NickHolt Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Only eight Limited Late Models competing at Thunder Hill last night - not the number some had hoped for. While Mary Ann and H.E. Naumann have worked hard and smart to make TSRS a resounding success, one has to wonder if some of TRSR's success comes at the expense of THR. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp17 Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Nick, I normally find your posts to be well thought out and fairly reasonable even when I disagree with you. That's why I was surprised to read "one has to wonder if some of TRSR's success comes at the expense of THR." First and foremost THR's Pure, Hobby and Street Stock drivers don't support the LLM class. Since 1999 out-of-town teams have been virtually the only source for new LLM competitors. You certainly can't blame TSRS for that. Towards the end of last season, before TSRS even existed, there were some nights that car counts dipped into the single digits. Why wasn't anyone looking for someone to "blame" then? I've seen it posted that were it not for TSRS, Thunder Hill would have benefitted more from the demise of SAS's Super Street class. Perhaps, but I coulda won the lottery last night if someone else hadn't. I suspect that the SAS LM and Sportsman classes would have been (are?) the primary beneficiaries. Most importantly, I think you are failing to consider the role a reopened and viable HMS plays. Were it not for TSRS, Houston based teams would be gradually adapting their cars and leaving THR one by one to race at HMS, for good. Not to take anything away from the Callaways, they are great people, treat us well and have a nice facility but how long would you keep driving 200 miles to go to Six Flags after Disney World opened in your back yard? Given the lack of criticism, one must assume that the SAS Late Model count of 13 last night is "acceptable." Ironically that is one less car than THR would have had if the "core" Houston teams showed up. In fact, there were a number of nights last year when half the field was comprised of out-of-town teams. We will still race at THR and by the end of the season will spend about as much money there as in years past. From my perspective TSRS is solely responsible for that. TSRS is keeping a significant Houston based revenue stream coming through the THR pit shack window, not the other way around. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Nick, I gotta go with JP on this one... Plus, didn't we have this discussion a few weeks back, right around the time of the TSRS SAS race.... I seem to remember something about chicken vs. bull ... Give it a break dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 JP and Brad, There are a number of us who have followed pavement stock car racing in Texas for years who share my concerns, as unreasonable as they may seem to you. From your perspective, I can certainly understand why a Houston-based Limited Late Model team would take exception to my wondering if TSRS has an effect on the THR car count. The arguments you present as to why a Houston race team would support TSRS are well thought-out and entirely valid. Quite frankly, if you and Yale and Hudak (and other Houston-based LLM teams) didn't support TSRS it wouldn't make sense. For the sake of argument, I'll go along with your position, JP. Let's assume that the formation of the TSRS has had no impact on the car count at Thunder Hill and that, as you suggest, TSRS has actually added to the revenue stream at THR. To follow that argument through to its logical conclusion, if you and I were to form a new touring series based on the THR Street Stock class it should increase THR's revenue stream while not impacting the THR Street Stock car count. Don't you see the fallacy of this line of reasoning? You bring up San Antonio Speedway. Frankly, one has to wonder just how much longer the out-of-state owners of San Antonio Speedway will be willing to run in the red. Certainly the TSRS is not responsible for the many woes at SAS, but I do see a few San Antonio-based cars on the TSRS roster. I keep hearing that SAS needs to show a profit this year or face serious consequences. And you also bring up the Houston Motor Speedway deal. I wonder just how much longer H.E. Naumann (TSRS) and Robert Mullins (ROMCO) will be willing to pay the purse at Houston Motor Speedway (your backyard) out of their own pockets. According to published statements attributed to the HMS owner, he has no intention of paying purses at his track. You, having successfully organized and promoted a post- season event at HMS along with Yale, probably have some idea of the financial challenges faced by race organizers in the absence of purse support from HMS. The bottom line is that if THR, SAS and HMS were no longer available to the touring series for whatever reason, that would leave the yet-unopened Bad Boyz Speed-O-Rama in Austin and Corpus Christi Speedway as the remaining options. I really don't believe this doomsday scenario will come to pass. But I do believe the problems faced by paved tracks in Texas are serious enough that we all need to work together (even unreasonable old-timers like me) to find solutions to those problems. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Nick, What part of "give it a break" didn't you understand? Jeeze! Let it go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Brad, If you are tired of reading about this important issue, nobody's forcing you to participate in this thread. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 OK Nick, I hope all enjoy your pontification on this topic... I think my position is clear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp17 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Nick, you disappoint me. You base the bulk of your rebuttal on a statement I never made and then bolster your argument with "me and some other old guys are concerned?" I haven't been accused of being young in a long time but give me a break. First, I never said that THR would or should profit more from the existence of TSRS. I simply stated that were it not for TSRS, Thunder Hill would be in the process of losing most if not all of it's Houston based revenue stream due to the re-opening of HMS. That is not happening and TSRS is the sole reason why. Most importantly, you failed to address the root of my argument, namely that unlike most tracks, the drivers from Pure, Hobby and Street Stocks fail to gravitate towards the top class at THR. Look at SAS, how many of the LM drivers there previously competed in other divisions? Now look at the THR roster and ask that same question. You'll get a very different answer. The LLM class at THR has been articifially bolstered by out of town participants with no other options for years. Now that there are other options that is a bad thing for racing? JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 JP, Sorry I disappoint you. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Let me add a little bit to this thread for the SAS perspective. This is a little more in regards to how losing the SSS class as SAS has helped or hurt the track. Out of the current drivers that run TSRS from San Antonio on a regular basis only 4 were viable regualrs last year that would still possibly compete this year. Most of the SAS contingent that left had run inot serious money problems and might not have. here is a short list on what I have found out on the current drivers in the TSRS from SAS. 1. Dave Edwards- Probrobly one of the more secure finacially of the group that was left by SAS 2. Jeremy Hernandez - busted his motor at SAS TSRS race out of money. 3. Robert Barker - Rumming limited Sched on limited funds. 4. Jamie Fuller - Still has NASCAR Fine imposed for not tearing down motor last year. Won't be allowed to race a NASCAR sanctioned race untill paid. 5. Beau (I'm not gonna mess with the last name)- Still working out the kinks on a new car but doing well 6. and 7. Alexander Bros. - Don't know much on their situation 7 cars and more than likely only 3 or 4 would run a regular sched. I think that in a way the TSRS has given a very viable option to the racer that doesnt want to spend alot of money but still compete on a constant basis. It is easy to see why THR is hurting with car counts. I don't think that Mrs. Naumann's intent was to put THR out on the street corner. Her putting together this series was a great thing for the SAS drivers and alot of the Out of Town drivers that didn't want to race one track all the time. Hindsight is always 20-20 but there isn't much you can do to change what has happened. Maybe THR needs to do something more lucrative to keep a larger amt. of their cars there. Just curious Nick how is the TPS doing car count wise this year I haven't really followed them that much to see if they have had a drop off in cars like most of the other series have had? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ups88john Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 its funny how brad looks just like nick. last time i saw brad he didnt have the beard lol. big john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Marc, TPS participation has dropped off too, although there are several teams building TPS cars that we should see in the not too distant future. Your points about SAS and its relationship to TSRS are well made. I personally support TSRS and applaud Mary Ann and H.E. Naumann for their putting together such a dynamic series. I only wish all Texas-based racing organizations were so effective in promoting and advancing their series. I just wish there were some way we could all work together to promote short track pavement racing in Texas. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romco??? Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 I'm not speaking on behalf of the alexander brothers by any means but by saying they were not the most finacially secure team behind edwards is a joke. they probably spend more on tires a year than edwards does all year. but i think i know by chatting with them briefly they would not race at sas because of their problems with management and their belief that they got the raw end of the deal with the salazar team last year. i just think it is funny that you said edwards was more finacially secure than the alexanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romco??? Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 also i know for sure from talking with them that if the alexanders were not racing tsrs they would be racing thunder hill llm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Well Like I had said I dont know enuf about the alexanders to know where to put them I did know that they have had their issues with the track tho sorry for the confusion... Also I didnt number them as how well off they were just numbered the San Antonio Drivers in TSRS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Big John, LOL.. You'd think we were twins or sumpin.. