Potential new cheap RWD V6/V8 Class Gauging Interest

[MikePeters95]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:34 PM, JamesHigdon said:

o I could have an actual racecar with a VQ motor? Or wait would the rules allow a 2JZ in a Lexus GS? Or I guess you could run a 1UZ! OHH! A 330i would be sweet, you’d give up a little power but gain it back in weight savings.”

 

Exactly. Some cars will be better than others but you can now open up to a plethora of automotive enthusiats to platforms that are at the bottom of their value curve but platforms that people are already familiar with and comfortable with bringing in a whole new group of racers to the track.  Hopefully they find a bigger class they latch onto and move up, but we also don't know what things look like in 2028 and 2033 which gives folks time to build and classes to build. 

Also plenty of time to fine tune rules and weight on it.  

[MikePeters95]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:25 AM, NickHolt said:

B. The rules must be strictly enforced with no exceptions. And the class/track management must back the tech officials every time.

 

That's why the "stock means stock" deal will need to be very strictly enforced for this to work, and the first person who deviates from this, will set precedent when they're involuntarily bumped to bootleggers or the appropriate lowest rung dirt class and gets lapped.  If they want to innovate and be a techxpert, go get a real race car, not a class aimed at casual fun / new folks / 18-25'ers.  This ethos has to be enforced, hard.

I've screwed up the quote tags above sorry lol.

Quote

2) Low-cost classes is the key to the future success of asphalt racing - as many have pointed out.  But getting these low-tech cars to handle is a major challenge for racers to overcome and racers are very inventive when it comes to getting an advantage over their fellow racers. Very strict rules about shocks, springs, suspension components and tires are a must.  As soon as someone "innocently" re-mounts a suspension component to alter a roll center or gain a bump steer advantage, the class will be history.  Shocks should be issued by the track and dynoed to detect any re-valving efforts. Springs should be pulled, measured and rated randomly.

 

. 

There is no budget for this, fiscally or chronologically, and expecting the track to keep in stock 5 different platforms of shocks/struts/springs is essentially spending more on parts inventory than the cost of an entire car.  Just make sure you control any intake and messaging, control anyone who is interested in the class and do not be opaque in describing the class, purpose of the class, and that stock means stock. If someone wants to be creative, fantastic, kick them out without hesitation and they can be creative in another class because they wanted to go against the clearly written spirit of the rules for this entry-level bone stock class.  You won't get friend request on facebook, but the class will go on.  The type of people who'd cheat in this class and never come back to the track wouldn't grow with the class/track anyways in my opinion.  If billed right this would attract interested people knowing this is a 'get your feet wet' class with an emphasis on moving up.  The big question is where do they move up, is Bootlegger the real answer?  Or is there something else. Hobby Stock on dirt obviously.  

Edited June 1, 2023 by MikePeters95

[MikePeters95]

On 5/30/2023 at 8:10 PM, JamesHigdon said:

I’ve been thinning a lot of about this. My input would be.

1) You have to allow air spring conversions (a lot of the cars talked about are offered with rear air suspension) BUT they’d have to be approved beforehand AND from a supplier selling OE style parts. This was an issue for us at CTS.

2) My thinking is the rule book actually needs to be VERY short. OE style components in OE locations mounted from OE mounts unless otherwise specified. What is OE style? Use “the RockAuto rule”, if it doesn’t come from the “Economy” or “Standard” section at RockAuto it doesn’t go on your car. Spell out VERY simply what is allowed. Straight pipes past the factory manifolds, adjust the alignment within factory specs (allow OE style camber kits if you’d like), gut it, knock out the glass, cage, that’s IT. If it doesn’t say it there isn’t illegal. If the car gets wrecked and your adjustments appear to add performance it’s illegal. If you tune the computer you get tarred and feathered on the front stretch before you can race again.

There are already solutions in place for most air spring cars that have a coil spring counterpart.  I've learned this a lot at my day job being a warranty inspector.  For example, the Huyndai Genesis after a second claim of air spring failure gets a Kia K900 coil spring because it's the same platform.  Most the air spring cars have a coil spring OEM counterpart. This goes back to racer intake and they'll ask these questions.

