Racingpurplelady Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I would like to ask for a definition of racing.I would like to know if you are in the lead car and the second car is bumping on your bumper,are you suppose to move over and say be my guest or do you defend your position to the best of your ability?This might mean going high,low or staying in the groove.Altho if you see the second car besides you,you should give him half. Otherwise I would think the second car should just wait for you to make a mistake.I do know that if you are not in the lead and the leader comes around to lap you,you are suppose to move over.What I'm trying to say does the lead car have control of the track.Whats your opion. Carol Yocum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Exactly how is riding around behind someone who is slower than you and waiting for him to make a mistake racing? On a two-groove track, you pass him, high or low, his choice. But he only gets to make one move, he can't weave back and forth. And he can't shut the door when you are halfway up the side of his car. At that point, he can either let you have the line, or there will be a heck of a crash. If you let him close the door, he'll close it on you for the rest of your career. On a one-groove track, you use the chrome bumper to let him know you are faster and are planning to come around him. If he ignores this gentle warning, you do a bump and run, but you do not wreck him. If the track doesn't allow the bump and run, it's going to get very boring out there for drivers and spectators alike. If the track has a rule that spinning the leader puts you to the back and gives the leader back his position, you might as well not race because the leader has no reason not to spin if you so much as breathe on his bumper. Nick Holt has it right: both to the rear. While that still gives the leader some control over the cars behind, it's the best choice and does not require the track to "make a call," which some will always see as "playing favorites." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbeaver087 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 well said tqj3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadRacing19 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 If someone is mirror driving or blocking is that racing? NO! If your car is not as fast as the car trying to pass you then hold a line so the other car has racing room. When someone gets up beside you running them into the dirt or up to the wall is not racing either. That is how most wrecks get started. Not one driver I have ever talked to expected someone else to just move over for them , just give them room to race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerjim2 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 So far I agree with most everything posted so far the only exception being the use of the crome horn. The only reason I disagree with this is because some drivers cant slightly nudge the car in front and will cause spins and crashes that cost money and slow down the racing action.I do agree with the " all involved rule"if a driver crashes into or spins out to avoid a wreck the driver (guys and gals) are involved due to the loss of controll and should go to tthe backof the pack. This keeps any favortism out the call and sometimes makes for some exciting racing seeing a driver come from the back to the front and win a race.I hope we are all here to race not to crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KELLY83 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Watching the mirror is what killed Dale Earnhardt. Â Drive the car and block when you can but do it safely... if they are there beside ya or they have a heck of a run on ya... then ya have to give em room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTONLM04 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 1) RACING IS THE FIRST ONE TO THE FINISH LINE WINS. Â 2) Racing is running your fastest line and HOLDING that line. If someone else can run faster on a different line then so be it, you've got to hold your line. Blocking and mirror driving is for [edited by me]. Respect the man that is faster and he will respect you. Â 3) Racing is not about the chrome horn. The chrome horn can be useful under certain circumstances but you can't dump a guy just because he is in the way, especially if he's honoring #2. The ole chrome horn is for just that, letting a guy (or gal) know you're there, it's not a tool for getting around somebody. Â 4) Racing is teamwork, respect and dedication. Â 5) Racing is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 "Mirror driving" is not what killed Earnhardt. Â Brad- On a one-groove track, when you are behind a slower driver who is still fast enough to keep you from passing on the (non-existent) second groove, what do you do? And is that "racing?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 tq3, Â I think you have hit the crux of the matter in your last post. Â What do you do to get around the leader (or the car in front of you who is a bit slower) at a track like Thunder Hill Raceway or Corpus Chrisiti Speedway? Â Is the leader supposed to move out of the groove when someone is on his/her bumper? I think not. Â Is the leader supposed to mirror drive and move up and down the track depending on what the car behind is doing? Not acceptable, although done quite often. Â Is the car behind supposed to attempt to pass on the outside? Yes, but that rarely, if ever works at THR and is difficult at best at CC Speedway. Â Is the car behind supposed to wait for the car in front to make a mistake or start mishandling? Yes, but that only can last so long before the car behind runs out of time and needs to make his/her move. Â Is the car behind supposed to somehow squeeze the nose of his/her car under the car in front and hope the car in front moves up? Well, this is what we usually see, right? Sometimes it works, sometimes the two cars end up in a slide. Â Along the same line, is the leader supposed to pull a brake check and hope the car behind takes you out and pray that the track officials will rule that the other car took you out and send him/her to the back? I think that happens more than you might imagine at tracks (and sanctioning bodies) where the "at fault" rule is applied. Or to put it the other way around, is the car following the leader supposed to nudge the car in front into a spin hoping the track officials will call it a brake check and send the leader to the back? Â I have heard it said many times that you have to be at least .3 or .4 seconds faster than the car in front of you if you are to pass cleanly on the outside at Thunder Hill. And that is probably close to the truth, at least in the faster racing divisions. Â So, what's the real answer to Carol's question? Rebuild the track so it becomes a two groove track? Well, that would be nice if track owners had a gold mine somewhere out back. Put up with boring, follow-the-leader racing? I hope not. Just let the boys have at it and spin each other out whenever the get stuck behind a car? Well, that's what seems to happen some of the time. Â I really don't have the answer, although I think Brian at THR made a step in the right direction by adding the concrete strip to the outside of the back straight. Â And I think the drivers at CC Speedway have over the years figured out that they can take matters into their own hands. Use the chrome horn if you have to and intimidate the rest into moving over when you come storming up. And only when things get really rough will the track step in. Although, I understand that the track has taken steps this year to cut down on the amount of rough driving. Â At San Antonio it really isn't that big a problem since there are 1.5 grooves available there. The drivers there have pretty much stuck to the traditional "give the other guy the half groove that's left and hold