kn1ghtblade Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I personally would like the idea of an entry level class that allows the v6 FWD cars.... IE: Cavaliers, GrandAms, T-Birds ect..... If there was this class I would be racing already in my 87 Cav Z24.. . Instead I am buying a Camero Chassis and builind a motor to run in sportsman... Now granted I would still do the sportsman car anyway becuase I cant wait to get that much HP moving around that track, but if the v6 class was there then atleast I could get seat time now instead of it being atleast a year off.... BTW if there was a v6 FWD class that would be a fun class to watch since those types of cars can really generate speed with awesome handling.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskaracer Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Jimmy Phillips Sr. used to have one FAST mopar back a long time ago, i hear alot of the reason people don't like to run mopars is because they don't have a very good oiling system, a guy who comes and runs i-37 from CC runs a dodge, and he ran an external oil pump to cure that problem, Randy Miller ran a dodge at i37 in the Limited Late Model class, and he was very fast, his car was an asphalt car, don't remember who's though. Chevys are cheap--most racers are broke or close to it.And the biggest reason is that once mopars start winning the chevy people whine and handicap the dodge guys.Look at nascar or nhra.Its supposed to be about who builds the best stock car=win on sunday-sell on monday.But nowadays its about as real as wrestling. And no one is brand loyal. All about sponser names and toyota (WHAT A SAD WORLD WE LIVE IN!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 It's just not a level playing field for fords and chryslers. That's why they should all be "super-charger" legal...................... Look at the fairness in NASCAR for one. They let GM build probally 25 differant heads for the small block while they allowed Ford one head change in 8 years. Then after the Ford picked up they let GM build the SB-2 then the SB-2 then the RO-7 while denying Ford to lighten there block for handeling and modify there head again. Just think Ford is still using basic stuff from the 1960 era and can still do what they do is still pretty good considering the throw away Toyota ebgines and the RO-7 stuff. Mean while they have allowed GM and even dodge to build 2 ground up racing only engines in less amount of years than Ford got to make a small head change. The Ford stuff will still bolt top any 302 351 small block engine. We dont need superchargers either. Just one good Ford can still beat a large field of GM powered cars. How about John Hamiltons drag race small block Mustang 1 carb, no power adder, 347 inch small block at 2850 lbs running 9.44 at 142 mph with a pair of pull off Yates heads from a old craftman truck engine. Barker in the 17 with only one of two legal heads conpaired to GM,s legal 6 or 7 pair of heads still can whip the best of them on any given weekend without a new head every 6 months or so. Wonder why NHRA added .2 pounds of weight to all Ford 302 351 clevland headed engines so GM could catch up in the 1990.s. Wonder why Hooters pro cup was won by so many Fords? Wonder why GM is trying to atop the 347 crate engines ib the ASA cars today? We will see if Fords wont get a little better in Cup racing since they finally let them build a ground up engine like GM Dodge and destroy after every race Toyota. Did not Ford win some Grand Am races this year? There is something other that Goverment Motors if you open your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I can't personally speak for the Sportsman class @ SAS but Fords in general are at a disadvantage when you look at engine options in most rulebooks. If i remember Barkers 17 Ford and Joes GM were the only late models that ever ran in the 18 second range. Dont remember Robert having a disadvantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Jimmy Phillips Sr. used to have one FAST mopar back a long time ago, i hear alot of the reason people don't like to run mopars is because they don't have a very good oiling system, a guy who comes and runs i-37 from CC runs a dodge, and he ran an external oil pump to cure that problem, Randy Miller ran a dodge at i37 in the Limited Late Model class, and he was very fast, his car was an asphalt car, don't remember who's though. Chevys are cheap--most racers are broke or close to it.And the biggest reason is that once mopars start winning the chevy people whine and handicap the dodge guys.Look at nascar or nhra.Its supposed to be about who builds the best stock car=win on sunday-sell on monday.But nowadays its about as real as wrestling. And no one is brand loyal. All about sponser names and toyota (WHAT A SAD WORLD WE LIVE IN!!!) Never figured out why everybody things GM egines are cheap. Good cranks good pistons good springs rods oil pans all cost a lot and about the same cost for all engines. Now the throw away Toyota engines make me sick. Can you imagine all there engines get destroyed after they are raced so no can see what they are doing. Thats sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
