badsonic Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 This has been a hot topic in many other forums, but this is a serious matter. I have seen REB and a few others bring up topics about the drivers fire safety protection in case of a fire. If you take safety to the extreme, good for you, but do you know if your local track is doing their part? Does your track have the man power, proper equipment, rescue knowledge in case of a big fire? If you are in a helpless situation remember you depend on rescue/track workers to pull you out alive!!! Watch this!!! http://youtu.be/8oLVxSwhyzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 badsonic, I know you and I may disagree on a certain NA$CAR driver(LOL).....but we see eye to eye on this... There are several of us very involved in fire/safety issues besides myself...Paul Lapaire(RBSF), Greg Dinsmore(8G racing Family), Steve Smith(Brazos Roofing) and some others who escape me at this time..... Sadly I still see things like no fire extinguishers in everyone's pits, no drivers gloves(or full suits in some cases) and some that will still race at tracks that lack proper safety personnel on-site...and that's just the tip of the iceberg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badsonic Posted April 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Sadly I still see things like no fire extinguishers in everyone's pits, no drivers gloves(or full suits in some cases) and some that will still race at tracks that lack proper safety personnel on-site...and that's just the tip of the iceberg... I totally agree, I've seen guys test at tracks with no workers, ambulances, fire trucks and yet the track rents out the facility at the RACERS OWN RISK. BTW Rowdy rules lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertx Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 That was unreal the first guy got there pretty quick but went to the back of the car and I don't no what the reat of them were doing worst crew I have ever seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Two things you have to understand. First and foremost this was a prime example of wcs - worse case scenario. Second - in this case the first responders were probably spot safety responders (like corner workers) - PROBABLY (but then again....) - that is they were individuals placed in spots - team work is hard to accomplish when such individuals are the first response. My brother (a fire chief) and I reviewed this several times. The first guy to approach may have been well trained - and his trained SOP is to create a path of egress/digress, lower the volatility of the entire fuel load, and create a safe way for the second to perform the quick extraction. This by looking at what the second guy did - he did sweep a path (doesn't work to go in with no exit strategy) and got onto the driver - but the extinguishers were short lived! The first guy got a new bottle - but clearly had to struggle with the pin - then even after getting that bottle deployed - it seemed to fail real quick like maybe not up to maintenance. By the time others arrived - most of these responders were not firefighters - but crew, bystanders etc - who generally tend to follow the lead of the most visable firefighter. SO it could have been simply that failure on the first guys second bottle that did the most damage to the effort! If that second bottle had deployed quickly and stayed going the onrush of new bottles may have focused more on the driver. Shows the importance of equipment being in top shape and adequate. The most amazing part (and in our opinion the biggest failure) is you can clearly see the fire truck as the camera sweeps from the big screen to the corner... it was already dang near in hose reach but never deployed any of it's supressants until the final couple seconds of the video. Assuming the hose comes off the front - it was aimed AWAY from the track to begin with - so could not deploy from even a stationary position!!! And access to the track access point not even 300 away was blocked by other vehicles and barricades. NOT good preparedness! We could not tell where those first two guys came from. Would hate to think they were assigned to the truck...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGural Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 The tracks are doing so much better now, but still lots more could be done. It concerns me to often see the fire and safety folks show up at the tracks for opening ceremonies. We practice all day and would be on our own, if and when a serious accident like this one would occur. Maybe it's too cost prohibitive to have all day coverage, but is there a backup plan in place? Are heavy duty-fire extinquishers track-side with people who know how to use them? Maybe free passes for volunteer EMTs who are available during practice? As a suggestion, each race the pit steward or a group of safety volunteers walk the pits and check each team for fire extingishers. I know we have ours, but often forget to sit it out and check that it's still good. A friendly reminder to each crew would be a way to make it safer and raise awareness. Those who repeatably arrive without required safety equipment, should not be allowed to race. I'd be willing to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Maybe there could be a training date to give a class on this for the drivers and crews that are at the track testing without a safety crew. EVERYONE should know how to approch and contain a fire. Even a simple thing like how to operate a fire extingusher. There is never enough safety training. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 At my old home track - no cars rolled EVER unless there was a fire crew and ambulance at the track and ready to roll. This meant practice, and off day "private practice" sessions as well. Of course we had our own "fire department" with truck and a twin agent system, owned by the Association and crewed by a great bunch of 10 volunteers (not VFD - they volunteered and trained at their own expense specifically for motor sports even taking our rig to other tracks during our off weekends). The truck and perimeter bottles were sponsered by a local fire equipment company, so always had the latest stuff to display as well as use. Every year at the first race we had a demonstration of their capabilities by torching and responding to a junkyard donor. The fans LOVED it, the drivers recieved plenty of assurance AND THE TEAM GOT GOOD WORTHY PRACTICE! During any on track activities (except a dmo derby) the truck was stationed infield parked in an enclave of kwalls. Check their response time on this one: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMRacer89 Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 That was about the only thing that made me go after my wreck at THR last September. Granted there were a million things going through my head, but I don't recall seeing any emergency crews at the track. Thankfully, there were still a number fast moving drivers, crew members, and track officials. I do applaud the constant efforts to increase safety, such as mandating HANS-type devices, but that one thing stuck out to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Pipsqueek78 aka Adam McCosh: Please allow me to use my 53 years of racing experience and reflect on your rollover last September wherein you wrote and posted: "After my wreck at THR last September, I don't recall seeing any emergency crews at the track". You and others paid hard money at the pit gate with the expectation that trained and equipped emergency crews would be hired and present at the track to save the lives of drivers. Your statement is very discouraging. "Thankfully, there were still a number fast moving drivers, crew members, and track officials". It can be assumed that while they were well meaning persons, they were likely not trained and equipped emergency crews. "I do applaud the constant efforts to increase safety, such as mandating HANS-type devices". A HANS devise would not have helped you. I was told by qualified people who were present that you had the good instincts to remain seated while up-side-down and not release your seat belts until your car was hand rolled to its wheels. To have released your seat belts, you would have fallen on your helmet and possibly broken or compressed your neck. A HANS devise is not effective protection for falling on your head. A HANS devise is designed to protect the driver from rapid forward or backward acceleration of the head due to a violent forward or backward collision. Anyone who thinks a HANS devise would have protected you, in this instance, is very much uninformed. Many racers I know would like to see local tracks match their costly driver safety rules and requirements by paying for and adding the following safety facilities: 1. Install safer barriers on all hard walls and 90 degree earth banks. 2. Require all safety crew and gas sales personnel to wear appropriate fire-proof apparel. 3. Add and pay for full safety crews, emergency and EMS personnel at all times when the track is operating practice and race sessions. 4. Providing an experienced starter in the flag stand for all green flag racing or practice activity. To do otherwise, the track exposes itself to very costly legal liability and law suits and its drivers to greater injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhcougs Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 Many racers I know would like to see local tracks match their costly driver safety rules and requirements by paying for and adding the following safety facilities: 1. Install safer barriers on all hard walls and 90 degree earth banks. 2. Require all safety crew and gas sales personnel to wear appropriate fire-proof apparel. 3. Add and pay for full safety crews, emergency and EMS personnel at all times when the track is operating practice and race sessions. 4. Providing an experienced starter in the flag stand for all green flag racing or practice activity. To do otherwise, the track exposes itself to very costly legal liability and law suits and its drivers to greater injury.[/b] I'm really curious as to your opinion of no. 4, most race directors don't want a starter acting without there commands during a racing situation... However I can see the value of one during practice activity. Having spotters who are where they can see the starter or lights is also important as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 UHCOUGS: What I meant by item #4, “Providing an experienced starter in the flag stand for all green flag racing or practice activity” was mainly directed at tracks who hold practice sessions without a flagman in the flag stand or even anyone to operate the caution lights. This is an obvious dangerous situation which is usually justified as a cost reducing track policy. Thank you, Neil Upchurch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMRacer89 Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 Yeah Neil, the biggest reason I brought the HANS up was that the initial impact was pretty big; that's most force I think my body's ever experienced in the 22 years it's been on this Earth that I can remember, and all I had protecting my neck was a foam "donut". While everything