rules, clear or unclear...

[speed demon 7]

How many people believe that rules should be clear, and how many believe you should "read between the lines". Keep it clean, because Nick will kill us all since this is a TOUCHY subject. But I think we need to address this issue now, as rules are being evaluated for next season. I don't have a dog in this hunt, since I am not racing at THR, or HMP. I have an HMP car and plan on running at Speedfest next year. I just want everyones opinion on the rules, how they should be written, should a committee of drivers be involved in the writeing or rewriting of the rules. Shoud local economics play a factor. Like in Houston, the HMP rules were written around the Houston cars that were already in the area and do not conform with THR, but THR does not conform with CRA or Pensacola, and so on. Don't make it a pissing contest, speak your peace, but don't get offended when someone has a different opinion. Everyone knows my opinion, and that is why the Houston rules were written to conform to Houston cars because very few cars from Kyle or San Antonio would make the trip on a regular basis.

[NickHolt]

This is fine as long as it doesn't turn into the same old bitch session about this or that rule and/or this or that interpretation of a rule. This is not the place to lodge complaints. If you want a voice in how the rules are written, have a complaint about a rule or an official, contact the rules maker(s) and/or official directly. I have always found them willing to listen even if they disagree with my pont of view.

 

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a perfect set of rules. There will always be new situations not addressed in the rules, changes in staff, differing interpretations, abiguity and other issues. It always has been this way and it will always be that way in the future.

 

That being said, each year most rules makers attempt to address issues that arose in the previous year and make appropriate changes to the rules. I know Jack, Rick and Mary Ann well enough to know that they will undoubtedly be reviewing their rules before next season. And I also know that bringing the same thing up over and over and over about a particular incident is very counter-productive. If your married, you know what I mean.

 

I also have been around long enough to know that "rules by committee" usually meet the needs of the most influential committee members first and the rest get the short end.

 

Please note: If this thread turns into a bitch session I will remove posts that contain complaints or rehash DQ's, make complaints about the way rules are enforced, complain about the unfairness of this or that rule or this or that tech inspector. If it continues I will close the thread and consider other actions to prevent it from happening in the future.

 

Nick

[Jamie]

I don't have a dog in this fight as I am only a spectator, but I think that tracks should make a better attempt to work together with their rules. I know I read somewhere that tracks would be affraid of losing drivers to other tracks, but with the times that they are now, I think it should be an option.

 

I think that THR and HMP ran on alternating weekends which to me seems to be a step in the right direction. If this was the case, chance of losing a racer to another track seems almost impossible considering the nature of race car driver.

[firemdk]

I think that each class should have a rules committee comprised of the tech director, the track (S) and a couple drivers from each class. Excluding safety rules, the drivers should be able to decide what they want their class to run and what the class will allow. I have to agree with Nick's post in another topic on height. We should do away with the minimum height rule. We have set left side weight, total weight and we're running aero packages that we're spending to much on suspension to make it work. Let's get the drivers together and improve the racing by letting the drivers decide how much they want to spend on upgrades each year to try and level the playing field.

 

I also think that even with the crate motors, they need to be certified by the engine builder in Houston every year. I know that there are people (won't mention names) who have purchased the breakaway bolts and have cheated up the motors beyond the rules.

 

You want to keep that level, have everyone take their motors in or out of the car and have it tested.

[sprintsrule]

Having two drivers help decide the rules for a class would be a huge mistake. Texas Dirt Speedway had a super stock class that had so many cars they had to run B-Mains every week. At the end of the year, a couple of guys went to the management and convinced them they needed to open the rules up a little so the class would be faster. They took off the Marsh recaps which were asphalt casings with dirt tread recaps on them. These tires worked very well because the cars could rub each other and not have the sidewall torn out. We had a car that only needed six tires the entire year. They put wider late model tires on them with the thinner side walls and we used six of those in the first month at about $60 per tire more. They also changed the rocker arm rules and a couple of other small changes that allowed the engines to be turned tighter. Between that and the tire rule change, the horsepower difference in the class was very evident. By the end of the next year, they did not need to run any B-Mains. As a matter of fact they only needed one heat race because they only had six cars left. All of this because a couple of the more vocal drivers wanted to go faster.

[marc200mph]

Never ever ever ever ever ever let the drivers or car owners write the rules!

NEVER!

[firemdk]

we need to have meetings then like HMP did before the season and go through the rules and make suggestions. I know some say just leave them alone and never change them. I personally disagree and think that we need to constantly revamp our rules to make them better.