I'll try to update the rulebook with some these points over the weekend and drop it again here and see what holes you guys can poke in it.  This has been far more productive than the several places I've dropped it on Facebook.  

Also the idea is this class is adopted on pavement and dirt, and folks are encouraged to run both if they can, hopefully the tracks will use this as a filler class for nights and in 1-2 years it grows where you can race them almost any time a track is open.  I feel like there are enough people who'd like to get involved where most tracks could pull 10-15 of these if ran properly, folks would be okay running mid-back of pack as long as they have someone to race with and their learning, or they're just turning laps for fun, and a handful of competitive folks or people that find the itch of competition, move up, and sell these cars on the internet for 2-3k to the next person who wants to try it out.

[TBone]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:11 AM, MikePeters95 said:

I can easily and should add some wording here to clarify, that the OEM is a guideline but delete the part about must be OEM, and just paint the box as 205-245 / 50-65 @ 35psi unless it's 2 year or order tire @ 25psi, 360 treadwear minimum, all four tires must match in size, OEM or OEM style wheels, tire and wheel must not protrude or stick out beyond the OEM fender line and must be within 1/2 inch of OEM offset / backspacing.  Very open to input if anyone has any, but that's a really great point you've made on some ambiguity and contradiction in wording as written at this time for potential vehicles this class is aimed at.

"2. Wheels and tires must be OEM. No aftermarket aluminum that are not OEM style. Steel police style or race style wheels are permitted, no low offset wheels that stick out beyond the fender. OEM size and offset or similar required. Tire size must be 205-245 width, a min sidewall of 50 and max of 65, and all four tires matching, with 340 or higher treadwear DOT radial.. All four tires must be same size and no stagger is allowed in any way. Tires are to be 340 treadwear minimum, with a minimum tire pressure of 35psi to be checked pre race and randomly post race. Used tires are strongly encouraged, and tires that fir the criteria directly above and have date codes older than 2 years with more than 4/32 of tread and less than 9/32nds of tread can run 25psi if all four meet this criteria. DOT radials above 340 treadwear only!!!!"


 

I've been thinking more about the wheel/tire rule.  Here's my suggestion:

2. Wheels must be OEM style. Steel police style or race style wheels are permitted. No low offset wheels that stick out beyond the fender. Tires can be a max of 245 width with a min sidewall of 50.  All four tires must be the same size, brand, and model with a minimum treadwear rating of 340. Tires must have a minimum pressure of 35psi to be checked pre-race and randomly post-race. Used tires are strongly encouraged, and tires that fit the criteria directly above and have date codes older than 2 years with more than 4/32 of tread and less than 9/32nds of tread can run 25psi if all four tires meet this criteria. DOT radials with 340 treadwear or above only!!!!"

The one thing I'm on the fence about is the tires being the same brand/model.  Mixing and matching brands can introduce some stagger, but it might also defeat the goal of used tires.

[NickHolt]

It's great that folks are brainstorming about ways to save asphalt racing in Texas.  Keep it up! Having been directly involved since Pan American Speedway / Paramount Austins Speedway days, I hope the sport can be saved and return to some significant level of prosperity and popularity. 

My experience has been that "run-what-you-brung" type classes do OK for a short period of time or as a seciual event every year, or so. 

If run as a regular class, however, a few experienced folks will figure out how to maximize the lack of rules and dominate the show from the drop of the first green flag.  Everyone else realizes their chances are slim to none and get discouraged and find something else to do with their time and money. 

That's why I suggested that rules be iron-clad and strictly enforced. 

Thanks for allowing this old fart to share...

[MikePeters95]

I agree 100%, but the track being on life support you need to look at the resources you have.  Rules can be strictly enforced without hiring Ricky Brooks for this class.  I think it would almost be fun to have the class self-police where they can do their own tech but that's getting a bit far down the road for a class that hasn't ran or even been fully proposed.  

