Casey19 Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Look at ASA, Pro Cup, Nascar etc. They take away points and money, based on the infraction. Obviously they are doing something right. Why would anyone that owns a Texas series want to throw someone out? We already do not have enough cars as it is. I guarantee the guy that has commited to run the series that gets no points, no money, and is DQed will not return show after show (possibly because he was 1/8" too low?) We need to find ways to field more cars not throw cars out. I certainly think the fine should fit the crime, but to throw racers out for non-peformance rule infractions is stupid. Now if you are talking about teching a one race deal like the SNOWBALL or ALL AMERICAN you have no choice but to implement the throw out rule. JMO - Kathy Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Humm.... http://www.speed51.com/2006stories/snowbal...ball_recap.html How much does a 1/4 of an inch and 2 10ths of a percent cost? $20,000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowball Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 .4 percent really when he wasn't leaning. Bobby Gill and team just said "OK" and went on about their business, so I guess they didn't have any argument about it. 1/4 inch on the tread width does make a difference based on what some drivers have told me. Some people have toild me, and I do not know this to be fact, but I believe Gill had an issue with that particular set of rims. If so,that is why he would have passed pre race inspection and not Post race inspection. If anyone has any input on this, fill me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Some people have toild me, and I do not know this to be fact, but I believe Gill had an issue with that particular set of rims. If so,that is why he would have passed pre race inspection and not Post race inspection. If anyone has any input on this, fill me in. Steve, Since they use several sets of wheels during the weekend, they made have gotten a set with a different offset, or back spacing. Whether it was accidental, or intentional, that would be my best guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer Duck Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I’m not really concerned with the obvious and blatant violation ... but the more minor varieties ... that are not necessarily a huge advantage but a rules violation nonetheless. Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in... This assumes pre-race tech did not identify the particular infraction. First, there's the black & white of it .. it's either illegal or it's not. Simple. The harder part is determining whether it was intentional or not. This is where having experienced inspectors is beneficial - especially if they're ex-racers 'cause ex-racers know more about what to look for in regard to intent (haven't ever found a racer that didn't cheat or think about cheating at one time or another ) If the infraction is unintentional, then loss of points & $$$, i.e., moved to last place, etc., is usually appropriate. But if determined to be intentional, then DQ and possible suspension/banning may be more appropriate. By DQ I mean no points, no money, no nothing. The racers that are continually caught "pushing the envelope" deserve extra scrutiny. They usually are the ones that can quote chapter and verse from the rule book. These folks should fall into the intentional group by default and then have to convince the tech people the infraction was actually unintentional. Like the guy who usually fails the 4" roller after the race .. collapsed spring or not, he needs to buy new springs and take extra action to ensure it won't happen again, and in the mean time he's DQ'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotter Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Hey Snowball, Not sure on the 1/4" deal with Gill being intentional or not, but I can tell you that we have had similar problems with our SLM at times depending on wich set of wheels we had on the car. We finally decided to dismount all the tires and check the backspacing on all of the wheels. It was interesting to find that there was as much as 3/8" difference in some of the wheels (one set of wheels were brand new and we couldn't use them together). Also, these wheels were all supposed to be 5" backspacing, so you can see that this was not due to mixing offsets; just that much variance in the manufacturers contruction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC93 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 We had the same problem with the Matt's car at the Derby. We had changed rims before pre qualifying tech and had too much track width. We had 5" offsets that measured 4 3/4, 4 7/8, and 5 1/4. We didn't have the problem with initial tech. Good thing we found the problem prior to pre qualifying tech or we'd of lost a lap in qualifying. Didn't realize Basset wheels varied so much from the advertised offset. I'm sure Gill ran into the same issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 The harder part is determining whether it was intentional or not. This is where having experienced inspectors is beneficial - especially if they're ex-racers 'cause ex-racers know more about what to look for in regard to intent (haven't ever found a racer that didn't cheat or think about cheating at one time or another ) If the infraction is unintentional, then loss of points & $$$, i.e., moved to last place, etc., is usually appropriate. But if determined to be intentional, then DQ and possible suspension/banning may be more appropriate. By DQ I mean no points, no money, no nothing. The racers that are continually caught "pushing the envelope" deserve extra scrutiny. They usually are the ones that can quote chapter and verse from the rule book. These folks should fall into the intentional group by default and then have to convince the tech people the infraction was actually unintentional. Like the guy who usually fails the 4" roller after the race .. collapsed spring or not, he needs to buy new springs and take extra action to ensure it won't happen again, and in the mean time he's DQ'd. Determining "intention" is not only "the harder part" of being a tech official - in most cases it is the "impossible part." Most of the better tech officials use the "black or white" standard. If you're illegal, you're illegal whether you intended to be illegal or not. Penalties are given based on precedent or severity rather than intent - a hard enough job all by itself! There isn't an official anywhere who can accurately asertain whether a competitor's intentions are pure or not so pure. Of course, there are those rare instances where it is obvious that a tire has gone down or a spring has collapsed, or half the body is lying in the infield where common sense should prevail. Also, my hat is off to any team who successfully "pushes the envelope" without cheating. Those are the guys who usually are running up front and can ill afford the black eye they would suffer if they were to get caught cheating. One thing is for sure. If you ever decide to become a tech official, sooner or later you will lose a bunch of friends. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 As much as I agree,a rule is a rule,if you let that go the next would try and push 58.99 and still say it is 58. Wouldn't have been fair to the others.That is the problem with too many rules also,but as was said by a local late model racer who usually pushed for all he could said was everyone weighs by the same scales, not the ones at home in the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer Duck Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 It only take 2 or 3 races to find out the difference between the track/series scales and my own at the shop. And that difference is written down somewhere conspicuous so next time I'm trying to shave a few pounds, I'll know how much "error" I needed to build in. Problem is, ya can weigh when ya get to the track, and come back an hour later without doing anything and it'd be different .. maybe the wind changed or the sun came out or the fat lady in the stands went to the restroom or..... a tenth of a percent is 2.8 lbs for a 2800 lb SLM .. how many beers is that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Problem is, ya can weigh when ya get to the track, and come back an hour later without doing anything and it'd be different .. maybe the wind changed or the sun came out or the fat lady in the stands went to the restroom or..... a tenth of a percent is 2.8 lbs for a 2800 lb SLM .. how many beers is that??? More often than not, just backing the car off the scales and pushing it back on changes the corner weights. But usually the total weight remains pretty constant as does the left side percentage and the front to rear percentage as long as the car is centered on the scales. If there are differences in the total weight, it usually can be attributed to the car not being on the scales straight. I have also seen wind gusts add weight momentarily. If he was 58.3 percent left (as I have seen in several reports), then that's 8.4 pounds on the left side and minus 8.4 pounds on the right side. That's 16.8 pounds that is distributed differently than someone at 58.0 percent. I'll take that every time. By the way, that's about what our Mercury Cigarette package (cleverly disguised as a Marlboro pack) used to weigh. You know, the pack we used to casually place on the right side roof as the car was pushed onto the scales. What could a pack of cigarettes weigh, anyway? LOL Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 I heard that Brazier has a lawsuit in the works. Most rule books say that the tech official ruling is final, don't know what the snowball books says. Either way it will be interesting to see how far they will get. It's not unheard of though, I think a Daytona 500 win was awarded a week or so later after some legal wrangling (between Allison and Pearson maybe?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhcougs Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Theres been a few Indy 500's that the official winner wasn't named until a share of legal battles within the orginization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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