txtom Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Larry, motor cost is a given in super late models. I don't begrudge those who spend the money to lease or buy a special TMS engine; I'd try to do do it if I had a car. But I do think it is a factor some lesser funded racers weigh in when deciding to run an event like TMS. "when the deck is stacked against you................" Personally, I think a race up there that combined the oval and road course with unrestricted engines would be a better show case for the cars. Remember back to all the posts on this forum about how much fun everyone said the TROC races at TWS were? Take a bow here, Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProTree Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 i see in another post richardsons tms motor for sell asking $30k- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I know the cost to be competitive scared a couple of cars off this time...they did not want to do everything it would take to race there just to be a backmarker...they were basing it off of last year...not sure if that was or wasn't the case this year...but unless you have a sponsor that would benefit from the exposure of that race, the purse alone doesn't justify spending the money...with the right promotion by the teams, series, and TSZ, it could be a big sponsor draw and justify the money it takes to run up front... Your point about the body is probably valid...but if bodies cost $2-$4k and those keep people out, how many are being kept out by motor costs? I have always thought if the motor prices went down more cars would show up...is it possible more would show up if motors were unrestricted? Either way, it's not an easy issue. I think no matter what is decided, I will be very surprised if there is not a full field next year. I respect your opinion and the historical perspective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Definitive Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 The key to a full field of cars there,because of the cost I'm hearing about,must be getting top cars from other series to run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Larry, Lots of racers are kept out of the super ranks due to motor costs. I am more thinking of that racer with a car in the garage, who has the engine, but no money for a body. And it may surprise you to know what a winning USRA engine can be built for, if the racer is willing to do some work himself. Talk to Eddy Wallace about the engine he won at Houston with. Maybe he'll come on here with some figures for you. They build an engine capable of winning for far less money than some spent at TMS last week. Ask Tommy Grimes about the engine he won at Kyle with. Built it in-house. As for unrestricted engines, I think they would be too fast at TMS on the oval, but I think a combined oval-road course race would be ok. You're right, there is no easy answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Larry, Lots of racers are kept out of the super ranks due to motor costs. I am more thinking of that racer with a car in the garage, who has the engine, but no money for a body. And it may surprise you to know what a winning USRA engine can be built for, if the racer is willing to do some work himself. Talk to Eddy Wallace about the engine he won at Houston with. Maybe he'll come on here with some figures for you. They build an engine capable of winning for far less money than some spent at TMS last week. Ask Tommy Grimes about the engine he won at Kyle with. Built it in-house. As for unrestricted engines, I think they would be too fast at TMS on the oval, but I think a combined oval-road course race would be ok. You're right, there is no easy answer. The motor has everything to do about it at TMS, you dont have to have a $30k motor to win at a short track its about the driver and the setup. The 04 won at CCMS and got lapped several times at TMS, he didnt have the horse-power. Grimes was not a contender at TMS but every short track he runs, hes up front...... TMS is all about the motor. The body isnt going to win the race that $30k-$40k motor is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegend96 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I would be curious to know what everybody thinks about racing at TMS. I think racing at TMS only helps the series in positive way. As far as the racers it doesn't necesarrily hurt them, but possibly henders them when it comes to equipment change. I was under the impression that you choose not to run the TMS race due to the enormous amount of work and additional money to prepare your car only to change it back to a true short track car in two weeks. If that is your intention, I do not disagree with you. The only thing that needs to change is the tires. As far as the tires go.....We all know the USRA is tied in a contract with Day Motorsports for tires. I am not sure how much longer this contract has before the expiration date. Posssibly someone else on here knows. The American racer that ROMCO / USRA have been using is the same tire that the Busch North Series uses. The issue for our cars at TMS is a fairly simple one that was brought up last year in another thread. The Busch North Series have heavier cars. The compound Day Motorsports is using is for that weight. For a tire to dissapate the heat correctly it must wear. For it to wear correctly the car must be heavy enough. The USRA cars are to light. Since the weight of the car can not force the tire to wear the only way for the tire to release heat is to blister. On the thread from last year there were some pictures. If I remember correctly some of the pictures taken showed tires that didnt have 30 laps on them. I am not criticizing the USRA as they have inherited this contract in the take over from ROMCO. ROMCO even did a tire test before the 2003 TMS race in which Greg Davidson blew a tire with under 10 laps on it. Hit the wall, car caught on fire, etc. They sent the tire off to be inspected at Day. I dont remember the exact response (second hand info) that Day gave but I believe it was there was nothing wrong with the tire. I believe it is Day Motorsports trying to push what I call a "will fit" tire in to a situation that it does not belong. Only very well financed teams have a chance at winning at TMS. And those teams spend extra money for a motor to run upfront. Most others go just to say they have raced on TMS. Cost of running a super late model is out of sight for most budgets Speaking of motors Greg Davidson was way under some teams that finished up in the front when he set the pole and won at TMS. Some were 30+hp above him. Your right in the respect that every budget can't afford it. Thats why these cars go from the run of the mill and crappy looking to exotic and very clean. Inflation, steel prices, and labor; they have all gone up over time while margins have gone down. Thats just part of the deal and it effects everything. I takes more money to drive to work today than it did last year. As my dad has said to me several times "Not every person is wired alike, and if we all were, wouldnt we all have the best of everything." Some people dont have to hit a