termite#99 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Destroying engines, where did you get that from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer61 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Toyota doesnt destroy the engines, just disassemble them use some of the pieces and the rest get shipped back to TRD. As for the post about the cup cars heads and what not being bolted onto a regular 302-351, I dont believe thats right either. Back in 1998 or 1999, Penske began CNC ing there own heads out of a block of billet aluminum(damn cool thing to see). Rousch followed about a year or so later. Those Ford and Dodge heads arent even close to stock. Dont even use stock bolt pattern valve covers. Blocks arent factory spec blocks, so other than maybe some bolts, dont know of anything Ford, Chevy, Dodge, or Toyota that is somewhat stock. As a matter of fact, I have never seen a factory produced V-8 Toyota car.Half these Nascar cars I dont think are available in 2 doors. Nascar has reinvented the wheel so many times that its not even a "far cry" from a stock car. Not out in left field, not even in the same country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UMSCHEIDRaceServices Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I can't personally speak for the Sportsman class @ SAS but Fords in general are at a disadvantage when you look at engine options in most rulebooks. If i remember Barkers 17 Ford and Joes GM were the only late models that ever ran in the 18 second range. Dont remember Robert having a disadvantage? the #54 of Todd McLemore ran in the 18's as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Destroying engines, where did you get that from? Why can,t you find a Toyota engine on e bay like Yates Ford Heads svo blocks cranks rods pistons oil pans .Why cant you call a Toyota shop and order there heads or blocks like you can a (real car company) that offers parts like Dodge Ford or GM. We were told they were required to destroy the engines so there top secret stuff cant be checked out by Giibbs son when they were here in SA selling there oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Toyota doesnt destroy the engines, just disassemble them use some of the pieces and the rest get shipped back to TRD. As for the post about the cup cars heads and what not being bolted onto a regular 302-351, I dont believe thats right either. Back in 1998 or 1999, Penske began CNC ing there own heads out of a block of billet aluminum(damn cool thing to see). Rousch followed about a year or so later. Those Ford and Dodge heads arent even close to stock. Dont even use stock bolt pattern valve covers. Blocks arent factory spec blocks, so other than maybe some bolts, dont know of anything Ford, Chevy, Dodge, or Toyota that is somewhat stock. As a matter of fact, I have never seen a factory produced V-8 Toyota car.Half these Nascar cars I dont think are available in 2 doors. Nascar has reinvented the wheel so many times that its not even a "far cry" from a stock car. Not out in left field, not even in the same country. Why cant you find a Toyota engine on e bay like Yates Ford Heads svo blocks cranks rods pistons oil pans .Why cant you call a Toyota shop and order there heads or blocks like you can a (real car company) that offers parts like Dodge Ford or GM. We were told they were required to destroy the engines so there top secret stuff cant be checked out by Giibbs son when they were here in SA selling there oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I can't personally speak for the Sportsman class @ SAS but Fords in general are at a disadvantage when you look at engine options in most rulebooks. If i remember Barkers 17 Ford and Joes GM were the only late models that ever ran in the 18 second range. Dont remember Robert having a disadvantage? He said "in most rulebooks". I don't think we was trying to attack your Ford engine. Simmer down just a little. Everybody knows how proud you are of your Ford horsepower, and you should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Tom, In a previous life, I drove Ford drag race cars and built a few engines along the way. I remember the problem as the lifter galleys also feed the mains. There were two common solutions. One was to bush the lifter bores and reduce the oiling hole. Another way to accomplish the same sort of thing was to tap and use screw in restrictors in the internal passages. (conceptually like restricting the flow on the back of the galleys in the sbc). The second was to use an external oil line from the filter pad (galley hole plug) up to the oil sending unit port. Some did both but I also seem to remember that you