dirt

[postell69]

about how much toe out should i run in bomber car 79 monty stock suspen i have about 3/4 to 1 '' on right side out now was about 3 to 4

[ps 72]

thats a lot of toe

[poorboy]

try 1/8 to 1/4 should be a whole lot closer

[Harlin Covert]

Try 1/4 to 3/8 if your running a small track 1/4 mile. where are you running?

Harlin

[postell69]

sts and thanks for the infor ill try adjusting alittle at a time after heat race

[dt8435]

we start out with 1/8" on all of ours

[tricknology]

You should first center your steering gear,,, then set your toe.

 

#1, set toe to ZERO with both tie rods set at the same length ( Zerk to Zerk), when both tie rods have the same length and the toe is zero, the sterring gear is now centered (assuming your centerlink and pitman/idler arms anr not bent or worn.)

 

#2) then adjust your toe out an equal amount on both L & R tie rods.

 

For Asphalt ONLY Adjust your toe out on the right tie rod ONLY, this gives more toe out on turns ( akerman).

[HiTech]

for asphault only helps with bumpsteer to ..

[NickHolt]

You should first center your steering gear,,, then set your toe.

 

#1, set toe to ZERO with both tie rods set at the same length ( Zerk to Zerk), when both tie rods have the same length and the toe is zero, the sterring gear is now centered (assuming your centerlink and pitman/idler arms anr not bent or worn.)

 

#2) then adjust your toe out an equal amount on both L & R tie rods.

 

For Asphalt ONLY Adjust your toe out on the right tie rod ONLY, this gives more toe out on turns ( akerman).

 

Trick,

 

Have to disagree on a couple of points.

 

There is no absolute requirement to have both tie rods the same length. In fact, quite often we use different length tie rods as one of the ways to change the bump/roll steer in the direction we believe is needed for a particular track.

 

Also, the car cannot tell which side the toe is adjusted from. The car will follow the outside front tire with the inside tire either pulling the car towards the inside (toe out) or pushing the car towards the outside wall (toe in) as the car goes through the turn. The car feels the total toe, not just the amount of toe dialed into one side of the car or the other.

 

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from when you say that toe is Ackerman steering. It is not. Ackerman steering is determined by the relative position of the ball joint to the location of the steering knuckle. Toe is the static toe plus (or minus) whatever bump/roll steer is engineered into the linkages.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nick

[RockStan]

NICK DID YOU READ THE FIRST POST? i dont think this guy is to worried about bump/roll steer no disrespect postell but he poor guy was runnin 3-4" i mean i aint sure but he probably doesnt have much of an idea on alot of things you talk about............. but that is the only way to learn ............ ask questions and not have to steep of an answer.......... postell best thing you can do is go buy steve smiths street stock technology book and read it. then read it again. then read it again. you see where i am goin here ? it will teach you plenty of things you need to learn and his stuff is for asphalt and dirt. i think it is like 25 or 30 bucks and puts it all in to lehmans terms. alot better than a class in my opinion and a hole hell of alot cheaper. his stuff works too you will learn several "things" you can do to a car that are unless you have "super smart" tech men are not illegal but you dont have to take my word on it you could also ask leland waddell 1998 sas street stock champion and 1999 thr street stock champion who i believe in 99 also raced same car in llm at kyle and austin and pretty much never finished out of top 6 or 7

[postell69]

YOU ARE RIGHT I CAN DO ALOT OF MOTOR BUILDS BUT WHAT GOOD IS THAT IF YOU DONT KNOW ABOUT SET UP AS FAR AS TOE IN TOE OUT HOW MUCH AND I WILL GET THE BOOK TIME FOR ME TO GET SOME BOOK SMARTS THANKS FOR ADVICE TO EVERYONE I WAS RUNNING IN TOP 3 MOST OF LAST SEASON JUST COULDNT GET A GRIP ON SET UP GOING TO TRY THIS SEASON TO LEARN MORE LAST SEASON WAS MY FIRST NEVER WON NO RACES BUT DID END UP POINTS CHAMPION THANKS AGAIN AND THANK YOU NICK

[NickHolt]

NICK DID YOU READ THE FIRST POST?

