spin the leader

[97car]

Just to get something rolling here. What are peoples opions on what to doo when a spinout occurs,such as second place spins the leader or anyone else spins someone else out further back. I know series and tracks differ on this. Some use anyone involved,and some send the person causing the spin to the back and gives the person spun back his position. Just like to see what the opions are out there.

[ups88john]

person causing spin goes to the back, if leader is spun, he gets his spot back. if leader causes a spin, he goes to the back.

 

Big John

[Truck99]

I agreen with Big John with one small addition - if the officials cannot agree about who caused the incident, then send both involved cars to the back. THR adopted the "both cars to the rear" rule last season, and I did not like it. The drivers voted on it, but I still don't think it's the right way to do it. I say let the officials make the judgement calls unless they are truly undecided.

 

ss99

[NickHolt]

The only people who actually know what happened during most racing incidents are the two people involved.

 

Two Scenarios

 

Scenario 1 as seen from the stands: Driver in second place manages to get his nose under the leader going into turn 3. As the cars start to exit turn four, they make contact and the leader spins down the front straight. Everyone in the place (except those fans of the second place car) feels like the second place car took out the leader.

 

Scenario 1 as seen from inside the lead car: The leader has been getting looser and looser during the race, but has been able to hold off the second place car so far. As second place car gets under the leader, the leader gets a bit too loose, corrects and comes down the track a bit due to the correction just as the cars start to exit turn 4. The leader knows that it was his fault that the cars touched, but drives back to the front during the yellow, claiming his first place position back.

 

Scenario 1 as seen from inside the second place car: The second place car has finally been able to squeeze under the leader who has been getting looser and looser as the race wore on. Second place car has been developing a slight push as the race progressed, but was able to brake a bit early and keep it under control. As the cars start to come out of turn 4, the second place car starts to push just a tiny bit just as the leader corrects for his loose condition. The cars touch and around goes the leader. The second place car knows that the leader was actually at fault, but also knows that he played a small part too. Maybe if he hadn't had that little push, he could have moved down just enough to avoid the contact.

 

The fans (and race officials) see it one way, but the two drivers see it entirely different. To ask race officials to determine who's right and who's wrong in these sorts of situations is just plain asking too much.

 

In my opinion, both cars should be sent to the rear.

 

Granted, sometimes it looks like someone is CLEARLY at fault. For instance:

 

Scenario 2 as seen from the stands: Leader goes into turn 1 with the second place car right on his tail. All of a sudden the second place car rams the leader who spins up the track, narrowly missing the turn 2 wall. Second place car has nose all dented in, but is able to continue. A clear case of the second place car taking the leader out, right?

 

Scenario 2 as seen from inside the leader's car: Second place car is clearly faster and leader has been holding him up for the past 3 or 4 laps. Leader thinks he can get second place car sent to the rear by tricking the second place car into spinning him out. He applies the brakes much harder than he usually does going into turn 1 (called a "brake check" in stock car racing circles). Second place car rams and spins the leader.

 

Scenario 2 as seen from inside the second place car: Leader has been blocking for several laps. Second place driver determines to get a good shot off turn 2 on the next lap so he gets up close to leader going into turn 1. Suddenly leader slows unexpectedly and second place car rams the leader. Second place driver gives "you're number one" salute with middle finger to first place driver as he goes by.

 

From the stands (and to the officials) it seems very much like the second place car finally got impatient and pushed the leader out of the way. Everyone in the place can see it is totally obvious that the second place car is at fault. Not only that, but a whole lot of people clearly saw second place driver give leader the finger. Proof positive that the second place car intentionally rammed the leader, right? But the truth of the situation was just the opposite. Hmmm...

 

Since race officials do not have "motive detectors" and cannot read minds, it is apparent to me that anyone involved in bringing out a yellow (or red) flag condition should be sent to the rear. This was the position I enforced while I was Chief Steward at SAS and in most cases it served everyone pretty well. There were times when it seemed unjust, but there were many more times when the only two people who actually knew what happened out there were the drivers actually involved.

 

Nick Holt

[WildRacer5]

does anyone else agree with the thought that despite what the rules say about spinning out any car, including the leader, that if it comes down to a judgement call it depends on who you are and how well your connected with the track management?

[debwill]

I've seen it done both ways, and quite frankly I think it's better to enforce sending "whoever is involved" to the rear. However, this rule only works when it is done consistently, no matter who you are or whatever the circumstances.

 

Penalizing only the driver who causes the yellow becomes very judgmental, and sometimes it's been a matter of who you are or whom you know. Also, depending which driver is questioned, you'll hear that the other driver either "came down on me or pushed me up." They both blame each other, almost every time!

 

I did like the spin to avoid rule, though, that was in place at SAS a few years ago. If the officials can clearly see that the car spinning was not involved in the yellow, the driver should not be penalized.

 

That's my two cents worth, and I know this topic has been a controversial one for as long as I've been associated with stock car racing!

