turn4 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Ok, the 37 car is leading, he get's loose out of turn 2 (i think) and the 58 car takes over. Next lap, the 37 ram's into 58 in turn 3. The 37 is Black Flagged for rough driving. (remember the SS #8 last weekend). How could the officials place any blame on the (58) Matt? This would have been the perfect time to implement the "All Involved" rule with exceptions...........Nick? THR, please look at these situations and rule accordingly. Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 i don't know what to say,nothing i want to say to describe the thr interpretation of this rule could survive the edit... HOW IN THE HELL- do you black flag a guy for taking out the leader,then put the leader to the back...you're saying by black flagging him he blaintly took the leader out...i don't understand it- and you guys ain't got a clue....no ammount of double talk could explain this...if i was matt i would not be trying to sell my car now (like sooooo many others that feel they got screwed).. i just flat out would not be coming back...i would'nt punish myself for an idiotic interpretation-of a backwards ass rule...i would just head on down the highway....and apology by the officials-AFTER such a B.S. call is not gonna cut it nick...it's comparing apples to oranges-but say after the street stock race last week,doug ripple came over to you and said "whew,sorry nick i made a bad call on that one,sorry bobby did'nt mean hurt your car i just made a bad judgement call...would you in return say "don't worry about it doug we'll see ya next week..... WHAT THE HELL ARE YA'LL TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63Y Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 thats exactly what I was trying to explain...but in another topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63Y Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 a profesionally run racetrack, all racing decisions are done by starter and his assistant (flagman and asst.) that all involved rule has GOT to go. Leave the decision up to the flagman and if they need help ask the tower. As it is now...I would NEVER want to lead a race at THR. You may as well run third and just wait for the 1st and 2nd place guys to get put to the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waddell Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 i agree with crazyhorse about everything he said, everyone that saw that last night was totally pissed matt got the shaft, nick you , brian, jim or jack should have the stepped up and made the right call you all have the authority to make to just tell the people thats the call and we stick by it i was in the stands and the people went crazy and about 50 people just got up and left, you own and run the track take charge of it and when it is so obvious even to the layman just make the right call... iv,e seen you all make the wrong call and say that the way it,s going to be and we have to live by it even if it is aganst a rule you have the oblagation to the driver that it,s for everybody will understand if not just claim exectutive privledge, i know you have a hard job and my hats off to you all. waddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The_Greek Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 my personal opinion on what to do about cautions, and who to send to the back is. you have to DETERMINE what STARTED the caution? who or what started the incident? and that car should be sent to the back. ive never been a fan of the all involved rule. one thing people forget is the lead car has the preferred line, its the cars behind them that have to figure out a way around him. i will say one other thing, if you are leading the race and u push or get loose going into a turn and the next car gets under you, and the lead car comes back down on him, then the leader should go to the back. btw i hope Romco will take a closer look at some of their rules and calls also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mototerry Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Ouote from Nick last week. Â "Let me ask you this, mototerry, how would going back to the "at fault" rule fix anything you have brought up?" Â Well Nick......After last night, you tell me... Â I joined the disscusion last week after the absolutely horrendous call that sent the SS 02 car to the rear because of the all involved rule.......The rule is flawed in several ways. I agree with almost all of the reasons being pointed out by both the drivers and other fans. To me, the most basic of all without going into deep analysis is it simply goes against common sense. The officiating corp may be happy because it makes their job easier but I can tell you this without any hesitation. The fans (like me, I'm not a driver) have never been more disgusted and angry. I know, I've been going to the local track since my Daddy started taking me to the old dirt track in Oak Hill in the 50's. I was there at Speed-O-Rama in the 60's. Came back from thew Navy and Vietnam in the 70's to Ricky Ware's "Beeeeeee There"....I was there for the Stewart years and even for poor ol Sam Hill's (no offense Sam, bad timing) shot at it. Never have I seen fans as a group so united in disgust. The fan's have and always will question calls......That occurs in every sport that combine standard rules like "The first car across the finish wins" and judgement calls like "did a car violate anothers right to fair competition by causing him/her to spin or wreck?" The all involved removes that right to fair competition. Without question the sport is flawed. I don't care if SAS or the VFW bicycle motorcross use it or not. That doesn't change the fact that the rule undermines the competition. And that my good friends is what I pay my money to see....Competition. The drivers are concerned because they never know when the next "incident" is going to be their ticket to the rear for just being in the wrong place. The fans are concerned because we keep wasting $12 to pay for that ticket. Nick, how many more nights like the last two is it going to take??? It's time to make the right call..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobby74 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 So does anybody know what is happening with Tommy D.? I saw him and matt hodge in the red trailer after the races. Is the 37 car getting the treatment that the SS Doug Ripple got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie37 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 All they did was DQ him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 All they did was DQ him? You have got to be kidding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie49 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 I have never been to THR, wanted to go last night, but had another engagement. So my $0.02 might not be worth spit, but if 1/2 of the incident as reported here is true, that (37) guy deserves a 2-4 wk suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 That is an idiotic rule...at least add "protect the leader"...but it still will be an idiotic rule...I would rather the officials blow a call than just decide not to make a call...it is just beyond comprehension to me as a competitor... Â If I was in a bank when it was robbed would I go to jail because the authorities didn't want to make an effort to figure things out? Â Officials will make mistakes...not taking responsibility to make a call is unforgiveable...it's Un-American!!! Â Where did this rule come from? France!