RETIRED FAN Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Hey tire changer, you might think that TAMS officials will have to pull & weigh the cranks for the 50 lb rule. But in fact, they won't really have to do that. If you read the rules, the cranks can't be knife edged. All they have to do is pull the pan & look at the crank. I don't know of any under 50 lb cranks that are not knifed edged. Do you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Jay, Owen told me they were looking for aluminum - spools, lockers, Gold Tracs, etc. You can run a differential if you want as long as it's steel. Any type rearend as long as it's not a QC, which as I mentioned earlier in this thread makes no sense for a traveling series. ModRacer, Although I'd hate to tear an engine all the way down to weigh the crank (it costs a lot of money to put one back together) I have to agree with you; why have the rule? The only problem with opening up the engine rule is cost. We'd (our team included) all be building 37lb crank, lite rod and piston motors, and have you priced a ROMCO motor lately (try $40K - $50K). At least the threat of being tech'ed for crank weight keeps most of us honest. And, if you want to run a big unlimited motor, the rules allow it with I-slicks, ala Newton Barta. Retired Fan, The new Oliver lite weight cranks (44lb) can be bought with no knife edging, so that's not a 100% test. I'm sure they are not the only ones offering that. Besides, if you have the bucks, take a lite crank and put heavy metal in the center of each main journal. Even if the rules specified a GM part # crank, there are after market "cheater" cranks forged with GM part #'s available. If I remember right, TAMS pulled pans 1 time last year (although I've slept since then so I may be thinking of another series). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 hray, thanks for the info on the differentials. Re: your discussion on crank weight, can't the intent of the rule be accomplished with some physical specs? X amount of steel weighs Y lbs. That 44 lb(low Y) crank is the lightest one I've ever seen that wasn't noticeably scalloped out in the counterweights. The reduction in weight is in the pin sizes and the reduction in the diameter and thickness of the counterweights(less X). That reduction needs a really lightweight piston/rod package to get it to balance without a lot(any?) mallory metal. Just thinking out loud about GM engine combinations that can run slicks, if there was a minimum "radius" and thickness for a crank's counter weight combined with oem 350 pins( 2.45 and 2.1?) minus .030 on all pins/journals, don't most of the illegal and or "trick" cranks fail ?(judged mostly visually and with an ordinary caliper,magnet and a little machinist rule). It would seem to me that such a "pan off/informal measuring" look would put cranks within about a 2 pound spread. That's close enough for me without yanking a crank at midnight 300 miles from home. That +/- 2 pound "window" wouldn't bother me if it was 48 to 50. If the inspector saw something in the measurments that he didn't like, he could always take further steps. That Acura/283 bearing size stuff with piston guided rods etc has no business in saturday night racecars...just my opinion. Not trying to be a new guy buttinski, I just enjoy the bench racing. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Jay, I think you've got the idea---I've done a lot of research on rotating assemblies, and the 50lb rule is no hinderance if you have the money (which unfortunately we don't). Think about what really makes a difference in that assembly....it's pistons, rods,bearings and pins. They have to be lite yet strong enough to to be reliable at 400+ hp and, even more important, 8000+ rpm. I have reasearched a dream package that would be completely legal under the existing rules; the only problem is the rotating assem. alone would cost $8000. It's not worth it for a $800 purse, but let TAMS grow like everyone in this thread is predicting and some guy with the money will do it. Now I'll shock you, don't have an engine rule, or just limit CID. That way anyone can make a lot of hp without much money. Anytime you add rules to any class you only add cost because someone will be willing to go to something exotic to meet the rules and get more hp. Then we all have to follow to be competitive. 2 years ago you could be competitive in asphalt mods (it wasn't called TAMS then) with a lowered dirt car. Now the cars that are running up front have floater spindles, special asphalt chassis, gas charged (factory) shocks, special sway bars, high dollar adjustable rear suspensions, rear sway bars, special transmissions, etc, etc. In order to be in the top this year, because of the rules, I know our team has had to spend somewhere between $5K - $10K more than we would have if the rules were more open. We could have spent a lot less and been just as fast (maybe faster). Sorry to go on and on, but you can see this is a pet peave with me. It's like several years ago IMCA changed the rules on transmissions. They said in order to keep costs down you had to run a transmission with the clutch in the bellhousing. Muncies