HOUSTONLM04 Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 This has nothing to do with cheating, please don’t interpret it that way or turn this into a thread about cheating. I’m interested in opinions regarding post race technical inspection. At short tracks across the country I think it is generally accepted that a disqualification is in order when a competitor is unsuccessful in clearing post race inspection. However, it seems that in some of the larger national series penalties and/or fines are levied. I’m unclear how some of the other sanctions around the country such as IMCA and SCCA handle it. I’m not really concerned with the obvious and blatant violation such as ported heads or a big carburetor but the more minor varieties such as the tenth of a percentage point or the quarter of an inch that are not necessarily a huge advantage but a rules violation nonetheless. As well as the the totally unintentional and innocent mistake on the racers part that occurs from time to time but is still a violation of the rules. Some of this goes to the integrity of the inspection process and some goes to reasonability and there are a lot of hypotheticals that can be considered here so let’s try and keep this on track. Please give your opinion with the basic assumption that the rule book is clear (i.e. height, weight, length, width, limit, etc.) and the violation is clear as well (i.e. too light, too short, too high, too low, over/under the limit, etc.). Please keep the gray area and what if discussion for another thread. Again, this is not about cheating. It’s about non-compliance and the resulting consequence. Should it be black and white or is there room for a judgment call in tech? What is fair? Is it fair to penalize vs. DQ because the violation was “innocent” or minor? Is the penalty in lieu of a DQ fair to those that do comply? Who determines what is minor, innocent or fair with respect to the penalty? My belief is that when a racer presents his/her car for post race inspection and the car does not pass it should be disqualified. Simply put, it's a pass/fail scenario and the penalty for failing inspection is disqualification. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCHUCK Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 My opinion if you are teched and fail it should result in a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 to bad so sad you are dq. that one thing they found is just one of probably many they did not find yet .thow there is always an unintentional situation but you have to make it plain and simple. one tweek here one tweek there and you could have a large tweek .i try eveything i can to be that tweek off just alittle .i probably win more races as the tuner .if i tweek more over the rules .but i dont like being dq .and knock on wood have never been dq . { YET } Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacecar Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 If it appears to be unintentional and minor in performance significance, then a last place finish seems suitable. Perhaps you used aluminum pins to hold your deck lid down, when the rules required steel pins only. Your hood pins were steel. The rules didn't say how to attach the deck lid........ Some Nascar tracks in the Carolina's and Virginia do this (last place finishing position). And some tracks do this even if it was intentional cheating. If it is blatant cheating, then DQ with no points seems suitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kn1ghtblade Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Yeah it would be a shame to loose points if say your tire is loosing air in post tech and your car say comes up 1/4" short on minimum ride hieght.. DQ?? Maybe last place finish suitable I would say so atleast you get some points.. Again that is an unententional situation... Although you could also argue the point that the car should of been built for those instances just in case, but then how competive could the be... Point being there is so much grey area you could dive into, its probably best to keep it just plain simple: Rules violation = DQ no questions.... Less aurgueing and confrontations that way in my opponion since the minors and majors all get treated the same.... Is it really fair probable not but oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 I believe just about any scenario involving the enforcement of rules requires that the enforcers have the ability to use discretion. However, it's also important that someone above or aside from the enforcers oversee their use of discretion to ensure that it is used appropriately. For example, the situation described by K-blade is often encountered in tech, and the inspectors usually allow the car with a flat to air the flat tire up before ride height is checked. Another example might be when the nose piece doesn't clear ride height because of damage incurred during the race. I know at THR this has been overlooked by the tech inspector as a discretionary call so long as the damage was fixed by the next race. I think these are good examples of discretionary calls by tech officials. Aside from minor things like these, I feel that rules infractions should result in a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 That's the way our rules are SS99,we have someone who is "empowered to permit minor deviation from any of the specifiations or impose any futher restrictions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 If it appears to be unintentional and minor in performance significance, then a last place finish seems suitable. Perhaps you used aluminum pins to hold your deck lid down, when the rules required steel pins only. Your hood pins were steel. The rules didn't say how to attach the deck lid........ Say for example the rules say no aluminum suspension parts and you accidentally install an upper a-arm assembly with an aluminum cross shaft. That is, you don't check it with a magnet and assume that it is steel when it’s not. It’s not a significant performance advantage yet it is illegal. Or, say you roll through tech before the race and the car passes the 4” roller just fine but after the race the roller is hitting on the frame rail because a spring collapsed. Along with the hood pin example neither of these are signifigant or intentional but where do you draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacecar Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 You have to have good, detailed rules. More than that, you need a knowledgeable tech official to be constantly wandering the pits to inspect. Pre-race inspection is the key. At that point, you don't have to draw the line in the sand. The inspector could recognize the part before the race and recommend some non-catastrophic action. Post race inspections should catch the blatant cheaters (those that removed lots of weight, or installed a big carb, or ran wider wheels or tires, etc.). Someone could argue that the aluminum (cross-shaft) is not a suspension component. It's not part of the unsprung weight. It doesn't move. Neither is an aluminum weight jack bolt or a sway bar adjuster. Personally, I don't like to use aluminum cross-shafts. They break too easily with minor contact. P.S. We were once disqualified because an 1/8" brake line passed under the frame, and the 4" wheel touched the brake line..... remember that Nick? No car is completely legal by all the rules. I have made this challenge to many racers before, and never failed to find at least one item wrong or questionable on their car. It could be the size of the door numbers or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kn1ghtblade Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 I agree totally pacecar... There is probably never going to be a perfectly legal car no matter what... Something minor or insignificant can be found on all the cars... They key is have officials that can recognise whats insignificant and be able to make their own judgment calls on the minor stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 just like our rulebook states-"Passing Technical Inspection does not guarantee that the vehicle upon futher inspection may be found to be in violation of published guidelines". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast18 Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Brad sounds like you were on the recieving end of a dq...unfortunately I too was bitten by the dq bug twice this season (learned that phrase from SS99). I took it like a man. I learned not to take for granted something is legal without double checking it. I wasn't racing for points but the loss of payout did pinch a little. Something like race damage to the nose or a tire going down is understandable but rules are rules even if it isn't a performance enhancing violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 P.S. We were once disqualified because an 1/8" brake line passed under the frame, and the 4" wheel touched the brake line..... remember that Nick? Actually I don't remember that one, Larry. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though. I've been on both ends of the DQ scenario. My Vega mini stock car was DQ'd at Pan American Speedway for illegal pistons, and another car I had a hand in was DQ'd for modifications to the suspension mounting points. Imagine that! But if anyone thinks tech officials like DQ'ing someone , they should think again. In my opinion, tech should not be a matter of what the tech guy (or race director) figures is minor or major. That line gets very blurry, very fast. If it's illegal, it's a DQ except in the rarest of circumstances. I do feel bad if someone is found with an illegal part that obviously gives no performance advantage. My gut is telling me to overlook it, but as soon as I do, I know that fair and impartial line gets all blurry again. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REBELRACER Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 and another car I had a hand in was DQ'd for modifications to the suspension mounting points. Imagine that is that why it took so long to make the call against eric for his a-arm mounts.......hahaha just messin with ya nick...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Brad sounds like you were on the recieving end of a dq... Nope. Remember what you mother told you about assuming... I'm just interested in the different opinions on this topic, it's more philosophical than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 In my opinion, tech should not be a matter of what the tech guy (or race director) figures is minor or major. That line gets very blurry, very fast. If it's illegal, it's a DQ except in the rarest of circumstances. I do feel bad if someone is found with an illegal part that obviously gives no performance advantage. My gut is telling me to overlook it, but as soon as I do, I know that fair and impartial line gets all blurry again. Nick Holt Well said, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 HOUSTONLM04: You bring an important subject to our attention. The Texas Pro Sedans adopted a new penalty policy before the first 2002 race. We have practiced it since then. The penalty policy holds that minor infractions (technical or procedural) will not be disqualified. Instead, minor infractions in TPS are dealt with by penalizing the offending car or driver to the rear of his lap serial. Following are two examples. At the last 2002 race, under a red flag at San Antonio Speedway, a driver exited his car and walked into the infield. He returned with a crewman who re-installed him back into his car. In the pre-race meeting all drivers were instructed that under red, they were to stay in their car (unless otherwise instructed), that crew could not walk out to their car and could not work on their cars under a red flag condition. This car finished second of eight cars on the lead lap of the feature race. The penalty which was issued to the