I'll bang away at the keyboard tomorrow and upload a PDF we can further critique.  I appreciate all the constructive criticism on here and also as someone who doesn't go down south much, someone explain the 50 different modified classes going on because I can't even figure that out.  

[MikePeters95]

Street SedanBeta (1).pdf
 

 

Feel free to proofread and poke any holes of concern. Thanks!

[TBone]

Mike, I really like this idea. I'm talking with a friend about building a car, but it would have to be for next season. 

One comment on the rules: In the safety section, under fasteners, you've copied in a 3-layer driver suit requirement. In the roll cage section, it calls for a 1-layer suit. I'd suggest all driver suit/helmet/gloves requirements be in the safety section. And either 1 or 2 layer suits.

Lastly, in either the  first or second paragraph talking about the goal of the class, encourage experienced racers to mentor and help new racers. Racing is more fun when more of the field is competitive.

[NickHolt]

Mike, I spent some time reviewing the draft rules for the Street Sedan class you are proposing.

While I understand that you are attempting to write rules that are inclusive, rather than specific, to encourage a wide variety of cars to join in the fun, these rules invite turmoil within the class as people figure out that certain makes and certain configurations have major advantages over some of the other possible eligible makes. 

Also, some productions cars are unable to handle the forces subjected to the suspensions and chassis and automatically an accident waiting to happen.  And most pure stock cars overheat after a couple of laps in "passing gear." So, right away, deviations from "bone stock" are required if the class is to survive the rigors of all-out competition.  

Writing racing rules short is not an easy task and requires lots of time, lots of thought and, hopefully, lots of racing experience in the writer's resume. 

You're got the right idea by seeking advice from others, although some of the advice you will recognize as coming from someone hoping you'll write the rules the way that would give the advantage to their program. 

[NickHolt]

For instance, in the draft section on alignments:

The suspension arms, links, spindles, shocks, springs, and struts must be OEM or OEM equivalent parts, no aftermarket performance parts.

The meaning of the term "OEM equivalent parts" is an open invitation for creative definitions of the term.  Likewise, "aftermarket performance parts." Some companies catering to the budget racing community advertise their pieces as "OEM equivalent " or "OEM replacement parts," but are significantly different from the original OEM components in ways that help the handling of race cars. 

However, to assist with tire wear, components above the spindle may have the mounting location slotted for alignment purposes only. 

So, upper a-arm mounts and upper strut mounts can be altered.  This tells anyone with even a small amount of suspension knowledge that critical camber and castor settings are basically free, like in the "Pro" classes.  Caster split is now available as well as radical camber settings just like in the upper racing divisions.   And if Tech asks, just say you made the changes "for alignment purposes only."

The arms, links, and components must remain stock, but the holes on the chassis can be slotted, or have shims added if there is not enough range in the alignment abilities from the factory.

Allowing chassis slots is asking for teams to start playing with bump steer technology and messing with roll center heights. 

Any bolt on parts found to be modified will be deemed illegal, only slotting of holes and shims may be added on the chassis side for the strut mount, or upper control arm, for alignment purposes only. Tech has the right to refuse allowing any modifications deemed beyond this illegal.

Anyone with knowledge of front end geometry will jump all over these allowances "for alignment purposes." 

So far, I have just addressed the front end.  Wouldn't a suspension guy love it if they could slot the chassis mounts on the rear end?  I'm not even going there because I don't want to divulge too many secrets learned on Metric Chassis. 

These rules seem destined to undermine the intent of this class.

Unless I read it wrong, there seems to be a 200 lbs maximum spring rate allowed.  A 200-pound spring in the front end of a car running a-arms will bottom out.  A 200 lbs spring in a strut car is felt at the tire contact patch as much stonger than a 200 lbs spring in a two a-arm car.  

Just a few of the things I noted while reading the draft rules. 

[MikePeters95]

On 6/13/2023 at 10:10 AM, TBone said:

Mike, I really like this idea. I'm talking with a friend about building a car, but it would have to be for next season. 