couldn't get a juice cam to work with the restrictors. Don't take any of this as gospel with getting an up to date Ford wrenchs opinion...just working from memory . Jay The fix on the clevland engineis to use a hi pressure spring with a stock pump. Ran many 9 second drag race passes in he late 1980 to 1990 with the clevland engine with no bearing failures. Whats funny the new GM LS engines oils just like the Ford clevland did. Well the aftermarket will fix that for them. Also check out the 10 bolt in the heads and almost a perfect match on the head gasgets from the 302 351 ford and the LS GM engine. Wonder if the Ford engineers went to GM. Semetrical intake ports and exhaust just like the ford heads also. Even a cam thrust plate, Suprise Suprise. Fords maybe had it figured out 40 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Toyota doesnt destroy the engines, just disassemble them use some of the pieces and the rest get shipped back to TRD. As for the post about the cup cars heads and what not being bolted onto a regular 302-351, I dont believe thats right either. Back in 1998 or 1999, Penske began CNC ing there own heads out of a block of billet aluminum(damn cool thing to see). Rousch followed about a year or so later. Those Ford and Dodge heads arent even close to stock. Dont even use stock bolt pattern valve covers. Blocks arent factory spec blocks, so other than maybe some bolts, dont know of anything Ford, Chevy, Dodge, or Toyota that is somewhat stock. As a matter of fact, I have never seen a factory produced V-8 Toyota car.Half these Nascar cars I dont think are available in 2 doors. Nascar has reinvented the wheel so many times that its not even a "far cry" from a stock car. Not out in left field, not even in the same country. By the way Fords 351 w oil pans fit the engines that are being raced today the timing cover from any 302 351 will fit the dist will fit the cam spacing and bearing locations are the same, the lifters are stock ford size with the same thrust plates that all used the 289 302 main bearings and a honda size rod bearing are still being used. The ford 351c valve covers will fit all the yates style heads the standard ford type fuel pump is still used, the head bolt patters is still the same as stock 289 351. the same bellhousing is used. Dont believe me we have several sets of yates heads here along with nascar ford blocks oil pans pulled of bush or cup cars. Ford is still racing with many things that were used in everyday cars and anyone can buy and use today. That is a fact unlike everyone elses NASCAR engines. Yes the heads being raced today will fit any small block 302 to 351 along with the majority of small parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac70 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 If you want to unload a set of those yates heads let me know which ones they are. The ls1 is very similar to the Cleveland in a whole lot of ways. I wish I could run my cleveland in my tsrs car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Tom, I can remember back in the early 90's when no one really had anything out for the injected Mustangs. There was a certain "backyard machine shop" that did some mean port work on the upper & lower intakes. What sticks in my mind was that trick work on the upper and the flow #'s. Boy those were some good times... It does amaze me as Tom has said that those Toyota motors are destroyed. I understand why, so no one can see what they are doing, but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted August 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Im so glad to see this subject is being talked about again. Ive always been a Chevy guy but I know the Fords are BAD to the bone. My question for Tom is " Can the 347 stroker be built at a reasonable price (compared to the Chevys) and be equal in HP and reliability? I have a feeling they can be. Also...What car can we put these in so that they can run in the "Super Stock" type class. I know we have talked about this before. I know the Mustang is a "Short Wheelbase " car but why cant some adjustments be made so that they can be run in that class. There are a lot of the Mustangs out there. I really think these would be great motors to put in the "Truck" class. Lets keep this topic going. Any ideas out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Papa, Even John & Tom's 306's are quick/fast. A stroker motor in a truck would be scary... As far as Mustang being out there, it will be interesting to see what there value does here in a few months. I have that '83 listed in the classifieds that one of those 347's would drop in perfect... As far as the LS-1, someone can do some incredible things with one. Heck, I have seen one in a Miata w/ a 6 speed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted August 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Mark Im talking about the 347 with the cast iron GT heads. From what Ive