 

RockStan,

 

Yes I did. And I think folks answered his question rather well. I was not responding to the his, however. I was responding to the post by tricknology.

 

By the way, ask Waddy if he got anything out of my seminar when he attended. he told me he learned a lot from that class - especially things he really didn't have a good handle on (pun intended) before taking the seminar.

 

And yes, in my seminars I always recommend Steve Smith's books, among others. He has a solid understanding of many of the suspension engineering concepts.

 

Nick

[tricknology]

Dear Mr. Nick Holt,

 

I am responding to your post,,,

 

Trick,

 

Have to disagree on a couple of points.

 

There is no absolute requirement to have both tie rods the same length. In fact, quite often we use different length tie rods as one of the ways to change the bump/roll steer in the direction we believe is needed for a particular track.

 

Also, the car cannot tell which side the toe is adjusted from. The car will follow the outside front tire with the inside tire either pulling the car towards the inside (toe out) or pushing the car towards the outside wall (toe in) as the car goes through the turn. The car feels the total toe, not just the amount of toe dialed into one side of the car or the other.

 

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from when you say that toe is Ackerman steering. It is not. Ackerman steering is determined by the relative position of the ball joint to the location of the steering knuckle. Toe is the static toe plus (or minus) whatever bump/roll steer is engineered into the linkages.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nick

Mr. Holt, I never meant to imply that "" that toe is Ackerman steering"",, what I meant was that UNequal tie rod lengths on stock production type race cars Do affect Ackerman (toe out on turns).

 

To illustrate the point I will over simplify things,,,

 

for the simplest example we will use a go-kart / lawn tractor steering system which is a solid suspension with no springs or independent suspension.

 

All go karts and lawn tractors have Ackerman built into the spindle steering arms.

 

The tie rods run from the steering arms to a pitman arm located at the end of the steering shaft.

 

When the wheels are pointed straight, this pitman arm is also pointed straight (12 or 6 O'clock position),

and both tie rods are the same length.

 

To illustrate that UN equal tie rods do affect toe out on turns (Ackerman),,,

 

We will set the pitman arm at 45 degrees form straight ahead, and shorten one tie rod and lengthen the other until the wheels are pointed strait ahead with zero toe.

 

Pit man arm = turned 45 degrees from straight.

 

Wheels = straight ahead.

 

Toe = zero

 

tie rods = one tie rod is a LOT longer that the opposite tie rod.

 

The Spindle's Steering arms have Ackerman built in.

The angle of the steering arms (Ackerman) = 45 degrees, (for illustration purposes).

 

 

We have the wheels on degreed turn tables.

 

Now turn the wheel 22 degrees to the left, read both turn tables, calculate the toe in degrees.

 

Then turn the wheel back to the straight ahead position,

 

Now turn the wheel to the right 22 degrees, read both turn tables, calculate the toe in degrees.

 

The left and right toe out in turns will NOT match.

[NickHolt]

1) Ackerman steering angles built into the steering linkage produces toe changes.

2) Roll/Bump steer (differing lengths/angles of the tie rods verses the control arms) produces toe changes.

3) Static Toe settings do not produce toe changes.

 

Ackerman steering angles and Roll/Bump Steer are two different systems that both produce toe chages in the dymanic state.

 

Going back to your example, if that tractor had zero Ackerman, zero roll/bump steer and zero static toe, as long as the tie rods are more or less the same length (within a few inches), there will be no toe change as the tractor turns. However, the steering will be difficult since the inner wheel has to turn at a sharper angle than the outter wheel. In the days of horse and buggies (no wise cracks about my age, please), this lack of toe change while cornering would pop the hubs from the wooded spokes. A gentleman named Ackerman came up with the technology (angled steering knuckles) to prevent that from happening.

 

I'm just trying to clarify this issue.

