walshes Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 I watched a race this saturday at SAS where a fourth place car was struggling with the third place car and down at least 1/2 staight away to the first and second place cars on the 20th lap of a 25 lap feature. Then the car passed the third place car and ran down the second place car blew by him with no problem. Then walked passed the first place car like he was standing still. All on the span of 4 laps! He ran mid 22'S for qualifing and the leaders had been timed throughout the race at and average of 22-teens. He must have been running mid 21's or better (faster than the track record by 4 tenths) to have caught and passed the leaders that quickly! And after he walked passed the leader he didn't walk away, he just started running the same speed as the leaders. My question is- Who is responsible for making sure that nothing illegal was going on when something so obviously wrong happens? I have been told in the past that in order to make sure someone is legal, another competitor would have to fork over the cash to protest the race. In other words its ok to cheat unless someone protests or its not really cheating unless you are caught. Inquireing minds want to know! John Walsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 What I saw was Moore (#70) doing the best job of saving tires until late. He knows which lap pays the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshes Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 So your saying that 1/2 race old tires are worth 1 second on lap times toward the end of a race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Just saying what I saw, nothing more. I will add that if there was anything going on. Neil Upchurch would have caught it. He hasn't been in business for 31 years by missing stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshes Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Neil is a great series director but even he doesn't see everything! I give him credit the TPS is as closely matched as you can get with such a diverse set af cars but some things stick out as way too wrong to pass inspection -- if the inspection was done with that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Ya know I heard someone stole the "Bat boost" off the Batmobile while it was at the auto show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Definitive Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Chris Davidson did the same thing in the SLM race.He saved his tires but seemed to wait too long to try and catch Casey.After the green flag dropped Moore made up ground on the leaders just as fast as at the end of the race,but took his time trying to pass them.I will admit,it set us all back a little watching him at the end make those passes,but their loss of momentum at one point around lapped cars helped Moore too.I just hope,very much,that you are wrong about the cheating.They all put on a hell of a show.That doesn't always happen with the TPS at SAS.We got our $20 worth after the first race,the others ended up just being a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshes Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 I watched Chris in that race and I was pulling for him. He just ran out of laps before he could make a move! It was fun watch him work his way up! Great race and mostly caution free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 A memo to John Walsh: I appreciate your attendance last night at San Antonio Speedway. It was the start of our 31st Texas Pro Sedans racing season. I have received several appreciation notes from people who enjoyed our race. The TPS event was an exciting race. I wish to present a few statistics and facts that may alter your statement which was "My question is - Who is responsible for making sure that nothing illegal was going on when something so obviously wrong happens? " First of all, I am the TPS Race Director and take full responsibility for the conduct of our races. TPS had two co-chief inspectors, David Mackey and Bob Sherland and the TPS weight inspector Bill Jordan on duty last night. Assisting me in race control was part time TPS official Nick Holt and TPS scorer Loraine McCain. The event was well regulated. * Please consider the following new TPS records from time trials: #1- 21.910, #2-21.940, #27-22.090 and #70-22.310. * Consider the required minimum weights of the first three cars in the race: #70-1766 lbs, #2-2266 lbs and #27-2179 lbs. * Consider the required maximum left side weight percentages of the first three cars in the race: #70-58%, #2-54% and #27-58%. l would suggest that the #2 car, which by TPS rule elects to use a tube frame chassis and a much larger engine and consequently must weigh 500 lbs more than #70 could very well have had a tire wear problem that the lighter #70 perhaps didn't have near the end of the race. * Also consider the post race technical inspection of the first five placing cars. They were placed in impound, which required no alteration. They were all weighed. All five passed weight inspection. Cars #70, 27, 33 and 15 were to subjected to carburetor and fuel system inspections. All passed. #2's engine was P&G measured to validate his cc claim. The #2 engine was legal. A carburetor inspection was waived because it passed post time trial inspection and was the same one used in the race. As TxTom said "What I saw was Moore (#70) doing the best job of saving tires until late". Now that you know the weights of the cars, I would say that TxTom's observation is correct. You said, "I have been told in the past that in order to make sure someone is legal, another competitor would have to fork over the cash to protest the race." Who told you that? You have been misinformed. Drivers have that option. None saw fit to utilize their protest option last night. None had to because as I explained, the official inspections were rather extensive. (btw - Many racing organization allow protests, if they are secured by a pre-published fee). You also said "In other words its ok to cheat unless someone protests or its not really cheating unless you are caught." I resent your statement. It suggests that you are biased in favor of a car which #70 beat. What car might that be? For you to be better informed regarding TPS rules, I suggest that you visit www.TexasProSedans.com and read the rules that govern TPS cars. I hope my reply answers some of your misdirected criticisms. Neil Upchurch Race & Administrative Director Texas Pro Sedans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 So your saying that 1/2 race old tires are worth 1 second on lap times toward the end of a race? You might want to take one of Nick's seminars. I'll take a 1700 lb car with a 58% left side weight over a 2200 lb car with 54% left side weight any day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingaces Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Why is it you consider him a cheater. maybe his strategy worked to his advanage, maybe he doesnt do good in qualify good but runs better with more laps under him. with no disrespect i think you should do more home work before you point fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Consider his years of experience,and the dynamics of his engine combination,it has no push rods to worry about,and can turn higher RPMs due to lifter being on the valves.Heck he won in CC a couple of years ago after a wreck with a car that couldn't even get on the scales straight.He is a good driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KISS_Racing Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Neil, What a race.... Walshes, Also take in to account that not every set of tires come in equally. I'd bet he was conserving tires, but I'd also bet his tires didn't come in till later in the run... Congrats to ALL TPS drivers for a great race... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Great explanation Neil. Great race Donnie Moore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecar25 Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 yeah that pro sedan race was great. a lot of cars and passing it was good. i watched that race 2 times today and that sucked for the #1 car of Dishman that he wrecked. cannot wait till next saturday night at SAS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 An excellent explanation by Neil Upchurch. Neil, I must admit I am not very aware of the different rules in your class; While I know several of your drivers, I crew in other series. But with your explanation of the weight rules, I can see why the car Moore was driving could have more tire at the end of the race. 400-500 pounds? That is significant. I was a crew member for Jerry Grant when we ran your Super Stock races at TWS in the 80's. We won several events, and the first few were with 355-360 inch engines. With the 9 lb per cubic inch rule, it meant a car weight of 3200-3250 or so. Later, we switched to a 311 inch engine, which dropped 400 pounds off the car weight, down to about 2800. While we suffered on the restarts a little, the significant weight reduction kept the tires under the car longer, and they were more consistent. This mirrors what happened to Donnie Moore Saturday night. While he may be down some horsepower to the Fords, he makes up for it with the lighter weight and a great handling car. When we took 400 pounds off a 3000 pound car, it was a huge drop. It is even more so at 2000 pounds. Thanks again for the explanation, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertx Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 You all might know this but there is a fine line between cheating and finding an advantage. If you show up with a big cubic inch motor that would be cheating.If you out to make more horsepower unconventional thats being smart same on the cars.Ya'll make the decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Tom, I don't know about the 70 car, but I do know about the 53. They've GOT to do something about that HORN! Racecars don't have HORNS! Just kidding Randy. Seems like everybody got a big kick out of it with you honking the horn during gridding before the race. Tell us, do you ever use it during the race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Racecars don't have HORNS Don't know about a horn, but if Randy pulls a light bar and a siren off one of his firetrucks, now THAT might be something to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshes Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Thank you neil for your very verbose and informative diatribe! Of course none of your officials made any mistakes last race .. they did their jobs . The one that looked at the 27 car saw the bottom of the carb and pronounced us legal. He however didn't inspect any part of the fuel system or intake parts to see whether we had nitros parts and i don't know if he would have known what they were if he did. I asume the same is true for the 2 and 70 cars. As to saving the tires on a lighter car for the end of a race who can argue with that. But the leaders at lap 20 were running low 22 second laps . Not far from the qualifying speeds. The 70 car caught them fast -even that I can attribute to better tires- but when he caught the 27 car in turn 3 he was right on his back bumper. They both entered the turn and stayed nose to tail for turns three and four. Then 70 turned under the 27 without the benefit of momentum and accelerated clear past the 27 before the flag stand and caught the 2 car before turn one . mind you the 27 was still turning low 22 second laps. Now if I had better tires than my opponents the time I would make up would be exclusive to the turns. Of course after a fast turn momentum would have me closing on the leaders but i saw the 70 go through the turn with very little if any momentum advantage and still walk past the 27. So either the the 70 broke the laws of physics with voovdoo momentum or "something" happend to turn a car that ran low to mid 22s for qualifying and 20 laps of the feature into a mid to low 21 second car for as long as it took to get past the leaders. "I have been told in the past that in order to make sure someone is legal, another competitor would have to fork over the cash to protest the race." Who told you that? You did Neil. " the official inspections were rather extensive" I was present at one of those and it was far from extensive! "I resent your statement. It suggests that you are biased in favor of a car which #70 beat. What car might that be?" The 27 car .... Who are you biased toward? "I hope my reply answers some of your misdirected criticisms." No it didn't. John Walsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Now it becomes more clear. You just got beat, so it makes you feel better to accuse the guy who beat you of cheating. He beat you and two other cars, so he must be cheating! Heck, why am I arguing this with you. I don't even have a dog in this hunt! ...but it was sure a fun race to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshes Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Yes and he also beat the 2 and 33 and so on and so on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 To: John Walsh Now your motivation is clear to me. You have been a crewman on the #27 in the past haven't you? Bill LaBarge sent the BMW to the SAS-TPS race with a big FOR SALE sign on it. Winning the race might have been a sales clincher. When it didn't turn out that way, you climb on TXSZ.com and whine. John, we will just keep on having Texas Pro Sedan races with or without you. Having said that, this will be my last "diatribe" to fuel your fire. Neil Upchurch Race & Administrative Director Texas Pro Sedans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed demon 7 Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I was not ther nor do I have anything to do with SAS or TPS, but my friend raced in the truck race and I was reading results. I race in Houston, dirt and asphalt, and I have heard this one many times. It sounds a lot like the "He beat me and I am cheating, so he MUST be cheating"? I did hear it was a good show, good luck next race! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Larsen Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 To answer you Budman,I would never use the horn during any racing and it was solely put on the car as an attention getter for the kids and adults who want some intertainment before the race,my thinking is if you aren't as fast as the others,you might as well look good and have some fun(so did I achieve this???)I think most of the crowd liked it.It was good to talk to you Tom,and Thanks to everyone who came over and expressed how much they liked "Herbie".I worked very hard to build this car and Sat. was its first trip around any track,but get ready,the "BIG" horsepower motor is under construction,and you will see me very close to the front runners real soon.......................Randy #53 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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