Limited Late Models/Sportsman class

[roadracer]

I am just curious how many, if any, would like to see a limited late model/sportsman class run at either Houston, Kyle, or Whichita Falls and how many has a car and would will be willing to run a car in the class. I am thinking something similar to the Texas Pro Trucks but a car using a 602 crate motor or similar hp motor. I am a little biased because I have a nice limited late model/sportsman all dressed up with no place to go but I would think this could be a popular class considering the cost running the 602s. I realize this would be very similar to the TSRS series but with a 602 crate motor and possibly other cost saving rules, the costs would be similar to the Pro Trucks.

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this and please advise if you actuallly have a car or would be seriously willing to run in the class in 2010. If I see enough response, I will take to the higher ups of the all three tracks to see if they would interested. Not that I would have any pull with any of the tracks but it would be worth trying if the interest was there. I believe they used to run a similar class at San Antonio but not positive on this so if anyone knows, please sound off. We might even be able to get some exhibition races before the end of the year or possibly 2010 with plans of going full steam in 2011 (if the tracks buy into it).

 

Thanks

[gundogC3]

I've never asked, is a crate legal in TSRS? It would seem that all you would have to do is change the intake to the 7116 should make it legal. The head's on that motor is the only one's Chevy offer's now. Add larger valve spring's and roller rocker's, should help with h/p....hell I'm just guessing, and wish it was 5:30pm.

[landlord]

The TSRS is pretty close to limiteds.

[Waco Racer]

roadracer - Are you talking about Sportsman/Super Stock like they run at 5 Flags and South Alabama?

 

If so, the Southern SportMods might be filling that desire in Texas right now.

[Truck99]

The TSRS is pretty close to limiteds.

 

Virtually unlimited shock rule, very expensive motors, buy as many tires as you want, full tube chassis....There are plenty of opportunities in TSRS to go as "unlimited" as you want. I understand your point with the tires, stock steering, steel heads, 2bbl carb, etc, but they aren't very limited anymore in terms of cost.

 

I'm not really in favor of adding yet another class of cars. It seems to me like a better discussion to be had would be allowing the super stocks to upgrade a few things - maybe aftermarket bodies, rear disc brakes, weight jacks...but I'm not too sure I'm in favor of those either. Just saying I would rather see that discussion take place than adding a whole new class that would likely pull from both super stocks and TSRS.

 

I also agree with Clifton that the limited mods could really fill a niche. I hope this class really catches on.

[firemdk]

I had a similar car that I was going to purchase over the off season but the deal fell through. I spoke to Jack and to Mary-Ann and the consensus was that the 602 crate was going to be seriously underpowered from the std. TSRS motor but they would allow the 602 crate with the bigger carb to come out and run with TSRS and see how it would do as kind of a test project. If you are interested in that I would contact Jack, he's pretty open to making it all work

[Sonic Racing]

I had a similar car that I was going to purchase over the off season but the deal fell through. I spoke to Jack and to Mary-Ann and the consensus was that the 602 crate was going to be seriously underpowered from the std. TSRS motor but they would allow the 602 crate with the bigger carb to come out and run with TSRS and see how it would do as kind of a test project. If you are interested in that I would contact Jack, he's pretty open to making it all work

Wouldn't that be the same car HMP ran a couple of years ago? The Sportsman Late Model Class? It died when the 604 class came in. The cost for the 604 was a little more money but the rest of the car was the same. Nobody wanted to run the Sportsman class when the Pro class was paying more, more prestigious, and more popular at other tracks east of here.

 

The Sportsman I had was as fast as the fastest TSRS cars at the time. It had less power but we also had 10" tires compared to the 8" TSRS runs. Might be closer with an 8" tire on the sportsman I dont know.

[Whitey741]

I had a similar car that I was going to purchase over the off season but the deal fell through. I spoke to Jack and to Mary-Ann and the consensus was that the 602 crate was going to be seriously underpowered from the std. TSRS motor but they would allow the 602 crate with the bigger carb to come out and run with TSRS and see how it would do as kind of a test project. If you are interested in that I would contact Jack, he's pretty open to making it all work

Wouldn't that be the same car HMP ran a couple of years ago? The Sportsman Late Model Class? It died when the 604 class came in. The cost for the 604 was a little more money but the rest of the car was the same. Nobody wanted to run the Sportsman class when the Pro class was paying more, more prestigious, and more popular at other tracks east of here.

 

The Sportsman I had was as fast as the fastest TSRS cars at the time. It had less power but we also had 10" tires compared to the 8" TSRS runs. Might be closer with an 8" tire on the sportsman I dont know.

 

The Houston Sportsman class was a Super late model type chassis. All tube offset, rack and pinion.

 

They are talking limited late model similar to the SAS "Nascar" limited late model, stock stub, stock steering heavier than what Houston ran. ........I think

[roadracer]

Whitey, that is correct, I was referring to the Nascar "sportsman"class they ran at Houston. I agree the Sport Mods are somewhat filling the need but I would prefer to see a stock car body class running a more affordable drive train package.