offending driver and crewman was to penalize the car from second to eighth. During a 2006 eight lap qualifying heat race at Thunder Hill Raceway, eight cars started. Two of them wrecked on lap three. The remaining five cars finished on the lead lap. The first three cars were weighed. The second place car was significantly light by more than ten pounds and was penalized from second to sixth. The Texas Pro Sedans penalty policy would be greater if the infraction examples set forth here were greater. Fortunately, we haven't had a top finisher found to have done major infractions - YET ! We will issue more major penalties if we do. Neil Upchurch Race & Administrative Director Texas Pro Sedans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REBELRACER Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 that is probably one of the reasons tps has the car count it does, the rules are enforced and the punishment is fair......that is a good practice you guys have, that way if a guy happens to be illegal by no fault of his own intentions, the night wont be a total loss for him and he will be back to race again, rather than being pissed off about being dq'ed and never returning again........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ups88john Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 cheating is cheating, taking out wieght or alum. hood pins its all cheating. you all have a rule book in front of you, and if you (pacecar) cannot follow it, shame on you. it is not the tech officials job to make sure YOU are legal, it is his/her job to make sure you are not ILLEGAL. we all know what is right and what is wrong, and yes some racers choose to stretch the rules to the fullest extent, after all that is our job, just dont be mad when you get popped on a questionable ruling. big john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiTech Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 while building the 7 car we were in contact with neil alot .we sent pic s .and he would let us know what was and was not in our best interest .some ideals we took and some we didnt .the bottom line is he worked with us to make sure our car was on the up and up .and the first night that car ran i had the tps teck man look at something on our car to make sure is was not against the rules after further inspection and talking with neil it was deamed ok .so something may be just alittle overboard or not in the rules or questionable .have it checked .could save you money in the long run .we had a teck man at cc if he saw something that he thought might be just alittle off .he would tell you it should not be there next week and he would note it and check it the next time . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted October 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Neil Does the TPS rule book state specifically which violations result in a penalty and which result in a DQ? If so, I can see the reasonableness since everyone knows going in what the rules are. If not, it seems there is room for inequitable application of the penalty as well as some confusion amongst the competitors of what is a DQ-able offence. If the rulebook says 3000 pounds is the minimum weight and you decide to penalize 1 lap if the car is 2990; it is reasonable to DQ if it’s 2989? Is the 10 pound allowance fair to the guy who is a lap down but comes in legal at 3005? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 HOUSTONLM04: The TPS Rules do not anticipate every type of infraction and pre-list a corresponding penalty. I think traffic fines are so stated ie: 10mph over the speed limit = a fine of $100, 20mph over = $200 etc. TPS Rules do state ie: "failing to render for inspection is cause for disqualification", "failure of driver to have an operating scanner will result in grid penalty(s), "misconduct by crew persons will result in temporary or permanent revocation of driver's membership". Even the NASCAR cup series penalizes based upon severity of infraction. They did that recently re: #2 car at Talladega. USGA Golf has a "Precedents Book" which is at least 6 inches thick. It was compiled over more than 100 years of tournament golf. It is based upon precedents established in the past ie: "the ball comes to rest in a spectator lady's lap and here is how the golf officials ruled and dealt with that situation" and etc. We expect TPS officiating to fairly impose penalties. It then becomes our responsibility to then impose the same penalty if a duplicate infraction develops based on the few past precedents we've had. You noticed two examples of penalties I cited in 2002 and 2006. If a duplicate situation arises at a future TPS race, we would apply the same penalty based upon the precedents in those past races. This officiating standard is supported well by our continuity of operation over these past 31 racing seasons. This is starting to sound like white papers presented at an officials seminar. Neil Upchurch Race & Administrative Director Texas Pro Sedans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted October 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Neil When you have a mature series such as yours that is well run by seasoned veterans I think there is a level of reasonability that does come into play so I see your viewpoint. But I stand by my position that non-compliance should result in disqualification. Frankly, I'm surprised CrazyHorse hasn't weighed in on this one yet. I’m sure he has an equally enlightening point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgate Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 pace car i would have to diagree with you. illegal is illegal int. or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie49 Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 It seems to me that severity should be weighted more than intent. Complicated subject though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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