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp17 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Sounds as if you've got a plan Nick. Wipe the slate clean and propose something. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 JP, Can't say we have come up with a workable plan, but a couple of people are kicking around a few ideas with me. At this point we are miles from anything even romotely concrete except to agree that 1) there is a definite problem with Texas pavement stock car racing and that 2) concerned individuals shouldn't just stand by and watch local tracks struggle and perhaps go down the tubes. But we're so far from getting a handle on what's really needed that we haven't even consulted a lawyer about forming a non-profit organization yet. Any constructive ideas you may have are welcome. Feel free to email me at cnholt@sbcglobal.net. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SASPEEDRACER24 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Calvin what do you mean by the whole Kyle guys running SAS? After being in the pit area enough times what is lacking at SAS right now is 'new money' most of the resources for sponsorship at SAS have slowly dwindled and there is starting to be more of a disparity between the guys on top and the ones in between. The way it stands right now in Sportsman Marcus Bellino is so dominant that he could very likely start scratch in each main and still win provided no one put him in the wall. Now in LM there are about 5 cars that could win on any given night. Average Car count for Sportsman is roughly 18. Average car count for LM that acually run full boat and not pull off is about 12 to 14 depending if you count the two that were suspended. The major issue is getting the roadrunners to come out. Lets say average Joe Shmo running Roadrunner comes out if and so far this has been an if SAS gets roughly 10 Road Runners with an Average of 2 people in the pits and Average 2 family members in the stands thats an increase of 50 people that come out to the show... Now the question is how much would that increase the total number of people that come out to the track. Probrobly not much but what it does do is that it makes the track more profitable and in the long term with this economy more improvements can be made in other areas from what I can tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildRacer5 Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Racing in Texas has always had it's ups and downs. However most of the points on this page have been made over and over again! It's like beating a dead horse with a broken baseball bat that you used to hit him with last week. As it has been stated with the exception of ROMCO most of the active car counts for any series this year is from 12-18 cars. THR LLM avg 10 cars THR SS avg 16-18 cars THR HS avg 10 cars THR PS avg 6 cars (That's a problem) SAS LM avg 12-14 cars SAS SM avg 14-16 cars SAS RR avg 0-2 cars (this is a worse problem!!) TSRS avg 18-22 cars TPS avg 10-12 cars TAMS avg 12-14 cars ROMCO avg 28-32 cars Now it does not seem that any series or any track for that matter is really doing well. In fact most of the car counts except for ROMCO and somewhat TSRS all really suck and are not what they have been in the past. Yes there may be some cause for this, but there is a trend with the car counts they are all going down. Most is the economy. Some is track management at some tracks is bad. We do have a problem on our hands. Yes some at THR have not moved up a class Yes some at SAS have not moved up a class Yes there are not any "new" people coming from the stands to build any new bomber and pure stock cars on another note "disney world" or HMS may not be the answer either. Yes it is a beautiful place but without a solid weekly show at Houston as it has been stated before touring shows just become the norm and lose their value. Also Bad Boyz Speed-o-Roma may not be an answer either. It might make it work. However there are things that can be done to make it work. 1. Keep the rules like THR so you have an abondance of cars. 2. Work WITH THR and make an incentive program for the teams that do want to race twice a week. 3. Promote both tracks so that fans and drivers will want to show up. Now the cost of racing has alway been high. Even as you old timers would say the "glory" days when it was Austin on Friday and Pan AM on Saturday. Yes gas was cheaper then but it was still 100 miles from track to track. The cost of racing has gone up, but the desire to win may still be within all of us. We all, drivers and fans need to find it again. That along with some help from a better economy is what will make racing better again. Well just in my opinion but I bet I just opened the flood gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 WildRacer5, Don't get discouraged with all the talk. This is what forums are for! It's pretty obvious that this horse isn't dead yet. The twin problems of low weekly car count and low weekly fan turnout basic and probably will not go away until solutions are