did its job perfectly, I think I've also pushed my luck as far as I can, and can't imagine what a similar hit would be like in a Super Stock or Late Model. As far as your list, I agree with everything, but especially #1; I'm all for a SAFER barrier on that backstretch. That dirt mound probably moved about as much as a concrete wall would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badsonic Posted April 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 One of REB's old post 8 years ago, and admire him at what hes done over time on pushing the fire/safety and sadly the driver passed later that evening. http://www.lonestarspeedzone.com/forums/in...ed&pid=2862 During any on track activities (except a dmo derby) the truck was stationed infield parked in an enclave of kwalls. Check their response time on this one: link That was pretty quick very nice!!! Neil has brought up some very good points he's probably seen it all with his experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 I love safety topics like this one, but let's keep specific tracks out it and keep things general. If anyone feels the need to bring specific issues to the attention of a particular track, please contact them directly. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaChief Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 We had an issue at our track this year 1st race. The #2 of John Bolen broke something in the right front going into 3 and shot straight into the wall. When he hit the wall it sheared the control arm off and the frame collapsed into the engine shearing off the fuel line from the fuel pump. His car is pinned along the wall in the middle of 3 & 4 and it erupts into flame. We are stationed right in the middle of the back straight and made a quick response. As we get there John has gotten out of the car and is safe. One of our deputies grabbed an ext and went to try to put out the fire. This is just seconds before we arrive. The fuel is flowing good and we get it out after about 2-3 minutes. We finally get the fuel stopped by taking 2 vice grips and clamping the fuel line at the tank. Here are some of the pictures that were taken by my good friend Anna Denton: Notice the fuel is flowing between his legs One of my guys getting the hotfoot due to not paying attention to the flowing fuel A few things that I have addressed with our safety personnel 1. If you are not fire personnel dont try to put out a fire on track. 2. stay off the track if not safety personnel. 3 Be aware of where the fuel is flowing while putting retardant on the fire. We carry 100 gallons of foam on our truck, 4 PKP 25lb Ext, 4 25lb ABC ext, 2 water Ext, and 2 30 lb Class D ext. We also have 25 lb ABC ext placed around the track and in the pits. Extrication equipment is also on our truck. We took care of the situation with no injuries but I did not like having to worry about people trying to do what they thought was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 You are to be commended 'bama. Sounds well equiped and ready. Out of curiosity where does the $$ to maintain your equip come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 While it pleases me to see others becoming more involved/interested in fire/safety issues, as well as referencing me/my previous posts.....It saddens me that WE still need to even have these discussions to begin with.... I know there are tracks out there struggling just to keep their gates open, I'm hoping fire/safety personnel/equipment aren't ever part of cost reductions..... I've mentioned to a couple tracks in the past.....What's more cost effective.....the few hundred bucks you may have to spend on fire/ems crews on-site or the potential for a multi-million dollar lawsuit for not having them..... As far as disturbing, the incident at the old Alamo Dragstrip was viewed by me from a scissor lift in the SAS infield, quite a distance away.....Even worse was being 25' from the incident in Abilene that cost Ryan(Bard) his life.....and Abilene did have appropriate fire crews on hand..... There have been several tracks that have increased their emergency personnel since then, and drivers that have upgraded their own personal fire/safety equipment.....KUDOS to them.. Paul Lapaire(RBSF) also has been traveling to track with a rollover simulator(Flippr) to bring more awareness to just being prepared....I know on July 3rd(Sunday) at Texas Thunder he will be there and I urge as many of you as possible to get up there and check it out....give it a try.....doesn't cost you a penny and the only thing that might get hurt is your pride(in this scenerio anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBSF Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 There's almost nothing I can think of to add to this thread other than: THANKS, from the bottom of my heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaChief Posted April 24, 2011 Report Share Posted April 24, 2011 You are to be commended 'bama. Sounds well equiped and ready. Out of curiosity where does the $$ to maintain your equip come from? When I agreed to do the track safety I wanted to have the right equipment. Our track owner got us a Ford 4 door dually from his other business and he let me set it up the way I wanted to. I have a deal with our local extinguisher company swapping out advertising at the track and in return they provide us with 5 new extinguishers a year and 10 free refills at no charge. All the lighting on the truck was also swapped for advertising. Any other issues gets paid for by the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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