbs that killed the V8s,mostly because of the engine setback rule using the # 1 sparkplug for reference.The only Ford Ive seen in recent times that was bad fast was in McAllen in a modified,built by Rousch Racing and cost a bunch.The 347s that make super power are breaking cranks or blowing the main webbing out of the blocks.The 302s are king of the drags now but have no torque for oval track racing.Most of the oval track racing for Ford now is in the 4cyl classes.But they are facing stiff competetion from the front wheel drive cars.Someday the fastest cars will be supercharged Neons,Eclipses,Hondas,Focuses,Colbalts and the like.I dont know why there not running these cars now as a feature class,they will outrun any V8 car with 10" tires and 2000#s.I believe the Civics are doing somewhere in the high 6s in the quarter now.I guess us oval trackers are used to living in the past.JMO.The last race I watched Slick Yoeman almost lap the entire field he was running a V6 from an old Bush car. Thumper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I refuse to let this thread die!!!!!!! Come on guys....THINK! What can be done to put these cars on the track? Its the only class that doesnt have a Ford or Mopar. Give me something to show to Wayne. Maybe no one idea is the answer but several ideas might get us close to one. Thanksl PAPA, The late models know have all three in the form of a crate engine. Unfortunately, the combination of availability of parts and extra cost of building a competitive Ford or Mopar leaves you with a field of cars dominated by Chevys. The problem I see is that your taking about a sportsman class. It seems to me that a sportsman engine should be cheaper to build than a late model engine, but if you were to add aluminum heads to try to help with the weight, I would think it would be just as expense to build a competitive Ford or Mopar engine as buying a crate. There are always ways to even out the field, by either giving to the Fords and Mopars or taking away from the Chevys. If you guys could make a set of rules that made every racer happy, you should be given the NOBLE PIECE PRIZE, since that would be a MIRACLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 In my opinion the "Sportsman" class at ANY track is the most popular class. They are the ones that usually has more cars. They put on a GREAT show. They are truely "Stock Cars". Each one at one time was used on the street. They have V-8 engines that ROAR!!! They bump and rud each other without peices of the bodies flying off. They are Warriors! Yes, someday soon we will be watching the LITTLE 4-cyl cars go around and around sounding like a hive of bumble bees. They'll be fast and exciting Im sure but they will never compare to what we have in the Sportman cars. Thats why I feel strongly that we need to get the Fords/Mopars back on the track. It wont happen over night Im sure but it can happen. Im going to do all I can to see that they race again. I dont drive or build these cars. Im just an old fat one legged PAPA that LOVES short track racing. Im relying on all of you to guild me in my quest. You have all the knowlege and ideas. I want to take all of that and present it to the powers to be. I want to hear from the Chevy guys about this too. Your input is just as important. Ill shut-up now. Thanks again PAPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewcheif21,73 Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I had a mustang street/drag car. Had a 302 with stock ported heads motorsport roller cam and edelbrock( however its spelt) intake and holly 750 carb,ran 12.80s on slicks. Then added trickflow heads,trickflows cam and torker 2 intake same carb got into high 11vs on motor and low 11vs on a hundred shot of nitrous. Point being stock bottem end.If you build a 302 with a lighten crank good rods and pistons i promise you you can hang with a 350 or even beat one very easy. Thats all i know the best is ford motors. And someone who can build one is Danny Webb at mission thats his favorite is ford motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonSenseRacing Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 In my opinion the "Sportsman" class at ANY track is the most popular class. They are the ones that usually has more cars. They put on a GREAT show. They are truely "Stock Cars". PAPA, Your absolutely right, they usually have the most cars and put on the best show. They also have the tightest budgets, so cost is extremely important to them. Chevrolet just happens to be the cheapest way to go fast. But, I’m with you on trying to find away to have all the manufacturers out there exchanging paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Papa, I'm certainly no expert in this field so maybe I'm out of line even posting on this thread. Having said that, I will say this. Over in the history section on that thread where see86go has been posting old PAS photos (about 30 yrs old), I see several fords in those photos, so obviously they met the rules back then. My question then is what has changed in the rules. Have the rules over the years evolved to become so "chevy specific" that from a cost stand point its just not economically feasible to build anything other than a chevy? Perhaps at some point, the rules need to be revisited with an eye to being more inclusive of other makes, and allow for their inherent differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Buddy I noticed the same thing while looking at those photos. I dont know what the rules were back then but there where several fords. I dont know how or when but mark my words...They will return!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Papa, I think that would be a very desirable thing to have occur from the fans' point of view. Revive the old "ford vs chevy" rivalry. The racing industry thrived on that for many, many years, and still does in Nascar and drag racing. Please don't misunderstand me. Not saying they should be changed this week or this month ..................... just something to be considered in the years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Do any of you Chevy guys have a problem with the Fords running the 347 stroker with the GT-40P heads? Lets hear your input on this. How about some of you LM guys that use to run the Sportsmans? Speakup please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Keep in mind part of the equalizer was the track size,but I am curious to what the rules were back then. I know there were big and small block Ford and Chevy as well as Dodge running together in the super modified classes back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie49 Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 question about the engine setback. Why can't engine setback rules be completely removed and only use front/ rear, and side to side weight %ages? This would level the field somewhat when swapping engine makes, wouldn't it? Is there a reason why this doesn't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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