KELLY83 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 I've kind of thought about this after reading through these posts... If guys in the Houston area only want to race once a month... then why not host a ARTS race once a month and go then. Just because it's a touring series doesn't mean ya have to go to every race. You only go to the ones you want. I just think it's a bad idea to start a different truck series.... especially when you already host ARTS races. Last years season ending ARTS race at Houston was probably one of the most exciting races of the year. But now with a new class it does nothing but thin out car counts and hurt everyone. Support what's already there til it's so big that another series or class would be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Bradley, The 10 truck was fast, but not fast enough to pass the 66 on the outside. You know how it is at THR; in order to pass a car using the outside, you've got to be 3 to 5 tenths faster than the inside car and really be on top of your game at the same time. If not, you'll end up losing positions. With the 22 truck on his tail, the 10 probably knew better than to go high. I think this is why the local classes put on such a good show at THR. There's a pretty large difference in the lap times between the fastest and slowest cars, and this allows for some good 2-groove racing. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Thanx, zoom. I try not to be hypocritical and I occasionally get a little overly-passionate about the sport I love. (Like now-LOL) I'm a little concerned on the direction it's headed. Not just around here, but many Texas tracks, excluding maybe the D/FW area, are having car count/fan count problems as well. Adding more classes, series doesn't seem to be the panacea to me. This was also one of the first questions I asked the TracGroup guy. "Where are the cars going to come from, weekly racing series?" You sound like you'll be an excellant example of what a true weekly racer is. Good luck in your endeavor. If you ever need help loading your car and I'm around, just give me a shout. I'll be glad to help ya out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckLicata Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Okay, I promise to keep this short--it won't take you more than "4 minutes" to read it--ha! Touring series--yes, it does seem that EVERYONE wants their own these days, huh? Like I told Nick on the radio show this past Saturday (great interview Nick), I honestly believe the touring series is the wave of Texas racing in the future...I've been saying that since the show started in Feb. and stick by it.. TSRS--You need to get OFF the bandwagon that TSRS put the "hurt" on Thunder Hill! TSRS offered late-model drivers the opportunity to "tour" Texas once every 2-3 weeks--those drivers still have the option to run EVERY weekend at THR or another local track... Texas racing in general--Yep, local tracks are hurting, in general..however, A LOT of the local tracks are hurting because of bad planning the past few years--they didn't take advantage of the good economy way-back-when, they didn't build up a loyal following when the fans USED to come out to the tracks, they don't take care of their drivers now....And now, their answer to their problems---charge a heck of a lot more money at the admission gate and at the pit window, it's a "vicious cycle" game that the track owners are going to lose because fans and racers are going to refuse to pay MORE money for LESS entertainment and services... Okay, that took 6 minutes--2 more minutes than allowed under the "Rebel" time limit! ha! Chuck L. p.s.--yes, I humbly and honestly believe I'm in the club of racing people who preach the "gospel of racing" and "put my money where my mouth is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchellracer Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 To All, I too must defend the TSRS series. As a former SCCA road course and autocross driver, a huge fan of local track racing and a sponsor of many of the local racers, please understand my comment. One of the main reasons TSRS is experiencing success, there was a calling for the series. Arguments can be made, as have been discussed before, regarding whose responsibility it is to get butts in the seats at the track. The wonderful and professional treatment to the drivers, fans and to the many "free" officials for TSRS is a testament to all tracks. I, as a paying sponsor, wish much success to anyone that stops focusing on personal issues and concentrate on the BIG PICTURE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Why would anyone have a problem with a someone actually doing something for the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 gasman, I really don't think anyone here would have a problem with a someone actually doing something for the sport. Some of our members, however, apparently feel that starting a new truck series where a truck series already exists is a move that might actually hurt the sport in the long run. I feel confident that this is the position of those who are questioning the need for this new truck series. Similar questions were raised when the Texas Super Racing Series was formed. And quite frankly (no pun intended), the car count at Thunder Hill Raceway seems to have taken a pretty big hit this year. So, it is quite natural that similar concerns would be raised with the formation of the Turn Key series. On the other hand, the new truck series is not a touring series at this point and, from what we gather from Joe Napoleon's posts here, they do not plan on running on nights that ARTS is running nor are they attempting to compete head-to-head with ARTS. From my point of view, I just think it's great that we have a place where viewpoints from both sides of the issue can be aired in a civil, polite and (hopefully) intelligent way. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy5249 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Well bradely if they where from corpus they wouldnt have thought about goin high. They would just rooted you outta the way JK guys. No but i do agree why dont many people try to run high at kyle. Never been on the track so i dont know maybe yall can fill me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 From Chuck Licata TSRS--You need to get OFF the bandwagon that TSRS put the "hurt" on Thunder Hill! TSRS offered late-model drivers the opportunity to "tour" Texas once every 2-3 weeks--those drivers still have the option to run EVERY weekend at THR or another local track... I also have the option of purchasing Coke or Pepsi at the grocery store... the choice is mine. This is as it should be in the free enterprise system called America. Direct competition usually produces better products and cheaper prices for everyone. I LOVE AMERICA!!! But to suppose that the TSRS and the Limited Late Model class at Thunder Hill Raceway are not in direct competition with each other is just not facing reality. The LLM car count at THR was seven on opening night and was nine last weekend. That's an average of eight cars competing in the top THR class. Should Brian can the LLM class? Close the track? Grin and bear it? It's great that the TSRS has managed to put together a viable touring series. Mary Ann and all who are connected with the TSRS program have a lot to be proud of. But some in the racing community are legitimately concerned that the price of TSRS's success may actually be more than anyone bargained for. That's because when THR hurts or SAS hurts, pavement racing in Central/South Texas hurts. As several people have already pointed out, if THR or SAS close, where does ROMCO, TSRS, TPS, TAMS, Turn Key and other touring series run? In Albertson's parking lot? Now here's an idea that might serve both the TSRS and THR. TSRS could enter into an agreement with THR where TSRS points are earned at weekly THR LLM events. That would insure THR has good LLM car counts. I'm pretty sure Brian would be willing to not schedule his LLM class on TSRS race dates in return. I know there are issues involved (e.g. travel to THR every week by Houston competitors), but those and similar issues could be resolved for the sake of the greater good. Just my .02 cents worth. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar2248 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 I never recall the #4 late model (james reeder) being 3 tenths faster than everyone on the track, but yet each week i see him passing cars high, even last year with lots of cars he would pass high. i have seen mark do the same thing, Im just curious, not trying to make anyone mad, but wouldn't every driver rather finish first rather than first loser. I know no one wants to loose positions on the track, but with the low car counts good shows need to be put on, to bring in the fans. And it was a decent show last weekend. HEY Mr. Garrett nice job last weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin35251 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 yeah...it was a pretty good show - or what i saw atleast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Bradley, Look again - James is more than 3 tenths faster than most of the other LLM cars. There are a small handful of LLM cars (really small nowadays) that are as fast as he is at THR, and you won't see him pass those cars on the outside unless they get caught behind slow traffic. I'm a stop-watch junkie at the track, so trust me on this one. I love these discussions about running the outside at THR because it's something that our team is constantly trying to improve upon. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 From Chuck LicataTSRS--You need to get OFF the bandwagon that TSRS put the "hurt" on Thunder Hill! TSRS offered late-model drivers the opportunity to "tour" Texas once every 2-3 weeks--those drivers still have the option to run EVERY weekend at THR or another local track... From Nick Holt The LLM car count at THR was seven on opening night and was nine last weekend. That's an average of eight cars competing in the top THR class. I don't have hard numbers to support this but I'll bet my recollection is pretty close to in line with the hard numbers. I didn't attend any races at THR unless I was actually racing last year but I did talk with many of the drivers and they all indicated the car counts were down then the Houston guys didn't show. On the nights we did show there were usually 16 to 18 cars or so. Of course, the last couple races had more but they were BIG events. Point is this, if there were 1/2 dozen guys from Houston (04, 11, 13, 17, 21, 50) going to THR this year I don't think the THR vs. TSRS issue would be getting debated. Face it, the "local" car count for the class was weak before TSRS came along. The 2002 THR LLM regulars from last year that come to mind are 1, 3, 4, 16, 20, 28, 53, 54, 71. That's 9 cars! Add the 6 Houston cars; throw in the 40, 88 and one or two others and you've got your yourself 16 to 18 cars. Looks to me like the numbers between 2002 and 2003 are pretty close to the same, only difference is the "travelers" are traveling with TSRS instead of to THR. Suggesting that TSRS has hurt THR is a major major stretch at best... I'm not even going to address the comment that the weekly THR LLM shows earn TSRS points because that is just flat out ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckLicata Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 You go, HOUSTONLMO4! Words from a driver himself... Oh, and note to Nick: Yah, your opinion is only worth 2 cents! (Just kidding, of course--you'll ALWAYS have more than 4 minutes on my show!) Chuck L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck99 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Brad, I think you've made basically the same point as Nick and some others have made, myself included. You said it yourself, these cars have chosen to travel to the TSRS races instead of THR. This is the exact point I've been trying to make---the cars you mentioned are not racing at THR because of their involvement in the TSRS, thus TSRS can still be viewed as the primary reason for the lower car count at THR. To put it another way, if TSRS was not around, the cars you listed would probably be running at THR along with some others due to the former SAS super street class being eliminated. I think these discussions have been viewed as an attack on the TSRS. I can't speak for others, but that's not what I ever intended. I'm just stating what I believe to be the cause of one particular change at THR. Like I've said before, I really enjoy the show that TSRS brings to the track. However, I don't see how anyone can deny that it is the primary reason for the lowered LLM car count at THR. cs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 To put it another way, if TSRS was not around, the cars you listed would probably be running at THR along with some others due to the former SAS super street class being eliminated. Shudda, Wudda, Cudda and the ever elusive IF... If it wasn't TSRS it could be the economy, or an HMS late model or maybe a move to ROMCO or who knows something else like a new baby, child in college or loss of a job. You'll never convince me that the root cause of the the THR LLM car count problem is TSRS. There are a lot of ways to look at this issue and we're all entitled to our opinion... I guess we've got to agree to disagree on this point ... I'd be real interested to see the THR LLM car counts over the past two or three years. I would predict a slight downward trend; certainly not any growth trend. Which opens a whole new discussion; why aren't the lower class guys at THR stepping up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 QUESTION FOR HOUSTON GUYS, If HMS ran a class for the Super Street class, and paid some kind of purse, would ya'll be inclined to run every saturday night in Houston? Same question for the SAS Street Stocks. And for that matter the THR guys also. Fact is the TSRS is really for the teams that can afford to travel to race. Local guys could maybe make a couple road trips, and definitely run at their home track, but that would be it. It is obvious in SA and THR that the classes were down the last few years, so I don't think the formation of TSRS is the cause of low car counts, just brought it to the forefront. If HMS had the class, then would all three tracks field 8-9 cars each Sat. night? And then on special occasions run with the TSRS? Hey Jason, I need a smile with my eyes crossed, too much discussion on this subject. Heck with it, Lets just go racin'! Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 If HMS ran a class for the Super Street class, and paid some kind of purse, would ya'll be inclined to run every saturday night in Houston? Yes and no. Yes I'd be inclined to run in Houston... No not every Saturday night. As for your comment on the cost to be in a traveling series... At the end of the day it's really a net zero proposition... Say it costs you $200 to run on a Saturday night and you run 25 races, that's 5 grand. Now say to be in a traveling series it costs you $400 a race (twice as much) but you only run 12 races (half as many), that's $4800. Obviously this is some of that funny Enron math but I think you get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebelracewriter Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 There's an old adage that says, "too many cooks, spoil the broth". Brad(I'm sorry I spelled your name wrong) Hudak--LOL I would think that