[marc200mph]

I also have been around long enough to know that "rules by committee" usually meet the needs of the most influential committee members first and the rest get the short end.

Nick

 

Well said Nick, over the years I have watch racers have say in the rules, and the class dies.

[HiTech]

I also have been around long enough to know that "rules by committee" usually meet the needs of the most influential committee members first and the rest get the short end.

Nick

 

Well said Nick, over the years I have watch racers have say in the rules, and the class dies.

yep and tracks have killed classes from useing thier own rules and or lack of fair tecking ..a smart promotor will take in what the majority of drivers want not just a couple and build a good class .. when its only drivers by commitee decideing thats not always good same with promotors ...if the promotor and drivers wont work together you have problems ..it goes both ways ..we worked with frank at cc in 89 through the year he died ..we went from 5 cars to 22 in 1990 ...we had our own rules . we had our own teckman ..and frank worked with us aslong as we didnt go against the track rules. most fun i ever had with racen..alot of the rookies we had that year won a race or more ..same as the next year ...after frank died .the new promotor could not come to terms with what we had . .and that was that ...the class still runs today .but has not had the car count that we had ...

[landlord]

I agree on not letting driver/owners set rules for sure!!!!!If there is anything at all that I have learned in all my years of racing is that there is NO perfect set of rules.There is grey area in any set of rules written and to me the racers job is to find and exploit these grey areas.( as long as its not straight up cheating)There is no better compliment than to get a new set of rules and find one that was written just for you or your team.I personally think that the stock classes should have local rules (like arthur is speaking of) trying to pull off cars already in existence.The modifieds and Late Models should go by the ASA rules.90% of the tracks around America do this and it makes it so nice not to have to change stuff everytime you want to go out of town.For the Late Models at HMP I dont think the rules are broke,they might could use some tweaking but they are definately not broke.I dont work on or race cars in the stock/mod class so I am not going to chime in on them.I'll leave that to the guys that are actually in the trenches.

[hray]

It would not work to try to write a "clear" set of rules. It would be a book. And even then, someone will find gray areas.

[SMason]

I agree with hray,

there is the letter of the rule, and the spirit of the rule and you'd end up with a bunch of subparagraphs to every rule that you'd have a tough time getting everyone to read through and understand.

I know the tech guy at any given track is usually pretty busy away from the track with other things, but I've always thought it would be a good idea for them to pick some dates and do driver seminars to go over the rules and answer questions on how they are interpreted, yes there are different rules for different classes at any track, and new drivers showing up at any given time so it could never be expected to cover every rule for every car with every owner and driver but I think it could go a long way toward clearing some things up.

 

People put on suspension and driving seminars and those that attend them no matter what their experience level can always walk away with some new knowledge, or a better understanding of something they were already familiar with before, so I think it would be beneficial. Yes there will always be some bickering and pig headedness involved, but being grownups I'm sure everyone could get past that and make a lot of progress in helping everyone understand the rules that they are expected to comply with.

 

[Rookie1]

Personally, I don't care who writes the rules. I do think local economics need to be looked at in writing them though, especially in the stock classes. The more affordable the class, the more cars you could have.

 

The more important thing to me is how those rules are interpreted. It needs to be interpreted the same for every driver, period. If the rules are not written very clear, don't change it mid season. Let it go and clarify the rules for next season.

 

To many times i have heard at the tech bay "Well, the intent of the rule was ......". Those intents don't need to be hidden in the rules in some code. They need to be as clear as possible.

[Truck99]

It would not work to try to write a "clear" set of rules. It would be a book. And even then, someone will find gray areas.

 

I agree 100%. The task of writing a perfect set of rules that contain no gray or questionable areas would be next to impossible.

 

The best approach for a new driver or car builder, in my opinion, is to take the rule book, write the tech inspector's phone number on the front page, study the book, and make lots of calls. Everyone has the same access to the clarifiying information and guidance the tech inspector can provide.

 

As glaring deficiencies in the rule become evident over time, small corrections can be made as needed.

[firemdk]

That would work great if the tech man would ever return phone calls or e-mails

[Truck99]

That would work great if the tech man would ever return phone calls or e-mails

 

Not sure which one you're talking about, but I've never had an issue getting in touch with ours. That being said, I agree with your statement that my statement would only work with an accessible tech official.