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 I have never been to THR, wanted to go last night, but had another engagement. So my $0.02 might not be worth spit, but if 1/2 of the incident as reported here is true, that (37) guy deserves a 2-4 wk suspension. Â Who knows, maybe one of his sponsors will have a talk with him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenLRoyal Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Why do we even have officals if they have a rule like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker36 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Personally the all invovled rule is fine but only if it is used like this: Â 1. Only the 2 or 3 cars that actually braught out the caution should go to the back nobody that spins to miss the wreck should go to the back. Nick stated in the drivers meeting that he plans on trying something like this. Â 2. The leader or any other car should not go to the back if he is deliberately taken out as in the 58's case. Sometimes you cant tell if the driver deliberately took the other drivers out but last night you could tell. Â I would much rather see the all invovled than judgement calls made cause when the judgement call is used your relying on the officals to make the right call. Where as if the use a all invovled based rule with judgements made on certain incidents it will cut down on the bad calls. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 I have read about all these complaints on the all involved rule this year. In all years past I heard all the complaints about the track playing favorites and letting "their buddies" have their places back. In years past, I was appauled everytime I attended a race at THR because, their was always someone being put back into their position after a spin, but it didn't seem consistent from the stands. One time a guy gets spun and goes to the back the next time the opposite. No consistency. Don't know anyone that races at THR, so can't play favorites. Â Ya'll have been racing with the "Placing the blame on one person or another rule" for quite a long time. Maybe you should let this "all-involved rule" have a few years before you decide to scrap it. Â Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 I have explained the all involved rule in detail on many occasions and the rule is there in black and white for all to read. Â I announced in the driver's meeting that there THR is adding another portion to the "all involved" rule effective 8/14/o4. Jim, Brian, Jack, David, Kathy and I have been discussing and revising this new portion to the rule for the past two months and we agreed on the final version of the rule last week. Â The new section is quoted below. Â "3. If, a car spins to miss the incident the brings out the yellow and is clearly not involved in any way in the incident that brings out the yellow and, in the opinion of the Competition Director, clearly attempts to avoid the incident but makes contact with the cars the involved anyway, that car may be reinstated at the discretion of the Competition Director. " Â Any set of rules is flawed and will never cover all situations. All any of us can do is to do our best to be unbiased and try to enforce the rules as written. Â Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dixielady Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 i have been in the "make the call" seat..in the past..and it is very difficult to send someone to the back if they were involved..but not actually at fault..for the yellow/caution  sometimes cars spin when avoiding the problem and they hit something or they do not hit anything..there are alot of things to consider when making a "split second" desicion on the all inclusive rule..please be patient with your directors while they try to make the best desicions for each incident  remember..hind sight is almost always 20/20  i am glad to see the revision to the rules and i am looking forward to help in showing everyone that the rules can be followed and it should be for the good of the many  there are always a few who do not agree  that's racing  mj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 So what was the reason the 58 got sent to the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 no one is saying scrap it-but don't lay down and snuggle with either...how hard is it to realize that "all involved" does not mean literally all the time.... only in the instance that an accurate decision cannot be made...i to i have seen this rule at other tracks...but they use it properly...they DO NOT rely on it...i personally have not even been effected by this rule-YET , but the day is coming,it's coming for everyone of us...you think i'm bitching now... also after the race last night you almost had another fist fight...don't you think matt would have been a little more forgiving of t if you guys would'nt have BLOWN THE CALL.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhorse Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 it's roughly 80% of us (the drivers)who don't agree..that's not a few..that's called majority... remember us, the drivers..the ones putting on the show with absolutely no say in any proceedings anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinmcgee Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Maybe if 80% of the drivers don't show up for a few weeks these guys will get the message??? I saved $12.00 bucks last Sat night by staying home and watching the Busch race!!! No wonder local race tracks are closing everywhere!!! I won't be back until the rule is gone or changed considerably. When the leader gets hit and sent to the back its not racing to me any more. See ya in S/A next week!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Maybe if 80% of the drivers don't show up for a few weeks these guys will get the message??? I saved $12.00 bucks last Sat night by staying home and watching the Busch race!!! No wonder local race tracks are closing everywhere!!! I won't be back until the rule is gone or changed considerably. When the leader gets hit and sent to the back its not racing to me any more. See ya in S/A next week!!!!! Marvin, Â Last time I checked, SAS uses the "all involved" rule too. Â And, as I announced in the drivers' meeting last Saturday, we have made a revision to the rule which I quote below: Â "3. If, a car spins to miss the incident the brings out the yellow and is clearly not involved in any way in the incident that brings out the yellow and, in the opinion of the Competition Director, clearly attempts to avoid the incident but makes contact with the cars the involved anyway, that car may be reinstated at the discretion of the Competition Director. " Â For what it's worth, we are also researching a revision that deals with the race leader. Â Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 I don't have a real dog in this THR fight but that doesn't DQ me from expressing the following opinion... A leader that is made basically "untouchable" by rule is un-pass-able on a tight race track most nights. The lineup will start to dictate the results. High point average racers starting in the back and fans will grow weary of this weekly freighttrain really quickly. Just my experiences from running a weekly show where last weeks winner and the season points leader started last every night. Remember, if there was ONE all powerful, absolutely ok with everyone, greatest method on Earth, way to deal with this issue, every short track in America would be using it and no other. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REBELRACER Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 SO IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED AT SAS THAT CHASED ALL OF THE DRIVERS AWAY............I ALWAYS WONDERED WHY ALL OF THE DRIVERS QUIT BRINGING THEIR CARS OUT AND STARTED SELLING THEM, NOW I GUESS IT MAKES MORE SENSE............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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