TGural Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 The TI states the carburetors in question have been modified and are not box- stock Holley 4412 carburetors. The reason for this post is to help prevent our fellow racers from being disqualified for this infraction. Other racers have requested we send this info out also. You should be especially concerned if you have an older Holley 4412, even if it's checked to be legal in the past. Holley modifies 'Box-Stock' Carbs. Here's what we found out... 1) Holley manufactures & sells the 4412 as a '500 CFM Universal' carb for general automotive use. It is not considered a 'Race Spec' carb. 2) It is built to perform within the following specs. 3) At anytime during production, Holley has and will modify the carb to perform within these specs. 4) At this time, Holley is unable to provide us or THR officials documentation to identify which carbs have been modified. 5) We own multiple 'stock' carbs with the modification of brass inserts in the idle circuit, pictured below. Another competitor had them & it's very possible more are out there. This is directly from Holley... "4412's built today do not have the idle restrictions in the main body. At any time a running change can be made in production. All we can guarantee is the bore and throttle plate size and even that can be a + or - a 4412 Venturi @ top is 1.373" to 1.377" @ bottom is 1.686" to 1.687"and throttle plate is 1 11/16". Also all this restriction effects is Idle and a restriction in any passage cannot make more power.", Ricky Richter-Holley Tech Service It would be good to report if you find these in your carb or if you have more information on this subject. Being educated on this, makes us not trust any Holley carb, unless it's a 'Race Spec' version or if someone out there has a list of modifications done over the years. Otherwise, our only guarantee to be legal, would be always owning the latest carb identical to the one tech officials use as their baseline. There are always ongoing changes or improvements made in most any product, that could be considered a modification at anytime. The brass idle inserts can be seen in this photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Moon Motorsports Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 So, just to make sure I understand correctly, per THR Tech, ANY Holly 4412 Carb with the brass inserts is ILLEGIAL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I appreciate the effort that Tommy has gone through to get the facts about this issue and I doubly appreciate that he is in no way attacking THR or the THR tech department. He is simply giving fellow racers a heads up that they had better check their carbs. Fair enough. But this is one of those threads that can easily disintergrate into a bash session and I have no intention whatsoever of letting that happen. Thoughtful, helpful discussion? Fine. Attacks on Jack or THR? Not permitted. Bashing a tech decision? Not permitted. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightmoves 99 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Hope ours is legal, we opened the box and bolted it on. That would drive me crazy, building the car and engine well within the rules given and getting found illegal because of a "box stock" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGural Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Nick, thanks! Definitely appreciate THR allowed an appeal of the TI, with the info we received from Holley. THR spent time, did considerable research, and had several discussions before making their final decision. Can't say we're happy with the outcome, but it could've happened to anyone. Hopeful more info or clearer rules, can be obtained over time, so it doesn't happen to anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 This a real tough topic. I have a ton of respect for Tommy, so this has nothing to do him. I have put my hands on many 4412 carbs from dang near antique to ones produced within the past 3 years. I have yet to see one come straight from Holley with restrictors in those idle circuit holes unless it was an HP model. The carb in the picture has at least two different areas that I can see that indicate it has been modified post-production. That being the case, I am only saying it can't be used as a good example of one that came from Holley like this. That may not have been the intent, but it seems to be. I'm not even certain that the Holley tech man is correct in his statement that restricting this passage cannot make more power. The intent of that mod is to lessen the amount of fuel pulled from the idle circuit at high vacuum periods. That certainly can be beneficial in some on-track conditions other than idle depending on the motor combination. Respectfully submitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 So is that carb basically trash now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 So is that carb basically trash now? As far as the inserts, they can be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundogC3 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I have allways bought the 4412 C/T, and it does not have those little dohickeys. C/T- circle track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGural Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 This a real tough topic. I have a ton of respect for Tommy, so this has nothing to do him. I have put my hands on many 4412 carbs from dang near antique to ones produced within the past 3 years. I have yet to see one come straight from Holley with restrictors in those idle circuit holes unless it was an HP model. The carb in the picture has at least two different areas that I can see that indicate it has been modified post-production. That being the case, I am only saying it can't be used as a good example of one that came from Holley like this. That may not have been the intent, but it seems to be. I'm not even certain that the Holley tech man is correct in his statement that restricting this passage cannot make more power. The intent of that mod is to lessen the amount of fuel pulled from the idle circuit at high vacuum periods. That certainly can be beneficial in some on-track conditions other than idle depending on the motor combination. Respectfully submitted. Yes, this is interesting...scratching my head. Tommys knows when and where he purchased these carbs. Guess it's possible parts could've got mixed up over time. We do lend stuff out. He's never purchased an HP carb, and don't think I have either. Don't know anything about them. Regardless, photos of the carbs were sent to Holley and they did not deny these mods could've been made by them, @ Holley 'post production'. Said they could have installed these inserts. Same thing they told THR, could not confirm or deny kinda deal. What are the other areas you're referring to? I would think Holley would be quick to say, someone else messed with this carb, if that were the case. All we do know is, we didn't do it. Maybe we need a NASCAR Official - LOL ...Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Yes, this is interesting...scratching my head. Tommys knows when and where he purchased these carbs. Guess it's possible parts could've got mixed up over time. We do lend stuff out. He's never purchased an HP carb, and don't think I have either. Don't know anything about them. Regardless, photos of the carbs were sent to Holley and they did not deny these mods could've been made by them, @ Holley 'post production'. Said they could have installed these inserts. Same thing they told THR, could not confirm or deny kinda deal. What are the other areas you're referring to? I would think Holley would be quick to say, someone else messed with this carb, if that were the case. All we do know is, we didn't do it. Maybe we need a NASCAR Official - LOL ...Teresa Teresa, to be real clear, I don't doubt anything you just said here. I don't doubt that Holley would say that. They have to give real open-ended answers to questions like this to protect themselves also. You guys posting this for clarification was a good thing and may help several people. I'll tell you this - I dug our carbs out and opened them up just to be sure - even though I have had them open dozens of times before. The problem with me is that we all buy used stuff, and I can never remember from one year to the next exactly where I got this part or that part and what the previous owner had done to it - never hurts to look again just to be sure. You're information is helpful to others in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 INTERESTING . . LEARN SOMETHING EVERY DAY .....I HAVE NOTICED THOSE INSERTS IN ONE OVER THE COUNTER 500,.. DIDNT KNOW WHO ADDED THEM TILL NOW .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGural Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I have allways bought the 4412 C/T, and it does not have those little dohickeys. C/T- circle track. This might be helpful! Tommy purchased his from South Austin Auto Parts and Holley stated this was a 'Universal' carb. There's a theory this mod could have been made in effort to improve fuel economy in production cars, back when this 13+ yr carb was manufactured. If Holley can give us all assurance the C/T model is mod-free, then here's how we could've avoided this issue. C/T may be what he was refering to a 'Race Spec' carb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundogC3 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I have allways bought the 4412 C/T, and it does not have those little dohickeys. C/T- circle track. This might be helpful! Tommy purchased his from South Austin Auto Parts and Holley stated this was a 'Universal' carb. There's a theory this mod could have been made in effort to improve fuel economy in production cars, back when this 13+ yr carb was manufactured. If Holley can give us all assurance the C/T model is mod-free, then here's how we could've avoided this issue. C/T may be what he was refering to a 'Race Spec' carb. Teresa, I bought our newest one from A/P. I think....I over heard Bill talking to Bobby La Fonte Wednesday, that Jack had gotten one of the same carbs from him last year or the year before that he uses to ck our(ALL) carbs with. Bill had told me when I bought the last one from him that Jack had one just like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAPA Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Was this the same issue for LaFonts carb? Simple "Yes" or"No" answer will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I encountered this in the past as a TI for Cajon Speedway. The rules we had said "unaltered Box stock 4412", HOWEVER there are several list numbers used by holley. The expectation when writing the rules was that the racer would interpret the rules as "4412 Race Spec". The 4412C and 4412S are the ONLY "race spec" carbs Holley makes in the line. The 4412-2 shown is NOT a race spec (I believe it is a factory carb from an IH Scout or Travelall) - therefore we found them to be very different across the list numbers. Our determination then was that we needed to spec the C or S - so we ammended the rules and we granted a 4 week deadline for compliance. The reason for the carb rule is to keep costs down. That gets circumvented when the racer with a pile of cash can buy up 8-9 different stock 4412's and pick the best one! Yes I am also aware that this precludes buying one from the bone yard. This is a good place to point out the need for open discussion with the TI - rather than waiting for him to see something himself. There are trade secrets and there are no secrets when it comes to certain parts. Spec parts like carb rules are a no secret item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGural Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Was this the same issue for LaFonts carb? Simple "Yes" or"No" answer will be fine. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemdk Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I went through this with Jack when I bought my carb. Jack is very good about going through it with you and showing you what he doesn't want to see and what he feels is a performance advantage in the HP series vs the stock series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast18 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 After getting a dq on a carb. I took Jack's advice and bought a CT 4412 from A/P. I guess i should check it before I run again just to be on the safe side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorboy Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 This is a great topic, I just checked my 4412 CT and it doesn't have to inserts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertx Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 how much are box stock carbs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmbishop Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 300 to 400 new. Buying one direct from distributor (summit, Jegs etc) they run 285. However it is best to get one that has been "detailed" - that is reassembled with the top end gaskets, small parts and the venturis lined up with the throttle bore (I have seen a ready to run from the factory as much as 1/32 inch off centered). Holley does flow test them so you could go with 285 and hope.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast18 Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 When I bought the CT 4412 from A/P it was about 250.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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