been told it would be real close to the Chevys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 My question for Tom is " Can the 347 stroker be built at a reasonable price (compared to the Chevys) and be equal in HP and reliability? The Pro Late Model Ford engines, such as the McGunnegil, are 347 Strokers. And they are front running anywhere you go. They make an excellent street engine, such as a muscle car or a street rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Tom, In a previous life, I drove Ford drag race cars and built a few engines along the way. I remember the problem as the lifter galleys also feed the mains. There were two common solutions. One was to bush the lifter bores and reduce the oiling hole. Another way to accomplish the same sort of thing was to tap and use screw in restrictors in the internal passages. (conceptually like restricting the flow on the back of the galleys in the sbc). The second was to use an external oil line from the filter pad (galley hole plug) up to the oil sending unit port. Some did both but I also seem to remember that you couldn't get a juice cam to work with the restrictors. Don't take any of this as gospel with getting an up to date Ford wrenchs opinion...just working from memory . Jay The fix on the clevland engineis to use a hi pressure spring with a stock pump. Ran many 9 second drag race passes in he late 1980 to 1990 with the clevland engine with no bearing failures. Whats funny the new GM LS engines oils just like the Ford clevland did. Well the aftermarket will fix that for them. Also check out the 10 bolt in the heads and almost a perfect match on the head gasgets from the 302 351 ford and the LS GM engine. Wonder if the Ford engineers went to GM. Semetrical intake ports and exhaust just like the ford heads also. Even a cam thrust plate, Suprise Suprise. Fords maybe had it figured out 40 years ago. interesting ....and agree on your point about the GM engine "geometry" moving toward FOMOCO rather than the reverse. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 I was thinking the only way to get a 347 was a stroked 302? I guess I am fixing to get schooled... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 If you want to unload a set of those yates heads let me know which ones they are. The ls1 is very similar to the Cleveland in a whole lot of ways. I wish I could run my cleveland in my tsrs car Call John Hamilton at Mission Auto he has three sets of yates heads including blocks cranks valve train parts that can be finished any way you want them or sold bare if you want to finish them all are CNC heads off ARCA cup or bush and truck engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 I was thinking the only way to get a 347 was a stroked 302? I guess I am fixing to get schooled... You can stroke the 302, 3.200 or 3.400 very common or destroke the 351 C or 351 W The advantage or the 302 style motors is the light weight but you are linited to the rod length because the short deck heigth 8.200 compaired the 9.200 0r 9.500 blocks. Would love to build a 3.400 stroke 4..060 bore Ford for TSRS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 I was thinking the only way to get a 347 was a stroked 302? I guess I am fixing to get schooled... If you have the money, you can have 347 about any way you want. But the common 347 Stroker kit for the Ford is a 3.4 inch stroke crank, and .030 bore on the 302 block. The 302 is 3" stroke, with a 4" bore. I have a couple friends with those conversions in street cars, and they love them. Both turn them near 7,000 on occasion, but usually stay around 65-6700. The engine builds great torque, which has always been a trait of Ford engines. I am trying to talk an old friend out of a 66 Fairlane he has sitting, and the 347 would be perfect for that car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasghamilton Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 <babbling on>..... DART racing blocks: chevy $1806.95 ford $2264.95 <babble....babble> not sportsman class, but another example........ Why not go to Keith Caft and buy a new Ford SVO block for 1260.00 today and not lead everyone to believe all Ford parts to be out of sight. The best GM rods that are used in our Ford cost the same as GM along with same price pistons valve valve springs crankshaft timinng set. Still cant see very little cost differance between a Good Ford or Good GM engine. Just have to find good places to get the hard parts. Did you know the Ford small block and GM small block uses the same part number replacement timing chain. Never had a Ford break like you see on GM because the cam core on the ford is much stiffer along with larger lifters. Have seen probally 15 to 20 over the last 16 years on GM break to none on Ford. Must have lots less harmonics on the Ford along with a real thrust plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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