are scarce and expensive and Saginaws are heavy, so everyone went out and bought Richmonds, or Tex Racings and 5in clutches at a cost of $3000+. When IMCA finally realized what they had done they changed the rules again to allow internal clutch trans. which cost $1500. DECREASE THE RULES AND YOU DECREASE COST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 hray, Just as an exercise, which of the following would you choose if they were the only two choices and you were starting from scratch, not invalidating anyones existing parts: 1. Every rotating part has a minumum weight---> for example, the equivilent weights of "regular, boring" Callies $700 crank, Crower sportsman rods, srp flattops, etc. You build it, you freshen it. Series inspects it as discussed above. All they need to add is a simple scale. If you have a head off and the pan off what's the big deal about pushing one rod and piston out? If the scale weight of a piston/rod is way light , either the rod , pin,or piston is out of spec and as a result you are out of luck! Even Cup cars have component weight limits. If you control the bobweight to a relatively high value, isn't a 37 lb crank unusable? 2. GM sealed crate 4K engine jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modracer Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 If I would have my sayso I would love to have just a tire rule. No limits on the motor or nothing. Look at the rules for the cars in florida or Alabama and they generally just have a cubic inch rule along with a carb rule. And its really not a carb rule if you run a four barrel you have a 50 pound weight penalty. They all run on the treaded tires I believe. Jay I dont like the sealed crate engine because that doesnt limit the cost either. What a lot of the top teams in ASA are doing are just going to buy a lot of the motors and then going to dyno them and see which one produces the most power. I say just go to a tire rule and then you can go and build whatever motor you want and then the only thing is getting it down to the ground. You can build a big motor with high compression or you could build a flat top motor. Basically the only hinderance would be trying to get the power down to the ground. These cars are light enough that you can spin the tires off of the corners. So to me that would be the best set of rules because then you wouldnt have to worry about tech and someone cant say that so and so is cheating, plus its good for the series because they dont have to worry about tech when its done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I've got to agree with ModRacer. We discussed that very issue - we thought about building a car for the Houston crate motor L/M series. As soon as our driver and mechanic found out you couldn't even time the cam they both vetoed the whole idea. I'd much rather go with the rules they run at Pensacola (it's my understanding they use the same modified rules throughout the East Coast). They limit CID to 360 and there are some weight penalties for certain components. Everyone runs the same tire, but I thought it was the Hoosier slick. Anyway, ModRacer is right, with an 8in tire you can only get so much power to the ground. Our philosophy has been, give th driver as much as the track will take. For instance, we detune the motor and run a higher gear for CC to help the car hook up off the turn; at SAS we do just the opposite - max rpm with a low gear. Although if you've noticed, we tend to get beat on restarts at SAS so for Oktober Fast we are contemplating a gear change. Jim Parr, our engine man, is a genius with Holley carbs and cam timing and has made our motor pull past 8000 rpm with a totally legal 4412. But, I think it would be much cheaper in the long run to get that same or better performance with an open motor rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 8000 rpm!!! I think the rev chip fell out of your keyboard Before I go any farther, I want to say again that Marc and I are running TOWARD tams rules and AWAY from a deal where "the rule" was a $1200 head claim minus rockers, etc. Writing rules ALMOST always turns out better when the racers have minimal involvement Re: crates---> I fear them a little too but you have to admit, the guys who were testing multiple engines were looking for one with a favorable tolerance "stack" that made 5 more hp out of 475. The old 6's were 35K each and had crappy longevity. From the guy starting 36th in a 2nd hand car's point of view, he has an engine that is within 5 hp of the best one there and 20-25K in his budget that wasn't there last year. That's pretty impressive. Re: rules in Florida--->I ran into Bobby Blake in New Smyrna during speedweeks a few years ago and he was driving a pavement mod. It had slicks as I recall and I believe that he said it was some kind of a X dollar claim or 1/2 X dollars plus swap rule on engines. I saw them run at NS and at Orlando Speed World and they looked great. They were't so much like Featherlight's (like tams 14) in appearance as they were like late models without fenders. They looked more like tams 5 from what I can see from photos. -->AS I REREAD THIS I DIDN'T MEAN TO IMPLY THAT I DIDN'T LIKE THE DESIGN OF THE 14. I WAS JUST TRYING TO DESCRIBE WHAT THE CARS IN FLORIDA LOOKED LIKE. IN FACT, I'M PLANNING ON MODELING SOME OF MY ALUMINUM ON THE 14.