with no Super Street class at SAS, that several of the guys would have gone to THR this season. So you might pencil them in with your math class. Chuck,I'll ask this in four minutes or less! If everything becomes a touring series, where are you going to race when all the "weekly " tracks close? And you were the one exclusion I should have added, when posing my question. My mistake! Does this mean I have to pay for my own lunch? LMAO Don't misinterperate my feelings towards the Mary Ann or the TSRS series. They've run two races, and I've written stories for both. One of which I wasn't even able to attend. Will I attend or write stories for ALL the rest? Probably not, but I will guarantee ya, that I'll put out any story/results to my contacts, that Mary Ann, Lisa or whomever sends me. My #1 point here is, until you get a truck class established again, adding another truck series, different set of rules, etc., it's just going to hurt both. Case in point, several years ago I took a work crony to his first ever race, it was the trucks that he had heard me talk about. They had about 20, with 17 or 18 starting the feature. He loved them, and bugged me to take him back again. Well the next trip was the following year during a low point and there were only 11 trucks in the feature. He asked, "Is that ALL?" and has never asked to go back. Finally, I still say that adding more series will hurt not only the weekly tracks, but weekly racers to the point of extinction. Hey if I'm wrong, I'll eat my words, because I'm sure some of you will hold me to it. LMAO "And the battle rages on........." DEEP PURPLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Down here in CC the car count seems to be doing fine. Probably because it costs so much less to race down here. However I think if the trend continues some tracks will have to do away with their weekly racing (which brings in their money) and just let touring series such as ROMCO rent it. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Chuck, I guess time will tell the regarding the THR LLM car count... it's still very early in the season. But for now, I'm sticking by my two-cent guns. Maybe I'm getting a little nervous about car counts because I go back far enough to remember what happened to Pan Am once Highway 16 competed with them. Wasn't a happy time. HOUSTONLM04 (Brad), As for my scatterbrained suggestion to give TSRS points at THR being ludicrous, I prefer to call it "thinking outside the box." LOL. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Jason, When the local tracks become renta-tracks, the special touring series are no longer special. They become what that track offers all the time. Let's hope (and help) the local tracks stay in the black. Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildRacer5 Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 I agree with all the points made. There may not be a clear cut reason why the car counts are down. Think of a few years back at Longhorn, 5 super stock a night and the class was canceled. A few years later at THR back up to 18- 22. The LLM / Super stock class has always had ups and downs. Alot does has to due with a lack of sponsorship and a bad economy. It is one of the top classes to race and the car does cost more to operate. As one LLM racer told me, the reason there are more street stocks than late models is that there is nothing that you can buy fron a junkyard to put on this car (LLM) and be competative. But think how many junk yards are out there. That is one way to look at it. I do agree with Brad, without the Houston guys at THR the last couple years there weren't that many THR "Regulars" back then either. Besides if you look at the TSRS roster there aren't that many THR Regulars on the Roster. There are only a handful that are from THR that ran FULLTIME last year. Look at it this way. only the 9, 53, 54, and 77 cars ran regularly the last couple of years. the 1, 3, 58, and Dusek 20(39) cars didn't run all the time. SO yes I do have the new and improved "ENRON accounting degree" but I don't hold TSRS responsible for the low Car counts. I hold THR responsible. Also like Brad stated why run 24 races that pay $500 to win, when you can run 12 race that pay $1,000 to win. Once again ENRON math. OK just my .00000234353 cents worth. Ok with stock options $34,000 worth - J/K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 As for my scatterbrained suggestion to give TSRS points at THR being ludicrous, I prefer to call it "thinking outside the box." LOL. Nick Holt Yep... And some call it horse s*** and some call it bull s***, it doesn't really matter though, cuz all of it stinks... BTW: How big is that box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildRacer5 Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Also Jason, This is nothing against CC Speedway or it racing Down in CC they do not have a class like the TSRS. All the have is a Street Stock Class as top class so the TSRS should not hurt the top class down there. Allthough If some one came up with a SS touring series everytrack would be in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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