found. Your input and the input of others on this board has started some people thinking and may even generate attempts to come to grips with some of these issues. Nick Holt Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailerman Posted May 20, 2003 Report Share Posted May 20, 2003 Food for thought: If you stop and look at it Racing cost big bucks, as we all know. Economy and cost of racing seems to come up often in these topics. The car count seems to get smaller "in most case's" the greater the cost of the car and up keep. I beleive that this is setting the ground work for the "spec motor/car" classes to being the wave of the future. If you have a class that you run a sealed motor it eliminates a lot of obstacles 1)teams with $ buying their way up front 2)running into lap traffic 2-laps into the race 3)tech doesnt have to be as extensive/or late at night LOL other points to ponder: 1)more competitive racing=fans love it! 2)drastically lowers the yearly cost 3)lots less work on the teams 4)allows more money to be spent on haulers-imagine that!!LoL 5)allows teams to get 2-3yrs use of 1-bullet 6)allows teams more time to keep their cars better appearing-fans/sponsors 7)you can also afford to race more often Look at the success rate of ASA and other spec motor cars I see on the speed channel tons of sealed motor races televised, Look at Iwindale speedway, TV time and spec classes are full fields, We have as many people here as California! by the way, These sealed motors can come from our devoted Texas based motor builders....they need support too!! As far as the economy goes, Sponsors are getting very sparse, its even more important in todays economy to deliver sponsors there moneys worth. They are competing in a very competitve economy, Internet, And large corp America is putting the squeeze on mom and pop shops, and thet have to make thir advertising dollars work more for them now as opposed to doing it because they like you or just enjoy the sport! The bulk of these sponors play the stock markrt games, Look at all the recent loses. if the average racer if he/she makes a 1000.00 a week before taxs they bring home approx. $735.00 a week. Dig this! $3000.00 month - $850.00 rent - $250.00 cell/home phone - $400.00 car payment - $250.00 insurance misc. - $350.00 food - $250.00 fuel for car - $200.00 electric bill - $75.00 cable bill ------------------ $375-left over oohh I forgot, I have my credit card to go racing on!!! not a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meredith race engines Posted May 20, 2003 Report Share Posted May 20, 2003 1000 before taxes man are you hiring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the new kid Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 ONE OF THE WAYS TO HELP THE TRACKS IS FOR THE OWNERS TO START SHOWING THEY ARE GLAD TO SEE YOU SHOW UP AT THE TREACK FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS WHEN WE SHOW UP AT THRW WE HAVE BEEN TREATED LIKE A REDHEADDED STEP-CHILD WE WERE TOLD TO TAKE ALL OF OUR TRUCKS OUTSIDE -OUTHER THAN THE TRUCKS TOWING RACE CARS WHEN THERE WAS PLEANTY ON ROOM IN THE PITS THIS WAS WITH OUT NOTICE JUST ON A WHIM THEN EVERY TIME EATHER CAR TOUCHED ANOUTHER CAR WE WERE SENT TO THE BACK YOU KNOW THIS GETS TIREING REAL QUICK ITS HARD TO SUPPORT A TRACK THAT DOESNT CARE ABOUT YOU WE SOEND A LOT OF MONEY AT THE TRACK PITT-PASSES FOOD TIRES GAS PLUS THE COST OF KEEPING 2 LLM CARS TOGETHER THEN GET TREATED LIKE WE DO YOU GET TO WHERE YOU DONT CARE IF THE TRACK STSYS SOVIENT I HAVE GONE BACK TO THT TRACK TO SEE IF ITs ANYBETTER IT SEEMS THAT THRW IS TREATING MY CREW A LITTLE BETTER BUT THEY HALF TO REMBER THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY TRACK IN T E X A S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 New kid, Your posts are difficult to understand sometimes, but I think I got your drift after reading it a few times. I got frustrated last year also when THR told me that I couldn't park my motorcycle in front of our tow vehicle in the pits, but I understood the history behind the decision, so I didn't complain much. A few years back, they would let anyone park in the pits within reason. Before long, the pits became dangerously overcrowded. They made the decision to allow only tow vehicles in to fix that problem, and to be honest, I think the pits are more organized and safe as a result. You are not being treated like a red-headed stepchild due to this - all of us have to abide by that rule. As far as the judgement calls, that topic has been beat to death on this forum. So far this year, I've seen some great work by the THR officials at making judgement calls. They are calling it like they see it, and if there is a lot of disagreement between the officials, they send both cars to the back. Last week, I saw them put a car to the back that got spun out by another car. The fact is, the driver in front was trying to run the other car off the track every time the faster car attempted a pass. The car in the back finally had enough and spun the guy out. The officials saw what had been going on and put the car in front to the back. I'm not trying to start an argument with you here, but I wanted to share a different viewpoint than the one you had voiced. Good luck this week, cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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