[tqj3]

Nick-

You covered the question pretty well, and I agree that both cars should go to the back. Particularly on a one-groove track like THR, it's almost impossible to pass without touching the car in front, the old "bump and run." If the front car keeps his (or her) position after the contact, he or she has no reason to try and save the car; in fact, they've every reason to go ahead and spin the sucker as soon as they get touched.

They get their spot back, and the faster car that was about to pass gets sent to the rear.

[ups88john]

hey nick, a few words would of done just fine lol. you did bring up several good points, it is impossible to please everyone all of the time. i dont like judgment calls, but we have to deal with them. what about in the first big shot? should chris go to the back as well as goodson? or should chris go to the back or did the officials make the right call?

 

Big John

[NickHolt]

Big John,

 

I wuz gonna add third and fourth scenarios, but I figured the site would run out of bandwidth if I did.. lol.

 

There continues to be controversy about the Goodson--Davidson incident in the 2001 Big Shot. I didn't see it, and even if I did, that would have been a difficult call to make. On the other hand, if the rules for the event had stated up front that anybody involved in causing a yellow or red condition goes to the back, I don't think the incident would have happened in the first place.

 

Deb: I agree with the "spin to avoid" rule as long as the spin-to-avoid car doesn't hit anything, including the wall. I used that provision when I was Chief Steward too.

 

In the Texas Pro Sedans we use the "if you're involved you go to the back" rule as well as the "spin to avoid" rule.

 

Nick Holt

[Jason]

What about when the leader intentionally turns into the 2nd place guy like what Chris Davidson did to Joey last year or the year before at CC Speedway. Chris was much slower. Joey got under him and Chris turned left causing Joey to spin through the grass. Chris stayed up front and Joey went to where he came back to the line at.

 

Jason

[NickHolt]

Jason,

 

Incidents like the one you describe reinforce why I believe the rule should be that anyone causing a yellow or red flag goes to the rear of the lap they were on. I wasn't at the race you're discussing, so I don't even know whether that incident brought out a caution flag or not. But if so, then both Joey and Chris should have gone to the back IMHO.

 

I have no idea what policy ROMCO uses regarding contact that brings out a caution period. But let's suppose ROMCO was using the rule where anyone causing a yellow flag goes to the back of that lap. In this case Chris would have known that he would be sent to the back for being involved in bringing out a caution, so he might have used his head and let the faster car by and take second instead of last car on the lead lap.

 

By the way, what is the ROMCO policy regarding contact that brings out a flag?

 

Nick Holt

[rebelracewriter]

tqj3, Question.....If you agree with w/ Nick on both going to the back, then why didn't both go during the Davidson/Goodson deal at the 2001 Big Shot? From where I was "sitting"-lol, it was a clear case of neither wanting to give an inch and I could clearly see which direction both had their wheels turned---into each other. Just curious!

As debwill stated this has always been a topic of discussion, ever since Ben Hur was racing chariots. LMAO

[HORSEPOWER]

I think it should be done like the Winston Cup Series, then there would be more contreversy, confrontations, fights, suspensions, etc. Just kidding I think the two cars involved should be sent to the back, if a driver is blocking he should be given some kind of warning flag or something. But then again how do we define the word racing.

[tqj3]

JM-

What makes you think I had anything to say about the incident at the Big Shot in 2001? I'm not an official.

For the record, that was (Gasp!) a blown call. Officials do make mistakes, and there was a bit of confusion over what had actually happened. It was understandable under the circumstances, and it's true that there was enough error to go around, including some overly-aggressive driving among the top three or four drivers.

My call? In that situation, I would have put both of them back in their spots at the front, and told them if anything like that happened again, they'd both go to the back.

That's not a rule, but officials should always have some leeway to make judgement calls.

[Randy Larsen]

Just my two cents worth,In the final Texas Pro Sedan race last year at Thunderhill,I had worked my way to the front of the pack after passing Sergio Hexel for the lead,the front runners were all weaving our way through slower traffic and in turns three and four,when we all slowed up to pass slower traffic, the third place car did not slow up and hit me from behind hard enough to make me spin all the way around but I never hit anyone and was able to continue back racing losing a few spots,the flagman throws a caution and myself and the car that hit me are sent to the back of the pack.(this eventually cost me the race)When racing resumed as I worked my way through the pack passing a slower car on turn two,he lost control and then corrected, taking me to the dirt on the inside,and you guessed it ,myself and him were sent to the back,I was livid and could not understand WHY!!! I did work my way up through the pack and finished third almost taking second. I do not support the all parties involved go to the back rule at all.The track officials should be allowed to make the call as to who caused the incident (just like the referees in football they report to the head official what they see) and I understand it wont always be perfect but the way this rule is applied in the Pro Sedans tells me that if you dont like whos leading ,take them out so they go to the back.I just think that racing is hard enough and when you have a chance at winning taken away by anothers lack of driving skill or just plain accident it just aint right... Randy Larsen#50 Red Volkswagen Karmann Ghia

[Truck99]

Randy,

 

For what it's worth, I was watching the race that you are talking about, and you did an awesome job. You definately took home the "hard charger" award for that race. Both of those incidents you are referring to were very obvious as to who was at fault, and it's too bad that you had to go to the back both times. There were so many SLOW cars in that race, you were having to dodge traffic like cars sitting still on IH35. I think we'll always be outnumbered on the judgement call issue, and I will concede that there are good arguments to be made on both sides of this fence. Nick made some very good ones, but it never helps that feeling you get when you're taken out while minding your own darn business! Good luck to everyone this season.