One comment on the rules: In the safety section, under fasteners, you've copied in a 3-layer driver suit requirement. In the roll cage section, it calls for a 1-layer suit. I'd suggest all driver suit/helmet/gloves requirements be in the safety section. And either 1 or 2 layer suits.

Lastly, in either the  first or second paragraph talking about the goal of the class, encourage experienced racers to mentor and help new racers. Racing is more fun when more of the field is competitive.

This is one of those things where I am waiting on direction from the promoter on what's required.  I know he's juggling a lot but I should align those even in a draft.  A couple things like that I just let sit as there is no final direction yet.

You don't want to skimp on safety but you can cut costs in a low-risk low-cost class.  Just depends on insurance.

[MikePeters95]

18 hours ago, NickHolt said:

For instance, in the draft section on alignments:

The suspension arms, links, spindles, shocks, springs, and struts must be OEM or OEM equivalent parts, no aftermarket performance parts.

The meaning of the term "OEM equivalent parts" is an open invitation for creative definitions of the term.  Likewise, "aftermarket performance parts." Some companies catering to the budget racing community advertise their pieces as "OEM equivalent " or "OEM replacement parts," but are significantly different from the original OEM components in ways that help the handling of race cars. 

However, to assist with tire wear, components above the spindle may have the mounting location slotted for alignment purposes only. 

So, upper a-arm mounts and upper strut mounts can be altered.  This tells anyone with even a small amount of suspension knowledge that critical camber and castor settings are basically free, like in the "Pro" classes.  Caster split is now available as well as radical camber settings just like in the upper racing divisions.   And if Tech asks, just say you made the changes "for alignment purposes only."

The arms, links, and components must remain stock, but the holes on the chassis can be slotted, or have shims added if there is not enough range in the alignment abilities from the factory.

Allowing chassis slots is asking for teams to start playing with bump steer technology and messing with roll center heights. 

Any bolt on parts found to be modified will be deemed illegal, only slotting of holes and shims may be added on the chassis side for the strut mount, or upper control arm, for alignment purposes only. Tech has the right to refuse allowing any modifications deemed beyond this illegal.

Anyone with knowledge of front end geometry will jump all over these allowances "for alignment purposes." 

So far, I have just addressed the front end.  Wouldn't a suspension guy love it if they could slot the chassis mounts on the rear end?  I'm not even going there because I don't want to divulge too many secrets learned on Metric Chassis. 

These rules seem destined to undermine the intent of this class.

Unless I read it wrong, there seems to be a 200 lbs maximum spring rate allowed.  A 200-pound spring in the front end of a car running a-arms will bottom out.  A 200 lbs spring in a strut car is felt at the tire contact patch as much stonger than a 200 lbs spring in a two a-arm car.  

Just a few of the things I noted while reading the draft rules. 

Nick, if anyone shows up putting a ton of engineering into a car like this, It is my goal to make sure that they are both ridiculed beyond an acceptable level of shame, and just bumped out of the class.  Tech director has final say and I'm pretty confident in Karl at HMP as is most everyone there, and he has the ability to discern "spirit of the rules".

Yes, some sad pathetic person who couldn't hack it in a real class could totally overengineer a car for this class, and they'll get kicked out in two seconds.  The rule book is clear on the purpose of the class.

I agree with your concerns, you've met that guy, I've met that guy, and when that guy decides he wants to ''show the world what he can do'' after he didn't do anything in a real class, and builds some cheater car for this class, tech will show him where the front gate is and he can show everyone how he can exit the front gate while everyone else is having fun racing, or they can run in bootleggers and get lapped in the single-digit laps of the race.

I agree with what you are saying 100000000%.  Trust me, I do.  But this is where the promoter, and tech, and other members of the class also have their say in what isn't going to be put up with in what is built, billed, and advertised as a beginner, low-cost, entry level class.  It is obvious when something is done to prevent tire wear as opposed to someone going completely off the rails overcomplicating a build and getting outside the scope of the class.  Same with spending money on stuff.  I think I put it in there quite a few times but maybe just need to on any line item, but tech and race director / promotor have the right to reject anything as seen as a modification or performance enhancement on any vehicle, at any time.  Stock means stock.