 

Nick

[tricknology]

Dear Mr. Holt,

 

so, Your asertion that un-equal length tie rods do not affect toe out on turns,,, is only valid on vehicles that do not have ackerman built into the spindles steering arms.

 

but , Ackerman-less vehicles do not exsist, all race cars, production cars, trucks, go karts and Lawn tractors, have ackerman built into the spindles steering arms!

 

Therefor, on race cars based on production cars , UN- equal length tie rods WILL affect toe out on turns.

 

Or am i wrong?

[NickHolt]

but , Ackerman-less vehicles do not exsist, all race cars, production cars, trucks, go karts and Lawn tractors, have ackerman built into the spindles steering arms!

 

There are many, many race cars built with zero Ackerman. Also, there are many upper level race cars that have Ackerman adjustments available, including zero Ackerman.

 

The length of the tie rods does not affect Ackerman steering (see above).

 

The length and angles of the tie rods do, however, affect the amount of dynamic toe out/in (called roll steer or bump steer). So, in the sense that tie rod length impacts the amount of roll/bump steer, then yes, the length of the tie rods does affect the amount of toe gain or loss during cornering, but does not affect the amount of Ackerman steering present in the car.

 

Nick

[tricknology]

Dear Mr. holt,

 

I will respectfully agree to disagree,,,

 

In my humble opinion,,,,

 

on race cars based on production cars ,that use stock steering systems, and stock splindles, all of which have Ackerman built into the spindle's steering arms from the factory,,,, UN- equal length tie rods WILL affect toe out on turns.

 

 

In most stock type classes the cars use stock spindles that have ackerman built in from the factory.

 

 

 

In the VERY few cases that a vehicle does not have ackerman built into the spindle's steering arms ( some nascar teams feel that because of radial tires ackerman is not needed) then , yes un-equal length tie rods do not affect toe out on turns.

 

I do not know of any short track (1/4 to 1/2 mile ) chassis builders that built their suspensions to have no toe out on turns.

 

but I am always willing to learn,,, So, which short track chassis builders that you know of, make their suspensions to have no toe out on turns.???

 

2 of the biggest short track chassis buildes,,,Howe and Port city have suspensions that employ toe out on turns.

[mudpacker]

With radial tires and the stiffer sidewall american racers on short tracks, toe-in with anti-ackerman is better in most cases with the BBSS setups.

[j.j.&s.racing]

THE KEY HERE IS CENTERED FRONT END.BUT IF THE TIRES YOU THINK ARE STAIGHT ARNT THE STEERING BOX AND CENTER LINK CENTER THEM SELVES BACK UP.SO CHECKING TIRE TEMPS IT COULD SEEM IT HAD ACKERMAN IN IT BUT NOT REALLY.TOE OUT THE RIGHT ONLY WOULD DO THE SAMETHING.ACKERMAN IS THE RELATION OF ANGAL AND LENTH.THEY ALL ZERO THEMSELVES OUT. DOWN THE STRAGHT AWAY.

[Rookie49]

Tricknology,

I must respectfully ask you if you have any idea who the hell you are arguing suspension engineering with. This is argument no win for you. Most of what you are arguing is above my head, but I do know that Nick Knows what he is talking about.

[1-Crew]

Tricknology,

 

Ideally, the length of the tie rod will be equal to the length of the lower control arm. This is the basis for bump steer since in most production vehicles, the height of the tie rod is not the same as the lower control arm so in bump (compression) or extension, the two arms will move through the same arc but from a different vertice. If the arms are not parallel then bump steer is present. If the arms are different lengths, the bump steer is present.

 

Unless something is drastically bent, the relative length of the tie rod for the range of normal toe setting will not be enough to measurably affect either bump or ackerman.

 

Jack Foy

[jumbo]

I'm glad I took the time to sit here on this rainy morning to read all this. As soon as it clears up some I think I'm going to apply some of this info to see if I can get some lower mow times out of my lawn tractor.

[sprintsrule]

Wow. No wonder I like driving them instead of working on them.