 

Sonic-I am assuming the Houston ASA Pro Late Models are same as the ASA series cars? Is this correct. Or are the Houston late models an ASA "sanctioned" class similar to the A-Line cars?

 

SS, would a 602 with a 4 barrel be anywhere near equivalent to the TSRS motors in terms of HP? What about a 604, how would they compare? What would it costs overall to build a competitive TSRS motor, carb to pan? I realize a lot of things factor into overall costs but just trying to get an idea?

[Truck99]

Whitey, that is correct, I was referring to the Nascar "sportsman"class they ran at Houston. I agree the Sport Mods are somewhat filling the need but I would prefer to see a stock car body class running a more affordable drive train package.

 

Sonic-I am assuming the Houston ASA Pro Late Models are same as the ASA series cars? Is this correct. Or are the Houston late models an ASA "sanctioned" class similar to the A-Line cars?

 

SS, would a 602 with a 4 barrel be anywhere near equivalent to the TSRS motors in terms of HP? What about a 604, how would they compare? What would it costs overall to build a competitive TSRS motor, carb to pan? I realize a lot of things factor into overall costs but just trying to get an idea?

 

I think the 602 crate motor is rated at 350 horsepower with the 650 Holley 4-bbl. That won't run with the TSRS motors without weigh breaks. I can't really tell you what a TSRS motor costs to build because I think it varies widely. I would guess you see anything from about 10,000 on the low end to over 20,000 on the high end carb to pan. You can get deals better than that on used motors, but your question was about building one.

 

The ASA sanctioning vs. ASA Late Model Series question if a very complicated one, so I'll just be brief and say that the ASA track santion is a separate beast from the various ASA Late Model touring series.

[Whitey741]

Whitey, that is correct, I was referring to the Nascar "sportsman"class they ran at Houston. I agree the Sport Mods are somewhat filling the need but I would prefer to see a stock car body class running a more affordable drive train package.

 

Sonic-I am assuming the Houston ASA Pro Late Models are same as the ASA series cars? Is this correct. Or are the Houston late models an ASA "sanctioned" class similar to the A-Line cars?

 

The Houston Sportsman Late model was the same car/chassis type the Pro Late Models run now but with 602 crate. The rules are very similar to the ASA late model rules noting the exception of the Crane ignition requirement and the ABC body rule.

 

The Pro Late Model Class is ASA affiliated/sanctioned, like the A-Line SS class, but that is different than the ASALM series. If I am not mistaken the ASALM Series is the semi revival of the old ASA Traveling series. All kinds of divisions

 

So that should help, I mean its clear as mud right?

[fishracer]

The limited latemodels,superstocks,etc. roadracer is stalking about would probably be the most universal car the state would have that could go to any track and put on a good show and draw from a very large pool of cars that are either presently racing or setting dormant. Back in 96 Ervin Breiten put on a great show down in Corpus that attracted cars from all around the state from every type of these cars mentioned. Unfortunately now with the economy the way it is trying to get anyone to travel very far with out so much of a promise of tow money would be fruitless.

 

The thing track promoters and the rules governing bodies IN THIS STATE need to understand and grasp right now is that keeping car count up is like a store needing inventory on its shelves; without inventory, sales will suffer and ultimately they are out of business. Part of this equation is cutting the cost of maintaining and the initial cost of fielding a competitive car for the season.

 

Once the chassis and body are on the car what keeps most teams from the track: engines and tires. Reduce the horsepower of engines to the point where even stock components will be durable enough to withstand multiple nights of racing. This can be done in several ways, the easiest way is to control the amount of air entering the motor. Cut the size of the carb or put restrictor plates that are handed out everynight to the competitors. Replace the tires with harder compound that will last and that new tires will not matter for qualifying. For instance one of the current touring series is running a 8" tire right now that it is mandatory to buy 4 new tires to qualify because how critical track position is and how hard it is to pass. Why not go to a wider tire similar to the one the pro lates run in houston, but cut down the horsepower, the driver will eventually learn how to race as fast as they are now and when they go to pass with the wider tire and less hp will be in more control and will have better braking with the wider tire. The only people that might have a problem with the changes are the racers, the fans will see actually see a better show.

 

One of the most expensive things thats costing racers right now is the whole shock debacle. Yes controlling may be concieved as controlling technology and preventing experimentation which would keep the racers at the lower levels from learning what they need when they move up or in the very rare occasions move on professionally. The rules bodies can protect the racers from their selves by implementing a rule where the shock has to be exposed(for teching and for self policing by the racers)and make them be a welded bearing shock such as the WB pro. Non rebuildable, non adjustable and about 55 or 60 bucks. Now the argument that I can buy one shock for $250(min) that lets me replace 10 or 12 wb shocks is crap. For the reason that when you wreck one of the WB style your are only out 50-60 bucks not 250. I have even seen one of the shock companys that has a 9 shock set of the WB style shocks that they say will cover most of the applications.

