poorboy Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Gasman, you saved me some typing. That is exactly what I was going to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildRacer5 Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Will its not like a PRO4 class has anywhere to race at. The whole idea of sanctioning the series is a viable one by the TPS series to broaden the appeal of both series. Now I believe that 25K is a little steep for any LM either as a 4 Cly. or V-8 but I do like the idea of making a body change on some of the current TPS cars. I think that maybe you build the PRO4 cars but make them a little more cost effective in the beginning of the series to build up a car count. Start out by making a hybrid of a TPS and pro4 car. That way those that want to move up can and those just wanting to build new cars will do so. It makes logical since. Just as someone brought up in another thread or post that with all the popularity of import racing these days there is no reason that the TPS series should/could not be full of cars and have a huge fan following with the right marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 So why not broaden the appeal of one of our weekly classes??? And you think $25,000 is too steep? Well, it may be, but that is conservative. One problem now with sponsors is racers telling them how cheap it is to be competitive. They tell them they can race for $20,000 a year, so the sponsor goes with the deal, they wreck, their season is done after a few races and now you have a pissed off sponsor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 The TPS rules now offer a tube chassis option although you have to have the wheelbase and engine placement the same as a stock vehicle in your manufacturers line. With a few changes to the rules you could have a Pro4 type class, but doing that would render over half of the cars in TPS grossly uncompetitive. I would like to see more of the Pro4 style cars in TPS simply because it would allow for more brand diversity. It would make it easier to have more Nissan, Toyota, Honda, GM, Chrysler, and others in the field. Opening up the engine rule to allow stock DOHC heads using a cast intake manifold and a 350cfm carb might help save on some engine costs. Just some random thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Nick you are probably right about the track times at SAS for a pro 4,I remember down at New Symrna in 89 they were within 1 second of the same time all pro late models were turning,on 8 inch wheels and tires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted October 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Lots of good input here. Gasman -- I didn't know there were any Pro4 cars running in Texas. How can that take away from the local classes? Waco Racer -- I think you wil be surprised by the 2004 Texas Pro Sedan rules.. that's all I'm gonna say about that until after the TPS season is over. Let's just say that Neil and I have been doing a lot of research and talking over this past season. The TPS series is definately headed in a good direction. I just wish you were able to run with next year. Maybe 2005? racechaser -- One of the good things about TPS is that the organization is stable and has been around for 28 consecutive seasons. And Neil and I see pretty much eye to eye on most things and on those that we disagree on we find a way to work it out without too much bloodshed... LOL So I don't think you'd see the kind of strife that the California Pro4's suffered through. 97car -- Thanks for you input on this Pro4 deal. But, hey... Let's finish getting that dirt Pinto converted over to TPS trim and run the full 2004 season. The combination you are running should be really competitive in 2004. JD2 & BigDish2 -- The two Leroy Farmer built Mustangs would probably work betting in TPS. If we do decide to add the Pro4 class it would be based on the California Pro4 model. The two Farmer cars would need some extensive engine remounting and new drive train components to be competitve in Pro4. Tim & Randy Lee -- See what you've started????? LOL Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Never said there was any of them in Texas. However, if you start another class to run in that series, that could keep some from moving up to some of the weekly series which are hurting now, like the local Late Model classes. If the pro sedans want something more exciting, change your rules a little bit, why add to a diluted situation by adding another class. The local tracks are going to have to give the ax to some of these touring series pretty soon. Then its anyones guess where they will start. Noone wants to lose what we already have, but we better try to keep what we have first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy lee Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 lots of pretty good stuff here. i have to clarify a couple of small things. the #31 pro four owned by ronnie lee and driven by randy lee probably cost a little less than 25 k to build. approx 40% of that cost was power plant. we out horsepowered 90% of the cars in california BUT they were turning on a dime. you could build a successful pro 4 from scratch for under 20k. keep in mind that everything was bought new for this car. thats every nut and bolt. no corners were cut on anything. you could buy a good roller from the west coast for around 5-6k,drop a good motor in it and have about 12k in a car that will keep up with the tsrs class in lap times. a question was asked about oss track conditions. the track was completely repaved in the offseason and widened. it is a true 1/4 mile that is as smooth as kyle. its not a paperclip oval but more turn and less straights. i plan on going back the next chance i get. the next planned race is may1st at las vegas. were gonna race a few times a year in some big shows unless texas can get a class together. it wouldnt hurt my feelings to see a local track such as houston,kyle or sa to promote these cars. oss took a chance on these cars and they are their biggest crowd pleasers just 1 year later. now the only opinion i have on a new"touring series." i think if you start a rear wheel drive pro4 class it will definately take a few cars from the tps series. 2,6,30. these cars can be made pro 4's in a week easily. on the other hand i think it would bring a lot of front wheel drives "back" to the tps series. i believe the fierce mustangs have taken a lot of the interest out of some front wheel drive cars. they are simply outclassed. so someone get this pro4 thing going and watch the tps class grow at the same time. p.s. congrats to bryce dishman,,new owner of the 30tps car. good luck in sa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 the pro4 thing is running in California, why not just go there and race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Nick, It's not nice to toy with a man's emotions. I think that 2005 is a real possibility. I haven't received my 2004 membership renewal yet, will the new rules come with that? I'll wait until I read the new rules to comment further on the TPS - Pro4 topic. Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Gasman,I understand your point,but the local tracks need a variety to put on a decent show,people get tired of seeing the same stuff over and over every week,also some classes need time off every now and then to recuperate and repair. These cars can be had for even less as Randy has stated,and would be easier on tires than a 3000 lb car also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy lee Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 gasman, we did "go there" and we will continue to go there until something comes closer. i know its not feasible for everyone to do that but maybe you should go there and see what all the talk is about. you know the old saying "dont expect what you dont inspect." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Randy, where do you get one of those 4 cyl. late model chassis'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy lee Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 they are all over california, utah, and idaho. i believe leroy farmer made a couple out of lefthanders. you can call esslinger engineering in ca. talk to jason and he can probably give you some leads. ours is a ebling chasis built by gary ebling. he now works for esslinger. he could probably give a lot of good info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#84 Dave Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 If I may offer some more info, Dave Carpenter here. The engine builder and Chief Mechanic on Eddie Secords #84 Pro-4 Late Model. There are (3) chassis builders in the L.A. basin alone that specialize in Pro-4 tube chassis'. As Randy mentioned, there's Gary Ebling. JSR (John Soares Racing) builds a good chassis. And Eddie built the #84 and is now Fast Track Engineering with help from Rod Hetrick. They have the complete chassis plate, benders, and dedicated drawings. All (3) of the above builders have at least (2) Championships under their belts over the last (10) years. The main bone of contention among Pro-4 divisions on the west coast has been engine rules. All the chassis' are nearly identical. And among engine rules, the use of an iron or aluminum head, multiple side-draft carbs (Webers & Mikunis versus a Holley 2-bbl) have been the most difficult to provide parity and keep the playing field level. That aspect of Pro-4 out here seems to be coming together better as we move forward. And we all know 4-valve DOHC's are coming. We have 3-4 of them right now. The engine rules are wide open on compression ratio, camshafts, ignition and either a dry or wet-sump oil system. We have tried to keep them that way so we don't become a 'spec' class and allow teams to use their mechanical and engineering ingenuity. We don't allow fuel injection or turbo's/blowers. And dual side-draft carbs are still much cheaper than a competitive racing fuel-injection setup. But we know that will also change over time. You can go to www.secordmotorsports.com , click on Fast Track Engineering and I think there are a few pictures of the type chassis the #84 runs. Discussions on this thread are pretty close to correct on construction costs. The only way you could stuff 20-25K $$$ in one of our Pro-4's would be to start from absolutely nothing and buy everything brand new. Including the engine. It would be worst case for cost. A good used chassis with a good existing engine reduces the initial outlay accordingly. Doing a lot of your own work obviously reduces the costs further. And finally, we don't permit FWD in the southern CA version of Pro-4 because of the safety issue. The Pro-4 record at the very fast Mesa Marin 1/2-mile in Bakersfield, CA is 19.32. Eddie has run 19.50's with ease. That's an AVERAGE speed of over 92 MPH around the track. We have had visions of stuffing a FWD with transverse engine and transaxle in the wall at those speeds and we didn't like the outcome with respect to driver safety. It would be bad enough with a RWD, which has happened a couple of times. BTW Randy, Eddie owns the record(15.84) at the 3/8-mile Vegas Bullring if you plan to attend in 2004. We expect you to blow that to kingdom come! And you're more than capable! Of course, you know others will be trying as well. LOL. Keep those 4-cylinders humming! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted October 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 The following was received from Neil Upchurch, TPS Race Director, regarding the TPS stance towards the Pro4 series. ================================= "A recent exploration into the suggested formation of a TPS Pro 4 Series had proven unresponsive. TPS will not further utilize it’s resources regarding incorporating Pro 4 cars." ================================= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy lee Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 with all due respect to neil upchurch, and i say this with respect, the "idea" of running a pro 4 series in texas was not really meant to be a "spinoff" of the tps. i believe that neil could(as he has proven for many many years)successfully run a class of this caliber but it would have to be one or the other for him. to set the record straight im not one to say or act like "we built a pro4 so somebody needs to start a class for it." from the time dad bought the 1st part to now, we have planned on racing on the west coast, and we will continue to do so. the idea of a pro4 class in texas was a good conversation topic for tsz even if nothing came out of it. i think there is a possibility of making a class but it wont have anything to do with the TPS series. who knows? maybe we could come up with a 1 year series sponsor and a track to support it. i know this would be a lot of work but there are people out there to support and run a series like this. who knows what the offseason willo bring to change the subject a little i spoke with dave carpenter. (he is the lead man for eddie secords 2003 championship winning pro4 team and he thought (just kicking it around) it would be neat to come to texas(no particular track) and have a one on one exibition race with the 31 leemotorsports pro4. he thought it might be nice to show the class a little bit. of course i thought it would be neat too. he too would like to see a pro4 class for the southern us. who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilTPS Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Regarding Randy Lee's latest post on Nov 13th about his suggestion to have a Pro 4 Touring Series in Texas. The only comment I have to add, beyond my post about the lack of responses, after about a month "TPS will not devote further resources to Pro 4 because response to our invitation proved 100% non-responsive" You are right Randy. I had to decide which group to lead. Protecting the investment in their cars was a major consideration. I was told by a track owner, "One 4 cyl series is enough, don't do it Neil!" The existing 28 year old Texas Pro Sedans continue to be my choice. If anyone decides to grasp the Pro 4 torch, he or she will have an extreme test of endurance, fortitude and a multitude of personal tests ahead. from > Neil Upchurch, Race and Administrative Director - Texas Pro Sedans (Nov 13, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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