lick all week and make a fortune, while others do thier work and others just to struggle. That just part of life. Don't complain that others spend thier way to the finish, when I know first hand of others that didn't break the bank and are competative every year they have run TMS. But to justify my point there are people that were known to spend close to 100k for one race and were not really competative. I giess what I am trying to say is money only gets you so far. Alot of people get taken b/c they are so caught up in the hype that it will win the race. Yes it takes some money but knowledge is what gets you in the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 The motor has everything to do about it at TMS, you dont have to have a $30k motor to win at a short track its about the driver and the setup. The 04 won at CCMS and got lapped several times at TMS, he didnt have the horse-power. Grimes was not a contender at TMS but every short track he runs, hes up front...... TMS is all about the motor. The body isnt going to win the race that $30k-$40k motor is. That is the exact point of these postings. We all know about the cost of, and the R&D in the TMS engines. My point about the short track engines is completely separate from the TMS engines. BUT, lets go back to those TWS races. The teams I worked with spent very little money on engine modifications to run the course laid out up there. The point about the bodies is not about the bodies winning the race; it is about racers sitting because they did not have the ABC body on the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Txtom, I know of a few cars that didnt come because of their motor(blown, no HP, etc) and they have the abc body. If you dont have the abc body or cant afford the body you can run one race, then the car will be parked. The thread was about TMS not TWS nor short tracks or am I missing something, I dont Know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 They should allow non ABC bodies to run with extra weight, we need the cars. I feel they should allow you to drop one or two races from the points so more cars can participate in the points chase. Some guys who only have one motor or car get knocked out of the chase if something breaks and they can't make the two week turn around. Same goes for TMS, If you choose not do go for money reasons, your out of the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Tom...I think there are as many or more cars sitting without motors than because of bodies...But I could be wrong, just ask my wife... Eddy how come you didn't race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegend96 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I feel they should allow you to drop one or two races from the points so more cars can participate in the points chase. Excellent point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Larry- Eddy never runs TMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Y? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 racerx, the 3k won at Houston caught me up on racing bills and went toward a few improvements for SA. There was nothing left for three days at TMS. Besides, I only show up to win races, no other reason. I would only run TMS if I had the proper budget to have few test days, engine, ect... Final note: if you take a close look at the five car, it is not legal at TMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegend96 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Yeah Larry, The 5 car has titanium muffler bearings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Man Legend, how could you tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegend96 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I wasn't supposed to tell but one of your lady fans from Houston told me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arts22 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I wasn't supposed to tell but one of your lady fans from Houston told me. He did have a REALLY nice fan base in Houston............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Definitive Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 If they did drop one bad race from your points total,what would happen to the car count at TMS then?Would someone like Tommy Grimes really show up for the event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacecar Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think Eddy doesn't want to change his grille opening just to comply with the special TMS rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinmcgee Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Richardson TMS motor for sale USED for 30K???? Now do you understand why there are not more cars running at TMS!!!! How many of the local guys can pay for or rent one of these for ONE weekend???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44SS Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 REALLY nice fan base, yeah just ask my wife! I think txtom has an excellent point about includding part of the road course and part of the oval,with a non restrictor plate motor, (short track motor) and make the race about how quick the cars are and not the top speed. No matter what you do, spoiler angle, take the plates off ( which is too dangerous ) the cars are still going to look slow compared the bigger series that run there. Without the plates they wouldnt be slow but might need to have an air traffic control tower. Allow the non ABC body cars to run with a weight penelty car count and maybe bring in some out of series cars. Also if the track was laid out right the engines wouldnt get abused running wide open all the time, this should help the low budget teams and keep the cars closer together. I think the TWS references point out historical facts that seemed to have been sucessful. There is wire mess on that grill, so I dont see the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisFrost Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 TMS on that race weekend is configured as an oval, campers in the infield, temporary walls blocking the entrance to the infield road course from the back straight, and so on. I don't think the TMS folks would be hip to the idea of the USRA race using the road course. Heck, since they put the fences up on the inside walls, I don't know if the full road course (oval+infield) has been configured. But I admit, the infield road course race for ROMCO a few years ago was FUN. Kris Frost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Heck, since they put the fences up on the inside walls, I don't know if the full road course (oval+infield) has been configured. Yes, they use it for ALMS and SCCA as well as the Panoz school. It is fun, I have raced on it a couple of times. They would have to run USRA as a ALMS support race. Not as prestigious, but maybe it's an option. I like the USRA cars running the oval myself. I was up in the Easy Care Motorsports suite for the races and I was able to hear alot of conversations about the USRA race. So Eddy, all they talked about was the ABC body? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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