[wdracing151515]

go Mark, no changes if there are no changers the class can grow and the car count can go up and we might have a place to race next season!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so all you experts go ahead change all the rules so you can spend more money .three years of no rules changes and you will have a class with a full field .so how about some local class rules that are the same HOUSTON,KYLE, CC, RED RIVER .P.S.PLEASE LET SOME BODY THAT KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT RACING WRITE THE RULES . AND PLEASE STICK TO THEM..... THANKS RAYMOND#5#15

[Blue Moon Motorsports]

Drivers/Crew Chief's should not be in charge of making rules.....We will always want to go faster. A primary goal should be equality and an honest effort to control costs. Most racers at Thunder Hill are going the Poor Man Racing route. Opening up the rules precludes those who are struggling to make races within the family budget from racing at all and it allows teams with the financial resources to create dynasties ala Roush and Hendricks. What SHOULD be done is set up tech guidelines where critical componets, ie:valves, heads, carbs, intakes, suspension, are teched the same way across the board at all tracks each series tours at. With the economy in the situation that it is in, lowering costs must occur or car counts will decline.

[Del Harris]

changing rules is a bad thing, unless there may or could be an issue with safety, all classes at hmp and thr have good rules for their track, it would be nice if we could have some common ground between both tracks so we all would have an option to run each week if we want, as it is, we only get to run every other week, other than that, i would leave the rules alone. i think instead of changing rules, before anyone builds a car, my thought would be get with the techman for the track or track's you plan to run, go over the rules for your class with him/her, and if you have any doubt about something in the rules, ask your techman, his definition of the rule. i would not build a car not knowing what i was talking about, let alone not knowing what the techman's talking about, don't start the season with out knowing whats legal in your class, almost alway's bad feelings are brought forth between racers and techmen because someone didn't understand the spirit of the rule or definition thereof. we don't need more rules, we just need to understand the ones we have, better usually means more cost, a lot of people have good idea's, but who is it good for? you have classes that are expensive to be in, and then you have classes that should help that john doe local racer that just like racing because it's fun, keep it affordable. i love racing and the asphalt tracks that we do have in texas, seem to be the best owners and promoters we could ask for, after all, most of us are not going to get rich in our hobbie!!!

 

jmo/del harris

[sandersracing]

Back to the top

Rules should be clear and the tech should be stricked on all rules I have ben to a few track where I have seen some stuff fly that is in plane sight and then get dqd for things not in the rule book.

[thumper]

Rules have done more to hurt racing than any other item.Strict rules are why Fords and Chrys.are left out for the most part.They need help on certain things.I.E. Ford does not make a good stock head or a light small block in the 350 range.But a 347 with a pair of aftermarket heads is as good as a 350 Chev.When you say stock stroke or stock heads,the Fords are out.Wheelbase also has ruined the chance to see Mustangs racing Camaros in a Super Stock class.Too bad,this has fueled drag racing to its superior status over circle track racing.Fact is except for the top classes where almost everything is aftermarket its all about Chevys.You want other brands,they need ceartan things just to be equal.If you want to regulate speed,use the things all stock cars have in common.Carburator size,exaust size,tire size is the easiest way to equalize the field,and suspension pieces are what all cars have in common.When the fastest car cannot use all their power and a slower car can,you have a fair chance for different winners.

 

A good example is the IMCA modifieds.Too many tracks use the basic rules but then make exceptions like no claim,short track bars and other things that increase cost then wonder why the car count is low when sanctioned tracks have many cars.Increase the suspension and use more power.That means better motors.The cost of engines comes from needing reliable engines more than power.Thats why the smart dirt tracks try to run dry slick to save engines.I remember Robert Theser mad at himself when he accidently made a heavy track on occasion saying "Oh no there goes a bunch of motors"Do the same on pavement by using skinny tires or street tires or even re-caps.

 

A bunch of rules about valves,cam lift,and dozens of other things that requires teardowns to check is a poor way to regulate in my book.If you do regular tear downs the leaders get tired.If you dont the others get angry.Dont make a rule you dont want to enforce.A claimer rule is much easier,could be engine,or head or whole car or whatever you want to keep even.Just add a trade along with money and nobody will lap the field.Guarnteed.Ask IMCA.They are the most successful rules in the USA.

 

Also dont let people who have no experience with a class of car make the rules.Too often this has hurt ministock racing across the country.Minis have to accomodate all makes and models to be successful.Thing is minis are the best choice for economic racing right now.Their easy to work on,easy to tow,easy on costs and can be really fast.And the factories are building them.We just have to customise them a little.Anyone who says they are not real race cars has never races a good one.They are usually the second fastest class using the same parts.

 

It doesnt really matter what any of us think,the track owners are going to do what they want anyway.Thats why we cant get the tracks to have the same rules.Its their right,they pay the bills.