 

Chase

[NickHolt]

Randy,

 

You seem to have ended up on the wrong side of the "to the rear of the lap" rule in that race. Hopefully things will even up for you in 2003. In spite of the fact that I missed that race, I should point out that the other drivers involved may very well have their own version of what happened. As you know, things look very different from different perspectives. I'm sorry I missed that race, but my daughter was competing in the state gymnastics championship meet that day in Dallas. Priorities you know.

 

I predict that Randy will take that air-cooled Karmann Ghia to victory circle this season. He knocked on the door several times in 2002. Just get that last bit of understeer out to make it easier to navigate traffic, right?

 

Nick Holt

[Randy Larsen]

Randy,

 

For what it's worth, I was watching the race that you are talking about, and you did an awesome job.  You definately took home the "hard charger" award for that race.  Both of those incidents you are referring to were very obvious as to who was at fault, and it's too bad that you had to go to the back both times.  There were so many SLOW cars in that race, you were having to dodge traffic like cars sitting still on IH35.  I think we'll always be outnumbered on the judgement call issue, and I will concede that there are good arguments to be made on both sides of this fence.  Nick made some very good ones, but it never helps that feeling you get when you're taken out while minding your own darn business!  Good luck to everyone this season.

 

Chase

Thanks Chase,I try not to do alot of complaining, but I am running a aircooled horizontally opposed dinosaur of an engine,and have just like all the other racers,worked my eyeballs out to get a car to be competitive.It just seems to continue to be the one that (almost) did it..............but I'll never give up!!!! Randy Larsen

[NickHolt]

Randy,

 

There is no denying that building and maintaining a front-running race car is a lot of work. And I know you and your family have done an amazing job with that red Karmann Ghia (I finally learned how to spell Karmann Ghia!).

 

I have been a car owner and have been involved in racing for most of my adult life. The first car we owned was a four-cylinder Vega Mini Stock that we ran at Paramount Speedway in Austin and Pan American Speedway in San Antonio (and a couple of races at Highway 16 until the right front hub broke and took the Vega and driver Bruce Mabrito smack into the turn one wall -- hello Newell Salvage). That thing had an aluminum block and a cast iron head. Talk about engineering problems. Toothed cam belt too. Of course, the Pintos had everything they needed to go fast -- just bolt it on. We had to engineer everything. So I think I understand where you are coming from here.

 

But, I have learned over the years that you must have EVERYTHING together in order to wind up in the winner's circle on a consistent basis. Granted, you have taken on an additional challenge by running the air-cooled engine. However, you also get to run the biggest carb in the series and have a 15 percent weight break because of that engine. I think you have taken advantage of the engine (carb) rules, but I do not think you have taken full advantage of the weight break and handling advantage you could have if you maximized the weight rules.

 

Again, I know how much work getting the suspension/chassis stuff right. I have been a suspension engineer for the past 25 years and KNOW how hard it is to get the weight distribution just right, to find just the right shock/spring combination, to get all the suspension geometry working together as a system that works for you.

 

I guess what I am saying here is that the rules are actually in your favor and once you get that suspension working the way it could, then you will enjoy more success.

 

Mr. Upchurch does his level best to make sure that all makes in the Pro Sedan series have a shot at running up front. For years and years the Pintos that kicked so much butt last season were getting their butts kicked by the water-cooled VWs. It wasn't until a couple of Pinto teams took FULL advantage of those rules that the Pintos ran up front. The very same scenario is entirely possible for air-cooled VWs in my opinion. The first air-cooled VW team that puts it all together is going to do its share of winning due to the built-in rules advantages they currently enjoy.

 

I'm looking forward to the 2003 Pro Sedan season. I think we're going to see one of the most competitive seasons in TPS history.

 

Nick Holt

[rebelracewriter]

JM-

What makes you think I had anything to say about the incident at the Big Shot in 2001? I'm not an official.

For the record, that was (Gasp!) a blown call. Officials do make mistakes, and there was a bit of confusion over what had actually happened. It was understandable under the circumstances, and it's true that there was enough error to go around, including some overly-aggressive driving among the top three or four drivers.

My call? In that situation, I would have put both of them back in their spots at the front, and told them if anything like that happened again, they'd both go to the back.

That's not a rule, but officials should always have some leeway to make judgement calls

 

tqj3, I was just curious at to what your official capacity was there. If there was confusion over it, someone should have asked me! LMAO As I wrote in my article, I felt they BOTH should have gone to the tail!