<----- Re: does "restricted" cost more? Probably but on the other hand, it was said that the tires are the limiting factor in controlling the "excess" power. As I haven't driven one single lap in a tams car, you know that I can't be aiming the following at anyone in particular. In a sport that has undectible traction control, I don't believe there is such a thing as "excess power" anymore. The best way to minimize the effects of TC in a saturday night race is to get the power down to a level where having it(TC) is not that beneficial...as always, just my opinion. You guys sound like real racers to me. I'm really looking forward to this. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertx Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 RULES the more rules you have the more expensive it will cost you to race. the rich guys will always spend more money to maximumize what rules you have to work with. Look at what the cost is on restrictor plate engines even in ROMCO heard rumors of $60,000 for the last race at TMS. It's not the price of parts that make these engines that expensive it's the time in R&D FINDING THE RIGHT COMBOS that runs up the cost. In my mind keep the rules were they are execpt for the quick change rear ends and let the series grow i know of 4 to mods being built right now for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modracer Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Yeah the 14 and 28 are all built by Chris Swenson. They do look very good and the 14 is generally very quick. The 28 has been fast but I believe this is his first year driving in the series. As far as the racing aspect Jay you will love it. The speeds that the cars are turning are phenomal. They are almost as quick as the Romco cars and not near the expense. It should tell you something about the series when a Romco regular decides to get out of the series and get a car in the Tams series. The person that I am referring to is HE Nauman. Everytime he has gotten out of the car he has the biggest smile on his face and always tells how much fun these cars are over some of the others. Another thing about the rules are concerned is if you did have quick changes it would allow you to race at others tracks throughout the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonestar88 Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Sorry about leaving ya out jracer98, look forward to meeting you guys........ Keith Sandefur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hray Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 ModRacer, Just a minor correction. The 14 car (James Cole) is a new car built by Chris. He also built one for himself but wreaked it in the 1st SAS race and was running his dirt car until he wreaked it at SAS a month ago. Those are the only 2 Swenson chassis'. The 28 (Chris Snocker) is James' Hoover chassis from last year. Barry Codling (8), also fast, is a M&M chassis, Heinamen and Davidson run Dirt Works, Jerry Schild, Beddoe, and Gardner told me what their chassis' were, but I can't remember. The 77 (Jason Ray) is running a highly modified Heil chassis. I think that takes care of the top 5; maybe Shild, Beddoe, and Gardner can chime in. Bottom line is almost any chassis seems to work if set up right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jracer98 Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Keith...just having fun with you. We are coming down to Austin for the race on the 27th just to see what it's all about and scope out the cars. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modracer Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 You picked a good race to come to there should be a ton of cars out there. I think you truly will enjoy running the series and traveling. There has been a few races where all of the racers have gotten together and just BS and drank a few cold ones. We can always have one more person for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txtom Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Hey Modracer, Ya had better bring some extra beer--You announced pubicly on this forum about a few cold ones, and as soon as Big John hears about beer, he'll be there. He has someone read this forum to him every day...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ups88john Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 and when im real drunk, my mom types for me. im always down for a few cold ones, come by the 29 tsrs car at thr, and ill even share some cold ones with ya. big john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonestar88 Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Bigjohn. I'll be taking you up on the cold one's saturday.......see ya there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivicic Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 BEER, did someone say BEER? I guess I'll have to be there too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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