The purpose of this class is to get people racing who aren't racing and don't have the means for other classes.  This is a participation trophy type class, where just getting out there is half the victory.

Could also just lower the claim price where any car can be claimed for $3500, any car deemed by tech to be outside spirit of the rules can be claimed by the track and tech for $1000 with a list of fix-its and be sold off to the highest bidder starting at $1500.  I think that will eliminate a lot of the knuckleheads who'd want to club baby seals in this class knowing their stuff will just get impounded for $1000.  Sure someone will get mad when it potentially happens but it gets the point across.

___________________________________________________________

Seperate conversation:

You have a good point about transmission coolers and radiators.  No performance advantage and little to no cost making the cars more durable. I am just one person which is why I've asked for feedback and as always I appreciate yours greatly.  While folks can totally beat the brakes off the car, I think one of the cost controls and speed controls on this class will be stock calipers with fluid/pads.  Will keep the cars slow and won't be a huge secret to not blow the brakes off the car.

The spring rate thing was just a random number for a draft version of a rule book, again this is just a draft and will need a lot of specific stuff for platforms once it gets going.

I'm still working on getting some details from Owen on some the safety stuff then building a big spreadsheet with every car I can conceive with power/weight/OEM rates, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

[JamesHigdon]

A few ideas/suggestions. 

1) Weight penalties (big ones) when cars start winning/dominating so there's no incentive to push the rules.

2) Run it like a bracket race. If you break out you now run with the Bootleggers.

3) Assuming cars show up run it like a Pro/Am event. All cars on the track at the same time running 2 different races. The "Am" bracket is over a certain time limit with less experience and the "Pro" bracket is the faster cars. 

[DriverX]

Here is your rules for an entry level RWD class. Pretty much every asphalt track in Florida has adopted this class and rule book and 5 flags speedway has double digit car count in less than 3 nights. Thunderhill had a class very similar to this and it was popular. 

5 flags crown stock.pdf

[Bobby]

21 hours ago, JamesHigdon said:

A few ideas/suggestions. 

1) Weight penalties (big ones) when cars start winning/dominating so there's no incentive to push the rules.

2) Run it like a bracket race. If you break out you now run with the Bootleggers.

3) Assuming cars show up run it like a Pro/Am event. All cars on the track at the same time running 2 different races. The "Am" bracket is over a certain time limit with less experience and the "Pro" bracket is the faster cars. 

To reiterate an idea I wrote about at length a few years ago - If you were to stagger start times according to driver-chosen dial-ins, the class rule book could be similar to the following - "All cars in the class must have a roll cage and safety harness which pass safety inspection.  All cars in the class will be of at least size x.  Any car passing safety inspection and meeting the size requirement is considered a valid race car for the class.  End of discussion." 

It would require some serious thought to determine an effective set of rules for managing the race, and probably some small scale tests in order to reveal areas for improvement.   For instance - how would timing and photo finishes work?  Would timers, spotters and radios be allowed?  How granular would the classes/dial-ins be?  Would you encourage or discourage mirrors and blocking?On the other hand, you wouldn't have to solicit, and risk pissing off, a new batch of car builders to test the concept. 

I believe this would provide a far more interesting format for both racers and fans than a RWD eco class, and be much more sensible and less subject to creative interpretation.  If someone wanted to run a Crown Vic with a supercharger and a wing on junkyard tires or donut spares, running on half of the cylinders,  they could.  Whatever suits their pocketbook, fab skills, imagination, or is most readily available to them ("Hey, I saw an old race car in a driveway last week. We could be real racers next week with no garage or fabrication!  We'll keep it in the parking at your apartment").  They might be running against an Outlaw, Pro Mod or truck, that had to drop out of the feature for a minor problem, or just had just won their class feature and wasn't ready to make a long trip home yet. 