your own line. And once the other car is up to your door, give him the rest of the other line." Â I'm not too sure what happens at Houston, maybe someone can enlighten me since I have only watched the Pro Sedans race there. Â Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ1796 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 seems like some of the cup guys were asked a similiar question recently and the majority opinion was, if you are obviously faster than the guy in front of you, you give him the bump to let him know that you want by and then move him if necessary, and that would be acceptable. But if you come from 2 - 3 car lengths back and run him over it is not acceptable. Of course, everyone of these guys are pros, while on the local tracks, the level of experience and driving ability varies quite a bit. Getting into someone just enough to get them loose so you can get by is easier said than done, some are quite good at it, while others will cause wrecks attempting to do so. I do like the "all involved rule" as it takes favoritism out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Nick- I agree with you, particularly regarding the "Callaway strip" at Thunder Hill. I'm not quite sure why or how, but it seems to have given the drivers more room to accelerate out of two and changed the line into three. Whatever it is, it's working, and we've seen some of the best racing in a long time at THR. I hope no one thought I was suggesting you just come up and clobber the car in front. You give him a chance to race clean, not blocking and weaving, and you try to get by. Unfortunately, a lot of drivers around here seem to think that until your rear bumper passes their front bumper, they can still close the door. The Cup guys don't just come up and wham each other (at least, not most of the time), they use the front bumper as a gentle reminder: "hey, I'm here, and I'm faster than you." Whether or not you have the skill and experience to gently nudge the guy in front to get his attention without spinning him out is another story, but when the track puts the leader back in his spot and sends the "offending" car to the rear, it really doesn't matter because, if I'm the leader, any contact (or anything that even might look like contact from the officials' vantage point) is going to result in, oh, my, my getting spun out by that dirty driver behind me and he'll be sent to the back, ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt5858 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 No, If you are not a lapped car you shouldnt have to move. If they are faster than you then they should be able to pass you, unless they are dirty drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Matt, Â You race at THR in the Hobby Stock division, right? In your opinion, how much faster do you have to be to pass someone on the outside? Â Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt15 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 just my guess cause i ran hobby sticks about 5 years ago there but i would say 3 tenths of a second quicker then the guy in front of you. I may be off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 So Matt. How would you get around a guy at THR who was three tenths slower than you? Try to pass him on the outside and watch the rest of the field freight train by you on the inside? Â Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97car Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Take the mirrors out of the cars and you don't have mirror driving,if you do the guy is trying to look over his shoulder and probably would take himself out anyway. Driving without mirrors you don't know where the guy in front of you is going to go unless he is holding his line and he does not know where you are other than by the sound of your car.Yes I know many argue it is for safety especially for the faster classes,keep in mind when was the last time you saw mirrors on a sprint car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt5858 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 No Nick, sorry but I would stay right behind him or her, and wait for them to slip up. That is the only way to pass someone clean unless if you have the motor to do it on the outside. Â Now tell me how you would do it Nick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer26 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Look at all dirt cars!!! NO MIRRORS!!! Better racing that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickHolt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Matt, Â I'd go back to the rule book, find grey areas to work on to get my car to handle better than anybody else's and then work on getting my lap times down using the high line. All my practice time would be spent working on that high line. Â I know that at THR that would mean that your car would probably be too loose when you drove the prefered inside line. But I would work and work at finding the perfect compromise between the high and low lines and practice passing on the outside until I could pass guys .1 second slower than me. And then I'd start working on cars that were .2 seconds slower than me. You get the idea. Â Here's the good part about being able to run the outside. Your competitors will start to worry about protecting the high line when they see you coming. If he moves up to block, you dive down and take him on the inside. If he stays low, then start working him on the outside to get him thinking. Â That's probably not the answer you were looking for, but, hey. I'm a suspension dude, remember? LOL Â Nick Holt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ1796 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 No, If you are not a lapped car you shouldnt have to move. If they are faster than you then they should be able to pass you, unless they are dirty drivers. So in your opinion, there should be no bumping at all when trying to pass someone? Sounds like follow the leader to me. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tqj3 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 As I said earlier, riding around behind someone who is slower than you are and waiting for them to make a mistake isn't racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette john Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Mr Nick, exactly what i did worked the grey area of the rules and look what thay got me DDDDDQQQQQ and thats not an ice cream float Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 CCSpeedway has been around for 50+ years. It does not need to be torn up and reconfigured. It does however need to be repaved. I hear from a ton of drivers of how slick it is. If it is repaved then there will be more grip. But wouldn't more grip make it harder to pass because guys aren't sliding around as much? I think the main problem at CCSpeedway is the fact that people just ram each other. We have all seen it. If a guy is faster he should spend time trying to pass the guy cleanly. Did anyone hear Darrell Waltrip's view of racing on Wind Tunnel the other night? Racing and successfully passing someone cleanly is an artform. Ramming into the car infront of you is not. Pretty simple. Of coarse some people believe my opinion does not count because I don't race. Take it how ever you want but thats just my .02. Â Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbeaver087 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 jason, from what i hear about ccspeedway they only run steet tires at that track for all classes ,those tires are not rated for the speeds they run on that track . if they would use racing tires their it might not be as slick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Your right. Any idea what the cost differences are between racing tires and the street tires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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