 

Another idea is lighten the cars up and put a very limited motor in them and a big tire. Similar to the limited modifieds or the ill teched ASA/Pro Latemodel crate cars. What I mean by ill teched is that the concept is good, but the policing sucks. Teching a built motor with a limited carb/restrictor is alot easier that trying to use the honesty policy with the crates. How many people can afford a $10,000 blessed crate motor compared to a $3500 to $5000 limited carb/restrictor built motor.

 

Heres one of my formulas:

 

Any Super Stock, LLM, Super Late model, big spring,coilover, leaf spring, any body (full body no modifieds)

 

10" hard tire

 

11" engine height (before race with driver)

 

minimum rear weight 50% so even SS can make rear weight and engine setback is not a factor.

 

WB(welded bearing) shocks only, can be coilover. All shocks externally mounted for ease of teching/self policing.

 

5.5 minimum clutch,steel bellhousing, 3 or 4 spd all gears working. Steel driveshafts

 

No crate motors, built motors only, 62cc min on heads. Unmodified/ported Steel heads only (use limited mod head rules)If aftermarket add 50lbs.

 

Performer intake w/350 2bl or 500 with restrictor.

 

Open air cleaner so that everyone has same disadvantage and eaiser for everyone to see what intake each other is using.

 

Overall car weight 3100lb with driver, weighed before race.

 

55%ls weight so that even superstocks can make leftside without major offset wheels.

 

No year model limitation on body.

 

The whole idea right now is survival, so let them run what they brung and fill the pits so they can fill the stands. The rest is up to the promotors.

[lenny66]

We built a brand new car for the 00-01 season at SAS. It was a Super Street Stock. Aftermarket body allowed fiberglass or metal skin, stock front sub, floater rear end, weight jacks etc. We ran until the class was dropped in the 03 season. We ran the inagural season with TSRS and the car has been parked since. We would like to run our car at THR with the street stocks, but the body rule is one of the main issues, weight jacks another etc. We basically have a car that is not a Super Stock and is now no longer close to a TSRS car. we know of a few teams that are in the same situation as we are. We managed to combine the Roadrunner class from SAS with the Hobby Stocks of THR and it seems to have worked out well. Any chance of the cars that are between Super Stocks and TSRS getting a chance to run in their own class (possibly a "Limited Late Model Class") or allowing them to run with the Super Stock class??? Just posing a question. Lenny66

[fast18]

Lenny you may want to see what it will take to make it a Super Stock. When I bought my car about 5 years ago I had to take out the weight jacks on all four corner (be sure you measure for you front upper control mounts ). These cars are so gutted now you probably wouldn't have that hard of a time putting on Camaro skins or whatever it takes.

[roadracer]

Lenny 66, its sounds like you have a very similar limited late model and along the lines of what my initial post was referring too! Again,if we get enough people on board with these cars that are sitting with no place to run, we might be able to get HMP or Thunderhill to give us an exhibition race to get this class started again. I have the same problem in the fact that my car has a limited late model body with weight jacks and number of other things that keep it out of super stock and TSRS. However, I think there are a number of people out there with these cars that would run them if they had a class to run them in. Also ,with HMP becoming a Nascar sanctioned track, I am assuming it is a possible that the Nascar Sportsman class could come back.

 

Fishrace-you could not have said it better and thanks for your comments. I am hoping this thread gets to the right people with the possibiliy of becoming a reality.

 

By the way, I do want to thank the tracks for doing everything the can do to keep everyone running. I think the closest thing they have done to implement to what this thread relates to is the TX Pro Trucks and I just hope it survives. And, I think a stock car class similar to the Pro Truck class would do very well for all the reasons stated above.

[fishracer]

Roadracer, love your enthusiasm. Do not think that just because Houston is now a nascar track that a certain type of car is regulated by Nascar. The track just picks what class they usually aready have and designates is as their premier class and the secondary class the next level. For instance the Pro Lates in Houston are the premier class which will vi for the largest points fund and the largest points fund monies, Nascar does not dictate the rules, they just want the tracks and the drivers money. The drivers do get a chance to win some nice cash and national recognition. The modifieds are the equal to the old sportsman in their category of the series.

[lenny66]

Thanx for the input guys. Mickey, I hear what your saying, but I hate to start tearing down a car that was built for a specific class. I would be ideal if we could run it one night with the street stocks to see if there is an obvious advantage or disadvantage to the cars current set up. As for the body, I have always contended that 3200 lbs is 3200 lbs regardless of the body being fiberglass or metal. Our preference was fiberglass, it was more beneficial for us to work on the fiberglass than the metal skin, and the finished car looks good with some fresh paint. I know there are alot of cars just like ours sitting in shops and garages. By no means am I trying to discredit or talk down the TSRS series, it is the best for late models, but for our budget and time a limited late model class would be cool to have around. No offense intended to anyone at THR or any other tracks. We support THR with our Thunderstock and now our newest entry a GrandStock. Just hurts to see our baby sitting on jackstands wanting to go play. Lenny66