But to me, this would make WAY more sense than the fruitless mental masturbation that periodically goes into developing some miracle set of rules that somehow reconciles contradictory objectives - i.e. simultaneously:  draws entrants, provides visual contrast, minimizes obvious mechanical differences and opportunities for cheating, is affordable, is practically achievable, is easily tech-able, doesn't cause conflict between racers/racers/track, etc, etc, etc.

In summary - Car class rules are the main impediment to racer participation.  Whether it be from making the dollar and time investment inaffordable or unrealistic relative to purses, making the car fabrication difficult and exclusive, requiring sophisticated tuning knowledge, or, during the past several years, making suitable platforms and parts difficult to even  obtain.  

If the central premise (lots of people want to race) has actually been true, then logically the imprediment is that they don't want to race what (or how) the track wants them to race.  Especially given that two classes have been summarily obsoleted at HMP by the stroke of a promoter's pen.  And don't forget how many promoters HMP has had in the last eight years.  So - Stop telling them what to race (with the ever implicit threat of the effort being wasted if the class or promoter doesn't last)...., and give them another option on how....

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Bobby

[JamesHigdon]

3 hours ago, DriverX said:

Here is your rules for an entry level RWD class. Pretty much every asphalt track in Florida has adopted this class and rule book and 5 flags speedway has double digit car count in less than 3 nights. Thunderhill had a class very similar to this and it was popular. 

5 flags crown stock.pdf 313.26 kB · 6 downloads

In my opinion the issue there is it’s another spec class. Why would the person running that class not run any of the other spec classes?

[NickHolt]

Another option is to allow street racers who currently race on city streets to run two-by-two on the oval.

We tried that at San Antonio Speedway, but the track insurance company killed it after a few weeks - once they found out about it!  

But if appropriate safety equipment and personal safety gear were mandated, it might just fly!

 

[24nomo]

Yes,  only rule is that is is licensed, inspected and street legal.

[MikePeters95]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:34 AM, NickHolt said:

Another option is to allow street racers who currently race on city streets to run two-by-two on the oval.

We tried that at San Antonio Speedway, but the track insurance company killed it after a few weeks - once they found out about it!  

But if appropriate safety equipment and personal safety gear were mandated, it might just fly!

 

That's spectator drags.   If current promotional staff can work out the insurance (NHTSA Crash standards for 2003+ and a roll bar for not 2003+ vehicles,  and a helmet seem to do the trick at most tracks who sell this to their insurance from my first hand knowledge of talking to those tracks because they also do drifting, which is where I come from, which also has pretty relaxed safety for wheel to wheel compared to short track racing)
 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by MikePeters95

[MikePeters95]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:41 PM, DriverX said:

Here is your rules for an entry level RWD class. Pretty much every asphalt track in Florida has adopted this class and rule book and 5 flags speedway has double digit car count in less than 3 nights. Thunderhill had a class very similar to this and it was popular. 

5 flags crown stock.pdf 313.26 kB · 9 downloads

I like this and looked at it, but wanted to open it up beyond panther chassis as I'm not sure how long the supply of those will last, and feel like there are several other cheap platforms that would work as well, the Lexus LS400/460 and some other cars in there.  

Good news, Owen did say let's bring the current crown vic guys out on the 28th, and I'm waiting on some safety requirement feedback (just messaged him about it, wanted to let this weekend play out and not distract from it) and will probably throw the rulebook out and see what comes out.

If you're wanting to run this, please DM me and let me know what platform you're looking at.  Did get some feedback I thought was sensible about listing 2-3 platforms, and having a line in there about "other platforms may be allowed, please email a track official" instead of just overwhelming people with options, but then giving the option to folks if they find or have something that may work but is strange, Kia K900, Jaguar XJ, Cadillac Catera, etc etc etc.  Literally, who knows what someone might find for $0-1000 that could run this class and fit in.

Whoever mentioned the breakout rule, I am all about that.  Run a 16.9999999 and you're promoted to bootleggers, 100%.